SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 20, 2017 Who is doing the ratings now? Is Quirke back? I could go on and on every week, but there's not enough space. This weekend again proves Strictland has no idea what he is doing, and not taking into mitigating circumstances. At Taupo, Worldclass won it's second Rating 65 in a row (gone up only 8 points for two wins in a row) - after losing 2 points when eased up after being checked in its previous race. At Te Rapa, Youwantmore won another Rating 75 - after LOSING ONE POINT (to 72) by running 6th in the Open Handicap Listed Taumarunui Gold Cup. How does that work? In the Foxbridge Plate. Underthemoonlight wins her 5th race and gets 4points winning, now on 101 and now rated above Bonneval (R100) - double Oaks winner. Perfect Fit get unsuitable track and rider didn't knock her around in the ground, loses 2 points to 97. Shes a Group 1 & 2 winner and placed twice in G1 and she now get 2kgs less than Underthemoonlight in a handicap. Lucyinrio, firstly shouldnt have been in the race being rated 79. Only qualified through stupid conditions (ran 3rd beating a average lot of F&M SW+P). She loses a point in this field? This comes a week after Handicapper changed Nicoletta and Devise ratings? This shows Strictland doesn't know what he's doing? And something should be done about it. Come on Mr NEW CEO - do something? All the ratings are just a mess. ivanthegreat and La Zip 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlog 44 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, SilverHawk said: Who is doing the ratings now? Is Quirke back? I could go on and on every week, but there's not enough space. This weekend again proves Strictland has no idea what he is doing, and not taking into mitigating circumstances. At Taupo, Worldclass won it's second Rating 65 in a row (gone up only 8 points for two wins in a row) - after losing 2 points when eased up after being checked in its previous race. At Te Rapa, Youwantmore won another Rating 75 - after LOSING ONE POINT (to 72) by running 6th in the Open Handicap Listed Taumarunui Gold Cup. How does that work? In the Foxbridge Plate. Underthemoonlight wins her 5th race and gets 4points winning, now on 101 and now rated above Bonneval (R100) - double Oaks winner. Perfect Fit get unsuitable track and rider didn't knock her around in the ground, loses 2 points to 97. Shes a Group 1 & 2 winner and placed twice in G1 and she now get 2kgs less than Underthemoonlight in a handicap. Lucyinrio, firstly shouldnt have been in the race being rated 79. Only qualified through stupid conditions (ran 3rd beating a average lot of F&M SW+P). She loses a point in this field? This comes a week after Handicapper changed Nicoletta and Devise ratings? This shows Strictland doesn't know what he's doing? And something should be done about it. Come on Mr NEW CEO - do something? All the ratings are just a mess. I Agree! I find it really interesting that Bonneval is only a rating 100, especially in comparison to Jon Snow (104) Especially now that Underthemoonlight is now on 101 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
puha 2,177 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 3 hours ago, SilverHawk said: Who is doing the ratings now? Is Quirke back? I could go on and on every week, but there's not enough space. This weekend again proves Strictland has no idea what he is doing, and not taking into mitigating circumstances. At Taupo, Worldclass won it's second Rating 65 in a row (gone up only 8 points for two wins in a row) - after losing 2 points when eased up after being checked in its previous race. At Te Rapa, Youwantmore won another Rating 75 - after LOSING ONE POINT (to 72) by running 6th in the Open Handicap Listed Taumarunui Gold Cup. How does that work? In the Foxbridge Plate. Underthemoonlight wins her 5th race and gets 4points winning, now on 101 and now rated above Bonneval (R100) - double Oaks winner. Perfect Fit get unsuitable track and rider didn't knock her around in the ground, loses 2 points to 97. Shes a Group 1 & 2 winner and placed twice in G1 and she now get 2kgs less than Underthemoonlight in a handicap. Lucyinrio, firstly shouldnt have been in the race being rated 79. Only qualified through stupid conditions (ran 3rd beating a average lot of F&M SW+P). She loses a point in this field? This comes a week after Handicapper changed Nicoletta and Devise ratings? This shows Strictland doesn't know what he's doing? And something should be done about it. Come on Mr NEW CEO - do something? All the ratings are just a mess. The rating 65 is stuffed in its present form . Take Worldclass race only 1st and second got rating points .So with the bottleneck in this class how do you get consistent starts if you are running just out of the first 2 placings? Especially if you are around the 59/61 rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inside edge 23 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, puha said: The rating 65 is stuffed in its present form . Take Worldclass race only 1st and second got rating points .So with the bottleneck in this class how do you get consistent starts if you are running just out of the first 2 placings? Especially if you are around the 59/61 rating. You dont to put it simply.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
