chelseacol

Hastings Track Conditions

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1 hour ago, Berri said:

 Absolutely no way would I have watered before the meeting. That brief wet bomb was enough to ensure slipiness of the track didn't occur if the right grasses and length of grass was sorted. 

Crazy talk not the view of local trainers they were of the opinion that there would have been 90 % chance of no racing if irrigation hadn't taking place with the rain they had on the night / morning

Irrigation started two Thursdays before so they were on to it .They did a good job under the circumstances which they can control.

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What I still don't understand is;

- They put 14mls on Tues evening and claim it was only a dead 4 on Weds (i.e. only went from a 3 to a 4).

- There was only 7mls of rain on Fri night/Sat morning and it goes from a dead 5 (Fri afters) to a slow 9 Sat morn ??

I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up. 

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7 minutes ago, Mattski said:

What I still don't understand is;

- They put 14mls on Tues evening and claim it was only a dead 4 on Weds (i.e. only went from a 3 to a 4).

- There was only 7mls of rain on Fri night/Sat morning and it goes from a dead 5 (Fri afters) to a slow 9 Sat morn ??

I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up. 

Hmmm as I have mentioned before Mattski. The pentrometer when taken indicated an eight on the morning but the stipes put at nine presumably it may have been still raining at the time . So really you don't know ,if it was the better side of eight  so could conceivably only shifted the pentrometer a couple of points if it was the worst side of 5 Friday afternoon. Prior to Tuesday the temperature/ weather may have so high the 14 mls put on was soaked up by the ground quite readily having little effect to the pentrometer reading.It was cold and threatening rain on late Friday  so there would have been no drying out after the 5 pentrometer reading.. 

 

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2 hours ago, Whyisit said:

Crazy talk not the view of local trainers they were of the opinion that there would have been 90 % chance of no racing if irrigation hadn't taking place with the rain they had on the night / morning

Irrigation started two Thursdays before so they were on to it .They did a good job under the circumstances which they can control.

ok, who were the local trainers that were of the opinion that what happened here was a satisfactory outcome?

 

because from what ive gathered, most see it as a normal and regular f##k up from the track manager.  I agree with Berri and others, if they have a half decent track, with the right soil structure and grass length, then with no irrigation and a bit of rain they should of been fine. 

 

regardless though, 14mm is crazy, just crazy, especially as at that time rain was forecast.

 

I challenge you to offer names of these local trainers who throught what they did was right?  Because it would be easy to verify.

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1 hour ago, Varro said:

ok, who were the local trainers that were of the opinion that what happened here was a satisfactory outcome .

read what  I've written 

 

because from what ive gathered, most see it as a normal and regular f##k up from the track manager.  I agree with Berri and others, if they have a half decent track, with the right soil structure and grass length, then with no irrigation and a bit of rain they should of been fine. 

well they haven't according to you and others got a good track  what do expect the caretaker do import a new one in for you and Berri.  Remember the staff have to do with what they have .Maybe they should transfer the 3 days to Wairoa next year if the local trainers aren't happy with the track

what I have been saying the staff have managed/controlled the situation and had a days racing it seems the only ones that aren't happy are the posters and  on here and RB as Puha has said. My take on the actual days Racing shifted the notorious HB inside track bias and inside draw advantage to favour the opposite. SO WHAT GIVES

 

regardless though, 14mm is crazy, just crazy, especially as at that time rain was forecast. 

As Porky posted earlier the track had enough give in it with a heel impression at the 100m peg . To produce a safe track for Saturday enough water had to be applied to carry it through to Raceday regardless of whether it rained or not .To little and it rains on the day could have produced a slippery track. With enough moisture in the track as it transpires (with the rain on the day) the horses were able to get good deep enough traction with no reports of slipping.Its unfortunate that the track camber carries water to the inside of the track when irrigating and it happens at most track that irrigate. For a caretaker it's damned if you do and damned if you don't .

I challenge you to offer names of these local trainers who throught what they did was right?  Because it would be easy to verify.

I see this has become a vendetta against HB staff by some trainers and and maybe owners going by what you have said earlier and I do not wish to entangle anyone into this vendetta. I can assure you that what I have written is correct.

I do not have any association with Staff Members of the HB Racing or Trainers.      Views are MHO

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mattski said:

What I still don't understand is;

- They put 14mls on Tues evening and claim it was only a dead 4 on Weds (i.e. only went from a 3 to a 4).

