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HH88

Sir Tristram - et al

37 posts in this topic

HH88, thanks for sharing this with us.

When computers gave us the ability to make a 7-generation pedigree in seconds, we lost something - the consideration necessary to tabulate a pedigree 'by hand'.

And in the time it took to laboriously write it out, we probably enjoyed the pause it gave us for thought about each of these ancestors.

My old mate Clive Harper would have smiled wryly if he'd been able to read this post.

Those of us who were able to decipher the works of Harold Hampton, likewise. Clive was able to interpret Harold, and being a teacher by profession was able to render an almost-incomprehensible subject in a way that a few of us could comprehend. 

Yes, there are many 'breeding enthusiasts' who think that it's possible to explain linebreeding in terms of stallions only. Sadly it's a bit harder than that.

'Put the best to the best, and hope for the best' is still practiced widely, but the clever linebreeder will always minimise the chances of breeding a 'duffer'.

Your analysis of Sir Tristram and his son Zabeel was pretty good, and while there will always be disbelievers who are either too lazy or ill-equipped mentally to investigate a pedigree beyond 4 generations, it's now well-accepted that much of the prepotency of a thoroughbred is 'off the page' or back 7, 8 or 9 generations or beyond.

Thanks for a stimulating analysis.

My namesake's breeder Federico Tesio would have understood your analysis.

Nearco

 

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Thanks for your kind words. I met both men mentioned in your post and recall reading the series of Clive Harpers articles published in the NZ Thoroughbred Breeders Bulletin through 1983/84 where he applied statistical analysis to validate Hamptons research. (At the time Clive was a Senior Lecturer in Education at Massey University)

You are correct regarding the use computer generated pedigrees as so much additional information is missed compared to say manually building the pedigree using H.E. Keylocks Thoroughbred Pedigree Charts or the Family Tables of Racehorses published by the Thoroughbred Pedigree Centre in Japan. The computer option is valuable to quickly search for say a particular ancestor and can save hours of laborious manual analysis. In this regard the Pedigree Online Thoroughbred Database is a wonderful resource.

The purpose of the Sir Tristram/Zabeel posts was to illustrate having decoded the Sir Tristram pedigrees it was possible to predict what lines would best suit Zabeel before he retired to stud thus demonstrating the practical use of this type of analysis and at the same time highlighting some definitive breeding principles involved.

Pleased you found them informative.

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9 hours ago, HH88 said:

Thanks for your kind words. I met both men mentioned in your post and recall reading the series of Clive Harpers articles published in the NZ Thoroughbred Breeders Bulletin through 1983/84 where he applied statistical analysis to validate Hamptons research. (At the time Clive was a Senior Lecturer in Education at Massey University)

You are correct regarding the use computer generated pedigrees as so much additional information is missed compared to say manually building the pedigree using H.E. Keylocks Thoroughbred Pedigree Charts or the Family Tables of Racehorses published by the Thoroughbred Pedigree Centre in Japan. The computer option is valuable to quickly search for say a particular ancestor and can save hours of laborious manual analysis. In this regard the Pedigree Online Thoroughbred Database is a wonderful resource.

The purpose of the Sir Tristram/Zabeel posts was to illustrate having decoded the Sir Tristram pedigrees it was possible to predict what lines would best suit Zabeel before he retired to stud thus demonstrating the practical use of this type of analysis and at the same time highlighting some definitive breeding principles involved.

Pleased you found them informative.

And would you expect similar to hold true for Preferment and other sons of Zabeel? Thanks

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I think I have the same question as Paddymc so I'll have a go at clarifying.

If you had a mare with the same pedigree attributes that seem beneficial when mated with Zabeel (ie: Man O War through a female, or My Babu through a male), do you think those pedigree attributes are likely to be similarly beneficial when matched with a son of Zabeel (eg: Preferment), or where Zabeel is the broodmare sire of a stallion (eg: Dundeel or Ocean Park)? 

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There are two parts to your question:

Breeding to a son of Zabeel and breeding to a stallion whos damsire is Zabeel.