puha 2,177 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 45 minutes ago, inside edge said: You dont to put it simply.... Probably not but I'm sure your smart enough to work out . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
berzerk 107 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 Handicap ratings - you win/place they go up, unplaced you go down. They are fluid and purely where a horse sits at any point in time. Anomalies are very easy to find, and some would argue they define, and are a driver of betting markets. For example, while I believe Perfect Fit is a better horse, given Te Rapa, wet track, 1200m, 2kgs wont be enough to sway me from backing Underthemoonlight in future - price dependent of course. If you want the handicapper's opinion of a horse's ability then wait for Free Handicaps. Don't confuse a domestic handicap rating with the Free Handicap. If 3lbs = 1 length at 1600m, then Worldclass' 2 wins by a Neck margins are adequately explained, and in reality over-rated! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, berzerk said: Handicap ratings - you win/place they go up, unplaced you go down. They are fluid and purely where a horse sits at any point in time. Anomalies are very easy to find, and some would argue they define, and are a driver of betting markets. For example, while I believe Perfect Fit is a better horse, given Te Rapa, wet track, 1200m, 2kgs wont be enough to sway me from backing Underthemoonlight in future - price dependent of course. If you want the handicapper's opinion of a horse's ability then wait for Free Handicaps. Don't confuse a domestic handicap rating with the Free Handicap. If 3lbs = 1 length at 1600m, then Worldclass' 2 wins by a Neck margins are adequately explained, and in reality over-rated! Dont give up your day job. Strictland's opinion on handicapping is so far off the mark. He should go back to jumps riding - and he was not good at that. Firstly, the free handicap????? When is that out? Its nearly September. It used to be always out at the beginning of August by the Handicapper who did it for over 20 years; before NZTR got rid of him. Going by the domestic ratings of last season 3yos, the Free Handicap will be a shambles. Strictland already changed Nicoletta and Devise domestic ratings last week, because he knows he's fkd up. "Handicap ratings - you win/place they go up, unplaced you go down." What a load of sh*t. Strictland doesnt take into account mitigating circumstances. No way should Mime (distance too short), Coldplay, (blocked) and Perfect Fit (rider eased up -track conditions) should drop points. These are our open class horses, its no wonder we dont have any open handicap races now. A couple misses and your back in R85 grade! No idea Strictland must buy into your bullsh*t template "If 3lbs = 1 length at 1600m, then Worldclass' 2 wins by a Neck margins are adequately explained, and in reality over-rated!" theory. what cra*p! Every trainer and owner knows that ratings since Hall and Strictland have done it, are F**ked. For you to defend him, well........... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
puha 2,177 Report post Posted August 22, 2017 2 hours ago, berzerk said: Handicap ratings - you win/place they go up, unplaced you go down. They are fluid and purely where a horse sits at any point in time. Anomalies are very easy to find, and some would argue they define, and are a driver of betting markets. For example, while I believe Perfect Fit is a better horse, given Te Rapa, wet track, 1200m, 2kgs wont be enough to sway me from backing Underthemoonlight in future - price dependent of course. If you want the handicapper's opinion of a horse's ability then wait for Free Handicaps. Don't confuse a domestic handicap rating with the Free Handicap. If 3lbs = 1 length at 1600m, then Worldclass' 2 wins by a Neck margins are adequately explained, and in reality over-rated! That's not the case in rating 65 races looking through results you generally get no points finishing 3 rd to 6th so a horse that is generally consistent is stuck in limbo and what doesn't help is an out of form rating 75 horse dropping back in grade and ends up higher in the order of entry which doesn't seem right . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