- There was only 7mls of rain on Fri night/Sat morning and it goes from a dead 5 (Fri afters) to a slow 9 Sat morn ??

I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up. 

Irrigation and rainfall are not the same. One spreads water unevenly and can be affected by the wind etc arc of sprinklers etc . Rainfall pretty much drops water evenly across the track . 

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15 hours ago, Whyisit said:

Tell me Berri do you have 500 kg horses galloping at full speed at any of your data points to qualify your assumptions.

Me thinks that you're trying to defend the un-defendable. Probably close to the action. Read what I wrote. I said IF you had a weather station with soil sensors around the track this shit wouldn't keep happening. It cost us $750 to run Snapshot. He did what we thought he would do and we looked after him. The club should be giving our money back because he had to leave on the float at 5.30am, withdrawals were meant to be made by 6.00am but we were only told of the track conditions at 6.30. The horse was already in the float and on his way and the rules said we couldn't late scratch because there wasn't a downgrade. A farce!! The horse went off paying $6.50 and he was a 100/1 chance because we knew he wouldn't handle the track. Who got pinged?  We did and the punters did. A joke.

I also read the irrigation report and it doesn't stack up IF you knew what the weather was going to do. The track changed from a 4 to a 9 on 7mls of rain. Don't give me the "wouldn't have been able to race" line because the only way that could have happened is if the grass was cut incorrectly based on the state of the track post irrigation (i.e. 14mls Tuesday). 7mls on Friday can't take a track from a 5 to a 9 without a stuff up before hand. There is no other way to interpret it. As for having a 500kg horse galloping at full speed to see what the track condition is like....that is easy. I would simply put 20 accelerometers around the track (cost $250 each) and run a horse on it before the races or before any irrigation. The resultant data will accurately tell me the track conditions. Or I could pull a ground truth radar behind a quad bike and see where all the moisture in the soil was. That way I could actually tell you accurately where the wet patches were and how wet each one was. Good for the punters.

People ....this technology is available.

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1 hour ago, Berri said:

Me thinks that you're trying to defend the un-defendable. Probably close to the action. Read what I wrote. I said IF you had a weather station with soil sensors around the track this shit wouldn't keep happening. It cost us $750 to run Snapshot. He did what we thought he would do and we looked after him. The club should be giving our money back because he had to leave on the float at 5.30am, withdrawals were meant to be made by 6.00am but we were only told of the track conditions at 6.30. The horse was already in the float and on his way and the rules said we couldn't late scratch because there wasn't a downgrade. A farce!! The horse went off paying $6.50 and he was a 100/1 chance because we knew he wouldn't handle the track. Who got pinged?  We did and the punters did. A joke.

I also read the irrigation report and it doesn't stack up IF you knew what the weather was going to do. The track changed from a 4 to a 9 on 7mls of rain. Don't give me the "wouldn't have been able to race" line because the only way that could have happened is if the grass was cut incorrectly based on the state of the track post irrigation (i.e. 14mls Tuesday). 7mls on Friday can't take a track from a 5 to a 9 without a stuff up before hand. There is no other way to interpret it. As for having a 500kg horse galloping at full speed to see what the track condition is like....that is easy. I would simply put 20 accelerometers around the track (cost $250 each) and run a horse on it before the races or before any irrigation. The resultant data will accurately tell me the track conditions. Or I could pull a ground truth radar behind a quad bike and see where all the moisture in the soil was. That way I could actually tell you accurately where the wet patches were and how wet each one was. Good for the punters.

People ....this technology is available.

Shit I thought scratching time was 7.30 Berri.when did it change?  What a joke you are ,glad you contributed to the clubs coffers by not scratching.

So you can guarantee weather as well that’s a big  IF  you would be better selling that technology .

So you have a vested interest in a business in trying to analyse/sell data to produce a track suitable for Snapshot to race on.

tell me what data can you produce to prevent a change in track conditions after 7.30am scratching time and it rains solid from then to first race time

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5 hours ago, Berri said:

Me thinks that you're trying to defend the un-defendable. Probably close to the action. Read what I wrote. I said IF you had a weather station with soil sensors around the track this shit wouldn't keep happening. It cost us $750 to run Snapshot. He did what we thought he would do and we looked after him. The club should be giving our money back because he had to leave on the float at 5.30am, withdrawals were meant to be made by 6.00am but we were only told of the track conditions at 6.30. The horse was already in the float and on his way and the rules said we couldn't late scratch because there wasn't a downgrade. A farce!! The horse went off paying $6.50 and he was a 100/1 chance because we knew he wouldn't handle the track. Who got pinged?  We did and the punters did. A joke.