The research this thread is based on concludes with the progeny of Zabeel. Preferment is typical of the good Zabeels with his dams four male strains of Man O War however where it goes for the next generation is difficult to assess as the effective linebreeding to both Spearmint and Man O War have now been used up. Taking a line through Might and Power it is possible balanced linebreeding to Round Table could work (for colts) or Monarchy for either.The pedigree of each stallion son of Zabeel needs to be individually assessed.

With a stallion who is out of a mare by Zabeel you are back at square one and can assume nothing. With Dundeel say, use High Chaparral as the start point, analyse the pedigrees of say his 10 best track performers searching for a constant factor common to them all. That will determine if your mare is a suitable match. 

Regrettably there are no shortcuts and as alluded to earlier nature tends to hide her secrets well.

 

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A little more grist for the Sir Tristram mill:

The post dated 3rd August earlier in this thread explains the link between Spearmint, Man O War, and the full brother/sister Foxlaw and Aloe.

The classy fillies Noble Heights and Royal Heights demonstrate this perfectly. They both have the Foxlaw/Aloe linebreeding (which should suit colts or fillies) but additionally have balanced linebreeding to Man O Wars dam Fairy Gold, through Dame D'or - Fairy Golds full sister.

(Royal Heights also has an additional female strain of Fairy Gold through Dante)

Thus a male and female strain of a female ancestor which may best suit fillies.

 

Noble Heights.jpeg

Royal Heights.jpeg

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A little bit about Eight Carat

And how she was able to leave top gallopers from both Sir Tristram and Zabeel.

As the above pedigrees demonstrate Sir Tristram picked up male lines of Man O War and/or Spearmint in the mares he was mated with.

As Zabeel was a "Spearmint" his line of Man O War was still open to line breed back to.

So Eight Carat gave both stallions the male line of Man O War plus an additional reinforcing female strain of Fairy Gold.

But there is also a balanced duplication of Sir Cosmo, so is this "effective" or merely "incidental" line breeding?

Casting the net a little wider provides us some clues.

5b1756ed184bc_EbonyGrosve.thumb.jpeg.b8a7b4af0d0bff34c4a14f1ea8c5d665.jpeg

 

Captain Court.jpeg

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The Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees above suggest the line of Orby (on its own) has some beneficial influence here. The next two pedigrees show how this can be brought forward (as always through an opposite strain)

This line breeding is now through Sir Cosmo - however how much he is contributing is impossible to quantify as Zonda also has the male line of Man O War and Cronus has the full brother/sister Foxlaw/Aloe both of which have proved so successful in the others.

Hence the Ebony Grosve and Captain Court pedigrees provide some indication at least Sir Cosmo is playing a useful supporting role.

Apropos nothing at all: Light Fantastic ( Zonda) and Democratic (Cronus) are full brother/sister.

 

Zonda.jpeg

Cronus.jpeg

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All of the examples in this thread allow us to understand why Eight Carat was so successful with her balanced line breeding to Man O War, Fairy Gold, and Sir Cosmo. (eg Octagonal) Note: all this this effective line breeding is coming through the sire Pieces of Eight. 

But what influence could the balanced line breeding to the full brother/sister Royal Charger and Tessa Gillian be having? Is it effective or merely incidental? It appears without the line of Pieces of Eight this female family did not meet with the same success when mated with Sir Tristram or Zabeel. 

Octagonal.jpeg

The Gladiator.jpeg

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To conclude - all of the above shows us how these breeding principles work, starting with a "deep dive" analysis of a stallion and his best progeny ( to ascertain his strongest line or lines) then mating him with a broodmare carrying the opposite strain.

Unfortunately starting with a mare and trying to work out what stallion may best suit her is an order of magnitude more difficult and very long odds to succeed if you are breeding to race. A stallion may produce 100 foals each season, a mare only one so the stallion and his progeny provide a much larger data base for analysis. (If you are considering a new stallion start with his sire)

Before signing off lets address a matter raised earlier in the thread regarding conformation and temperament which wasn't dealt with at the time as this thread is based solely on pedigree. Of course these attributes are important.

However with regard to this thread:

Conformation: Sir Tristram was no oil painting.

Temperament: Early reports out of Australia suggested the Zabeels were difficult (but when they started winning they soon learned to love them)

It matters not if you have the best conformed horse on the planet with a temperament you would trust to babysit your kids - it still won't make a racehorse unless the pedigree is structured correctly.

 

 

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