berzerk 107 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 And doesn't the VRC's Greg Carpenter review all NZ Group race rehandicaps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, berzerk said: And doesn't the VRC's Greg Carpenter review all NZ Group race rehandicaps? If that is the case, NZTR are obliged to let owners and trainers know by a press release, which they havent. If that the case, that shows the NZTR has NO confidence in Strictland ratings as a handicapper. If that is the case, he has missed re-rating Ugo Fscolo (or agreed that he get 0 points) wining the 2000 Guineas. Still rated 78. Explain that in the Free Handicap. So when is Free Handicap due out? Over 3 weeks overdue. How is Strictland going to put G1 winner Ugo Foscolo in Free Handicap at 78? The rest of the ratings bands are fkd. No open handicappers left. Nothing going through the grades, as Puha pointed out. Every trainer and owner knows it. There are smart trainers that know Strictland/Hall and before them, NZTR accountant then handicapper/punter Quirke has no idea ratings, and exploiting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 Berzerk ( or is it Berserk ??), you are treading on quicksand ! Quit whilst you are not toooooo deep! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 8 hours ago, SilverHawk said: If that is the case, he has missed re-rating Ugo Fscolo (or agreed that he get 0 points) wining the 2000 Guineas. Still rated 78. Ugo Foscolo was not re-rated due to going overseas. If he had returned then he would have been re-rated. Another example of this is Ardrossan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 9 hours ago, SilverHawk said: The rest of the ratings bands are fkd. No open handicappers left. Nothing going through the grades, That is why we have 6 win horses that have won over $100,000 racing in rating 65 races! Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uneasy 497 Report post Posted August 23, 2017 That's what I call good placement!!! dock leaf 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
puha 2,177 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 If the rules allow it yes but shouldn't be happening . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 10 hours ago, rdytdy said: Ugo Foscolo was not re-rated due to going overseas. If he had returned then he would have been re-rated. Another example of this is Ardrossan. A horse is suppose to be re-rated by the Handicapper on its performance after every race! Whether they go overseas or not! There's no transperancy. The handicapper does not know when they are going overseas. Its like, not re-rating Melbourne Cup or Cox Plate winner, that may go onto Japan or Hong Kong. There wouldn't be any jurisdiction that wouldn't re-rate each horse, straight after a race. The VRC would not allow Carpenter not re-rate EVERY runner immidately after EVERY race! That's his job!! Only NZ Racing and Strictland doesn't! There are many examples ratings not given to horses straight after the race (when other runners in the race did). eg. Ugo Foscolo, Ardrossan, Saracino after Wellington Guineas, Gingernuts and Jon Snow after Derby. If I owned one of these horses, I would like to know what my new rating is. It could determine whether I stay in NZ or go overseas! Every horse should be re-rated immediately after the race it races! Not wait for their return from Australia. This shows Strictland and co doesn't know what he's doing! And its about time we get it right! It would be interesting to know what the Handicapper of yester-years thinks about the system now! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Movefaster 0 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 My records show Ugo Foscolo was rated 88 after the Guineas. Ratings revert to 0 when they are exported I believe. Why not check with the handicappers themselves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, Movefaster said: My records show Ugo Foscolo was rated 88 after the Guineas. Ratings revert to 0 when they are exported I believe. Why not check with the handicappers themselves? Show the evidence, where Ugo Foscolo was rated 88 at any time in career in NZ. Gingernuts and Jon Snow were never rated after the NZ Derby (and before Australia runs). FACT! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 Humidor just another example. Same procedure, should he return to race here then re-rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,010 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 Ted, the handicapping policy says horses must be rated within two days of racing in NZ. With the Ratings System, the Handicappers allocate horses a numeric Rating (within two working days) following a race performance within New Zealand. If they race overseas then they are to be re-rated when nominated in NZ again. Overseas horses, or New Zealand horses that have raced overseas, will be allocated a Rating when nominated in New Zealand or if requested by the horse’s connections, based on their overseas performance and their rating in the overseas jurisdiction. If that's not happening, then NZTR should be ensuring the handicappers follow their own policy, or change the policy. Seems quite clear to