I also read the irrigation report and it doesn't stack up IF you knew what the weather was going to do. The track changed from a 4 to a 9 on 7mls of rain. Don't give me the "wouldn't have been able to race" line because the only way that could have happened is if the grass was cut incorrectly based on the state of the track post irrigation (i.e. 14mls Tuesday). 7mls on Friday can't take a track from a 5 to a 9 without a stuff up before hand. There is no other way to interpret it. As for having a 500kg horse galloping at full speed to see what the track condition is like....that is easy. I would simply put 20 accelerometers around the track (cost $250 each) and run a horse on it before the races or before any irrigation. The resultant data will accurately tell me the track conditions. Or I could pull a ground truth radar behind a quad bike and see where all the moisture in the soil was. That way I could actually tell you accurately where the wet patches were and how wet each one was. Good for the punters.

People ....this technology is available.

That's unfortunate you were travelling so far . Maybe you should of called someone local before the transporter left to see if they had overnight rain or if in fact it was raining as you were loading up and made a judgement call . Maybe your transporting company needs to time departure just after the track reading comes out ? Don't think the club owes you a bean as they did nothing wrong as most people would agree with .

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17 minutes ago, hesi said:

Caught the back end of Weigh In the other night.

David Ellis, defending Castles, best there is etc etc.  He said if they had not watered, the track would have been an F1 on race day if it had not rained, and horses that raced would have had to be sidelined for 4-5 weeks.

Since when, has there ever been an F1 track in Spring in NZ.  I thought the only time you ever get to being F1 is in the middle of a hot dry Summer.  The Thames January meeting for instance.

The same way Ellis defended Te Rapa after their debacle.

This isn't an isolated case, It isn't just Hastings that are at fault, all everyone can do at the moment is complain about the tracks being to wet and needing an all-weather etc when the amateur hour that NZ Racing is continues to have repeated cases of over watering/irrigating tracks!.

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Saw that in my previous post I made a typo re scratching time. Simply redact that. As these events were managed by the trainer, and not me, the decision making was in her capable hands. The actual sequence I am told is still accurate.

Who said anything about guaranteeing the weather? You really that much of an imbecile that (1) you could think that anyone could and (2) that your interpretation of my post made you think that.

To spell it out for you, simply and plainly, and please read slowly so that it sinks in, weather data and soil sensors implemented around the track will only help the decision making process in respect of race surface management and reporting. If you don't get that then go somewhere appropriate and get some help.

as for the barb about having a vested interest, I fully admit I do. ...absolutely and thoroughly. I am sick of mismanagement or lack of process where absolutely no-one is accountable and no-one takes the blame. We continue to provide a dis-service to the industry as a whole by not embracing modern methods and technology in the management of the industry. Every time an event of this nature occurs, it drags us down one more step. I shouldn't have to ring a mate, or any club, or anyone for that matter, in order to fully and accurately understand the status of a track. This info should be readily available and be accurate. It should not be debatable and subject to potential ridicule. This can be managed using technology.

The other thing that gets me going is self motivated defence of something that really shouldn't be defended. Whystand....I don't understand your motivation. The track turned very quickly and although you profess to having no link to the club, or you wish to convey this, your defence of the situation would suggest otherwise....hence my reservations in respect of motivation.

mine is to improve things, offer banter and maybe, just maybe, reach out to someone in charge, or who cares enough to send an email or pick up the phone and ask what can be done to improve something that is continually a bone of contention and happens on multiple occasions.

What are you trying to convey Whystand?

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So Whyistand....are you Formpro's track walker Brendan? I do note your assurance to us that "I do not have any association with Staff Members of the HB Racing or Trainers".

Simply trying to understand why you've gone to bat with a split bat.

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On 9/27/2017 at 8:08 AM, hesi said:

Caught the back end of Weigh In the other night.

David Ellis, defending Castles, best there is etc etc.  He said if they had not watered, the track would have been an F1 on race day if it had not rained, and horses that raced would have had to be sidelined for 4-5 weeks.

Since when, has there ever been an F1 track in Spring in NZ.  I thought the only time you ever get to being F1 is in the middle of a hot dry Summer.  The Thames January meeting for instance.

JB was espousing it was a F2 two Thursday’s before Saturday’s race and that the club were going to irrigate . Great possibility to have gone to a F1 without rain or irrigating.

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1 hour ago, Whyisit said:

JB was espousing it was a F2 two Thursday’s before Saturday’s race and that the club were going to irrigate . Great possibility to have gone to a F1 without rain or irrigating.

I did my picks for a tipping contest on here on Wednesday and from memory the TAB said it was a D6 then. How the heck did it get to a S9 by Saturday morning?? 

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2 hours ago, Whyisit said:

JB was espousing it was a F2 two Thursday’s before Saturday’s race and that the club were going to irrigate . Great possibility to have gone to a F1 without rain or irrigating.

If you believe that Brendon then you'll believe in the Fairy Godfather. I've looked at the historics of some of our weather stations that are close by and the soil probes attached to them. And just in case you doubting Thomas's think I tell porkies, I've attached where those weather stations are. They work and don't lie. Either everyone's so used to the wet that they now think a dead 4 now looks like a Firm 2, or some idiot doesn't know how to read a track and put too much water on, or the water they put on was done in a time frame too short, or some idiot didn't look at the weather forecast before they put it on during Friday evening, or the amount they put on doesn't have correct gauges or someone is telling porkies. Now that we know what your role was, Brendon, why don't you tell us your theories as to how a dead4 turned into a slow 9 with 14mm of irrigation and 7mm of rain over a three day period when there had been so little rain that people are telling you it would have been a F1 if it hadn't been irrigated. Are you finally understanding the problem with that fused concept?

Hastings weather.doc

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On 9/27/2017 at 8:44 AM, Berri said:

Who said anything about guaranteeing the weather? You really that much of an imbecile that (1) you could think that anyone could and (2) that your interpretation of my post made you think that.

.......We continue to provide a dis-service to the industry as a whole by not embracing modern methods and technology in the management of the industry. Every time an event of this nature occurs, it drags us down one more step. I shouldn't have to ring a mate, or any club, or anyone for that matter, in order to fully and accurately understand the status of a track. This info should be readily available and be accurate. It should not be debatable and subject to potential ridicule. This can be managed using technology.

What are you trying to convey Whystand?

Hi Burree    I guess you read the followingClub posting after Saturday (it’s under the meeting news on Nztr website very transparent no doubt accurate enough to fulfil the needs of everybody who is really interested needs bar you.

A horse from the Lowry/Cullen Stable galloped on the course proper yesterday(Tuesday)morning with the rider indicating a track in the Dead4/Good3 range. The penetrometer reading suggested a Good3 track. After forecast rain only delivered 1.5mm yesterday irrigation was applied to the Hastings track Tuesday evening. 14mm of irrigation was applied with the rating this morning a Dead4.

Since Tuesday 12 September in the vicinity of 50mm of irrigation has been applied as forecast rain has continually failed to materialize(there has been just 4.6mm of rain at the track since Tarzino Trophy day, September 2). There is now some rain forecast for Thursday afternoon with clearing weather predicted Friday and Saturday.

 

It was nice of you to vicariously defend that .  “Who said anything about guaranteeing the weather? You really that much of an imbecile that (1) you could think that anyone could and (2) that your interpretation of my post made you think that.”

Yet you and others on this website cannot extend the same courtesy to the Club and Staff . (Re 1 above) and happily try to make scrapegoats of them  . I asked you a question in a posting earlier and I will repost it here because you never answered it because you couldn’t .

tell me what data can you produce to prevent a change in track conditions after 7.30am scratching time and it rains solid from then to first race time.

The same applies to the Club they can’t do anything if it rains only mitigate the dangers to avoid postponement of the meeting.

 

  IMHO they Club and staff handled everything appropriately

 I will give them a pass mark on starting irrigation as early as they did.

I will give them a pass mark on communication  very transparent up to date using the best technology via the website to keep everybody informed.

I will give them a pass mark for applying the 14 mls on Tuesday night reasons that I have give in previous postings

I will give them a pass mark for not cutting the grass (refer to Berri’s posting ) I have to agree with him there.