me. SilverHawk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, Leggy said: Ted the handicapping policy says horses must be rated within two days of racing in NZ. With the Ratings System, the Handicappers allocate horses a numeric Rating (within two working days) following a race performance within New Zealand. If they race overseas then they are to be re-rated when nominated in NZ again. Overseas horses, or New Zealand horses that have raced overseas, will be allocated a Rating when nominated in New Zealand or if requested by the horse’s connections, based on their overseas performance and their rating in the overseas jurisdiction. If that's not happening then NZTR should be ensuring the handicappers follow their own policy, or change the policy. If this is the policy, Strictland hasn't been doing his job and is incompetent, and should be sacked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted August 25, 2017 Silverhawk the process is: All horses are rated after racing in NZ which includes all the horses mentioned above. When a horse is exported then that rating is removed until such time as they return and a re-rating is done. It was done this way prior to the current handicapper also. If one wanted to know the rating of any particular horse prior to export just ask the handicapper and he can tell you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 25, 2017 49 minutes ago, rdytdy said: Silverhawk the process is: All horses are rated after racing in NZ which includes all the horses mentioned above. When a horse is exported then that rating is removed until such time as they return and a re-rating is done. It was done this way prior to the current handicapper also. If one wanted to know the rating of any particular horse prior to export just ask the handicapper and he can tell you. That statement is 100% in-correct and your covering Strictland. I download every re-rating of Group races for many years. These horses (Ugo Foscolo, Gingernuts, Jon Snow, Tavidream etc..plus others) were NEVER re-rated immediately after their last NZ Group races. FACT! I stand by that 100%. I ask any connection of those horses to come on here and say their horse was re-rated immediately after their NZ Group race. I have every re-rating after the race. Thats how I picked up Strictland CHANGED his ratings of Devise and Nicoletta re-ratings from the NZ Oaks - just a fortnight ago. The handicapper for 20 odd years (DN) always re-rated every horse immediately after every race and the Rating remained there. Never ever removed if went overseas. FACT! Also. I believe only licensed people can ask for a rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted August 25, 2017 46 minutes ago, SilverHawk said: That statement is 100% in-correct and your covering Strictland. I download every re-rating of Group races for many years. These horses (Ugo Foscolo, Gingernuts, Jon Snow, Tavidream etc..plus others) were NEVER re-rated immediately after their last NZ Group races. FACT! I stand by that 100%. I ask any connection of those horses to come on here and say their horse was re-rated immediately after their NZ Group race. I have every re-rating after the race. Thats how I picked up Strictland CHANGED his ratings of Devise and Nicoletta re-ratings from the NZ Oaks - just a fortnight ago. The handicapper for 20 odd years (DN) always re-rated every horse immediately after every race and the Rating remained there. Never ever removed if went overseas. FACT! Also. I believe only licensed people can ask for a rating. I gave you the process as to what happens far as I am aware. Why don't you just ask the handicapper of the process followed if you believe I am wrong and get confirmation/clarification. george.strickland@nzracing.co.nz Then come back and enlighten us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHawk 15 Report post Posted August 25, 2017 14 hours ago, rdytdy said: I gave you the process as to what happens far as I am aware. Why don't you just ask the handicapper of the process followed if you believe I am wrong and get confirmation/clarification. george.strickland@nzracing.co.nz Then come back and enlighten us. I wouldn't waste my time contacting him again. Everybody knows he's incompetent. Ask any trainer. Your comment is 100% in-correct by SUGGESTING Strictland and co were re-rating every horse immediately after every Group races. That is totally un-true. NEVER did he re-rate these horses in question after their Group wins. Matt Hall has departed. It's a pity he didn't take Strictland with him. The whole rating system is fkd and you can only blame Strictland/Hall/Quirke along with Purcell and Moncur for letting it happen. The re ratings of the Foxbridge Plate exposed his incompetency. It's no wonder there's no open class gallopers. Clubs are suffering by cancelling their open class races due to lack of numbers in this grade. And it's going to get worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...