I will give a pass mark in producing the Raceday under trying weather wise conditions  with no adverse events occurring .

i will give them a big pass mark in producing a dream result in the Group 1   Three top horses in the finish couldn’t have scripted it better.

I also like to add that the local trainers were happy with what happened  5 or so had horses in and not one scratched apart from JB’s ballotted out horse. (Tongue in cheek Varro)  Roydon was the only one not happy .

that is MHO

 

i know what’s going to happen next  so I have done a little alteration to the Clubs posting  for those who can’t spot the difference I have highlighted it

 

A horse from the Lowry/Cullen Stable galloped on the course proper yesterday(Tuesday)morning with the rider indicating a track in the Dead4/Good3 range. The penetrometer reading suggested a Good3 track. After forecast rain only delivered 1.5mm yesterday rain did fall Tuesday evening. 14mm of rain fell with the rating this morning a Dead4.

Since Tuesday 12 September in the vicinity of 50mm of irrigation has been applied as forecast rain has continually failed to materialize(there has been just 4.6mm of rain at the track since Tarzino Trophy day, September 2). There is now some rain forecast for Thursday afternoon with clearing weather predicted Friday and Saturday.

 

Now you see that nothing has changed in the moisture tally  just who has applied it. 

Tell me who do you blame, hold accountable under this circumstance Berri if the run up to Raceday was exactly the same .?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'll bite because I'm hungry and it's late. Let's start with this. Your comment....

"tell me what data can you produce to prevent a change in track conditions after 7.30am scratching time and it rains solid from then to first race time.

Not sure what planet you're from as no data can prevent a track change....sooo....let's simply say that your prose isn't up to scratch.

I'm a believer that with the right sensors and systems and historic data and good turf management, a person could have set up the track infinitely better IF they had been keen weather watchers and understood what only 7mm of rain does to the track to make it a heavy 9. You still don't get it. Tracks can't be an ice skating rink with a dead 9 MINUS 7mm of rain. The track was far worse than that, probably prior to the last irrigation because there hadn't been any rain....OR the full story as to how much water was put on the track is different from the official version.

I am only too willing and committed to having our tracks save so that our horses and jockeys make it home in one piece. But this obviously isn't one of those cases. Many horse owners paid up for the cost of running with no chance of recouping and I feel sorry for the punters, especially those who backed Snapshot. He was no show on that track. I can't help but wonder what the betting figures were like because many that I know didn't punt because of the track conditions. And here you are, happy to give a bunch of pass marks because you stomp around the track trying to push your heal into the turf whilst trying to make an assessment of the track. This time you were wrong, as was someone else in charge of that track. The sums don't add up and that's the problem.

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On 9/27/2017 at 1:41 PM, Berri said:

So Whyistand....are you Formpro's track walker Brendan? I do note your assurance to us that "I do not have any association with Staff Members of the HB Racing or Trainers".

Simply trying to understand why you've gone to bat with a split bat.

Message to Brendan . it’s unfortunate that your name has been proffered by a racecafer indicating you are posting under Whyisit .

my apologies for this happening as you realise that it is out of my control.

All I can say is that this gentlleman/businessman went way out of bounds and still continues to do so.

Unfortunately he cannot accept that it could be someone away from the track but I do get some feeling some anti between himself and the Club,Club Staff or trainers.May I am wrong .

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2 hours ago, Berri said:

I'll bite because I'm hungry and it's late. Let's start with this. Your comment....

"tell me what data can you produce to prevent a change in track conditions after 7.30am scratching time and it rains solid from then to first race time.

 

2 hours ago, Whyisit said:

. I asked you a question in a posting earlier and I will repost it here because you never answered it because you couldn’t .

tell me what data can you produce to prevent a change in track conditions after 7.30am scratching time and it rains solid from then to first race time.

The same applies to the Club they can’t do anything if it rains only mitigate the dangers to avoid postponement of the meeting.

 

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I don't have anything against anyone and to say I have is being disingenuous. I haven't criticised the club, I've criticised the process. If you don't have the tools how can you manage the process. This inconsistent reporting of track conditions, or final execution of race surfaces is a shambles.

you are in fact trying very hard to defend the indefensible. You don't actually get the logic for the concern so you shouldn't be debating this. That you have with such conviction means you have/ had a vested interest in the outcome. So are you telling us that you are not Brendon? A simple yes or no will suffice.

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Whyisit - just accept they made an error of judgement to firstly apply irrigation and more importantly to apply 14mm in one go.

As soon as they decided to do those two things they were vulnerable if any rain arrived to a downgrade of the track beyond the dead 4 they were aiming for.

It rained (as was forecast) and they produced a track which was slow 9.

They stuffed up. Its only reasonable that questions are asked.

Col

 

PS - using Ellis as a character witness after his horse won the big race on track conditions which suited it is a nonsense. 

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1 hour ago, chelseacol said:

Whyisit - just accept they made an error of judgement to firstly apply irrigation and more importantly to apply 14mm in one go.

As soon as they decided to do those two things they were vulnerable if any rain arrived to a downgrade of the track beyond the dead 4 they were aiming for.

It rained (as was forecast) and they produced a track which was slow 9.

Col.

In case you haven’t looked. Again from the NZTR website freely available at all times.I think the Club went out of their way to have it available.

I have highlighted one important day  that nobody seems to have mentioned which could have been to pivotal to the explaining the why this so called stuff up occurred. I notice Col that you have made no mention of it and even Berri admits he can’t forecast the weather as well.

Race Day
Weather: Cloudy
Track: Slow 9
Rail: Out 4m | 7mm Rain Overnight
Weather and Track updated at 6.59am Saturday 23 September

Friday Afternoon
Weather: Overcast
Track: Dead 5
Rail: Out 4m | No Rain today
Weather and Track updated at 4.20pm Friday 22 September

Friday Morning
Weather: Fine
Track: Dead 6
Rail: Out 4m | 8mm Rain Overnight
Weather and Track updated at 8.45am Friday 22 September


Weather Update
Weather: Was Cloudy now Raining 
Track: Dead 4
Rail: Out 4m | 0.2mm Rain overnight 
Weather and Track updated at 4.45pm Thursday 21 September

Weather Update
Weather: Was Raining now Cloudy
Track: Dead 4
Rail: Out 4m | 0.2mm Rain overnight 
Weather and Track updated at 12.57pm Thursday 21 September

Weather Update
Weather: Was Overcast now Raining
Track: Dead 4
Rail: Out 4m | 0.2mm Rain overnight 
Weather and Track updated at 12.57pm Thursday 21 September

Thursday Morning
Weather: Overcast
Track: Dead 4
Rail: Out 4m | 0.2mm Rain overnight 
Weather and Track updated at 9.07am Thursday 21 September

Withdrawal Morning
Weather: Fine
Track: Dead 4
Rail: Out 4m | 1mm Rain Yesterday afternoon | 14mm Irrigation Overnight
Weather and Track updated at 9.06am Wednesday 20 September

Nomination Morning
Weather: Fine
Track: Good 3
Rail: Out 4m | 0.4mm rain this morning
Weather and Track updated at 9.09am Tuesday 19 September

 

 

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Race Day
Weather: Cloudy
Track: Slow 9
Rail: Out 4m | 7mm Rain Overnight
Weather and Track updated at 6.59am Saturday 23 September

Friday Afternoon
Weather: Overcast
Track: Dead 5
Rail: Out 4m | No Rain today
Weather and Track updated at 4.20pm Friday 22 September

 

You have just highlighted the issue perfectly Whyisit. This is what everyone is concerned about. SOMETHING doesn't add up!!!! A DEAD 5 on Friday evening at 4:20pm, 7mm of rain overnight and suddenly it's a SLOW 9 by 7:00am Saturday??????? Are you kidding me and everyone else?????????? 

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Hi Whyisit

I followed the track conditions and the updates on NZTR every day that week (and the week prior to that I was looking at long range forecasts - it's a bit sad but for big meetings like that or those I have a horse running in I start building up to the day or pondering likely track conditions some way out)

As Lloyd points out the deterioration of the track over the last 24 hours does raise questions.

So does the fact they irrigated so heavily when rain was possible later in the week. And why 14mm - why not a lesser amount with an option of applying more later in the week if needed ?

Bottom line with the rain they had there is no way it should have been slow 9.

End of day I'm not after heads rolling or anything like that. But a bit of honesty here that they produced a wet track on a day it should have been in the dead range would be nice.

Let me finish by asking you - would they do it again ????

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