RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
HH88

Sir Tristram - et al

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As a follow up to the earlier post Street Cry-et al on this site a couple of linebreeding principles (repeated below) demonstrated how searching for constant factors in a stallions best progeny can provide clues as to what lines he is looking for in the mares he is mated with.

(1) A stallion can be particularly strong to certain lines in his pedigree and responds to mares who carry that line in the opposite strain. 

(2) That ancestor may be well back in the pedigree but will be effective if duplicated in sufficient number.

This analysis can also provide clues as to how a stallions son will throw when he in turn goes to stud.

And so to Sir Tristram:

Lets start with Sir Ivor - and a challenge to pedigree enthusiasts out there.

There are two horses in Sir Ivors pedigree, which when repeated through an opposite strain in mares Sir Tristram was mated with resulted in racing ability.

So a "starter for ten"- who are they?

And a bonus point for explaining how they are linked.

 More to follow........

Scan 1.jpeg

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41 minutes ago, HH88 said:

As a follow up to the earlier post Street Cry-et al on this site a couple of linebreeding principles (repeated below) demonstrated how searching for constant factors in a stallions best progeny can provide clues as to what lines he is looking for in the mares he is mated with.

(1) A stallion can be particularly strong to certain lines in his pedigree and responds to mares who carry that line in the opposite strain. 

(2) That ancestor may be well back in the pedigree but will be effective if duplicated in sufficient number.

This analysis can also provide clues as to how a stallions son will throw when he in turn goes to stud.

And so to Sir Tristram:

Lets start with Sir Ivor - and a challenge to pedigree enthusiasts out there.

There are two horses in Sir Ivors pedigree, which when repeated through an opposite strain in mares Sir Tristram was mated with resulted in racing ability.

So a "starter for ten"- who are they?

And a bonus point for explaining how they are linked.

 More to follow........

Scan 1.jpeg

Selene and princequillo 

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43 minutes ago, HH88 said:

As a follow up to the earlier post Street Cry-et al on this site a couple of linebreeding principles (repeated below) demonstrated how searching for constant factors in a stallions best progeny can provide clues as to what lines he is looking for in the mares he is mated with.

(1) A stallion can be particularly strong to certain lines in his pedigree and responds to mares who carry that line in the opposite strain. 

(2) That ancestor may be well back in the pedigree but will be effective if duplicated in sufficient number.

This analysis can also provide clues as to how a stallions son will throw when he in turn goes to stud.

And so to Sir Tristram:

Lets start with Sir Ivor - and a challenge to pedigree enthusiasts out there.

There are two horses in Sir Ivors pedigree, which when repeated through an opposite strain in mares Sir Tristram was mated with resulted in racing ability.

So a "starter for ten"- who are they?

And a bonus point for explaining how they are linked.

 More to follow........

Scan 1.jpeg

Selene and princequillo 

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Personally I like the royal charger / Mahmoud no 9 family and Blenheim influence. I'd say it the 1 and 9 families - Selene gaining influence from from canterbury pilgrim (no 1 family thru her sire Chaucer) tieing in nicely with the prolific no 1 family lines in turn to

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Surprisingly few responders and many thanks to those who did.

The attached pedigree provides the answer and a clear demonstration of how the buildup of linebreeding  to a common ancestor occurs almost unseen in the background (always through an opposite strain) but carries forward and can be linebred back to thus reinforcing it.

Firstly Sir Gaylord has two female and one male line of Thunderbolt (whos second dam is Emillia)  

Attica adds a piece of the puzzle, her line of Australian is the male strain of Emillia.

Thus Sir Ivor is 4xF and 1xM to Emillia.

This linebreeding is descending via Man O War and his multiple lines of Spearmint.

Next post will feature two pedigrees selected from Sir Tristrams top 10 stakes winners demonstrating how this linebreeding to Spearmint and Man O War is carried forward - and yes as always through an opposite strain.

More to follow.....

5974158ad1c17_Scan1.thumb.jpeg.75d2087f1b879ffa06f6a20d15b7d356.jpeg

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Herewith the next two pedigrees:

(1) Trissaro provided an early clue to Sir Tristrams success when mated with mares carrying male strains of Man O War.

His damsire Lucifer 11 stod at Rosswood Stud at Masterton in the late 1960s meeting with moderate success but importantly (as far as Sir Tristram was concerned) carried a double male line of Man O War and when Golden Glow was mated with him the champion stayer Trissaro resulted.

(2) Grosvenor is a perfect example of balanced linebreeding to Spearmint through My Tricias double of Spion Kop. 

An interesting side bar is the full brother/full sister relationship between Atlantic and Atlantis though unlikely to influence the outcome.

More to follow....

597566ba4092c_Scan1.thumb.jpeg.508396f4a43d4972c22904578d2a2054.jpegScan.thumb.jpeg.b5a85ac817d3b91796c0a169276207cb.jpeg

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I'm following this thread with interest and waiting for the next instalment.

Some of the info above seems to provide a reason why Century, Wilkes, Bletchingly and Sir Tristram seem to have mixed so well together via Man'O'War, Spearmint and Hurry On duplications I think but please tell me if I'm wrong.

Hoping that you can confirm what you mean by "opposite strain"?

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Grosvenors pedigree above shows a female strain or daughter of Hurry On through Bobsleigh.

Precipitation is by Hurry On thus a son or male strain.

Happy to answer any questions on these posts.

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I have met a lot of pedigree buffs in my time. Some I respect because they talk some sense in their approach but unfortunately there is nothing to suggest that even with their purported knowledge that they can out perform anyone else with simple breeding, conformation and racing knowledge. There is absolutely nothing in the above pedigrees that suggests any form of pattern or process that any rational minded person could make any recommendation on in relation to breeding.

If you could post all the BEST Sir Tristram progeny and show a proper pattern, then you might get me but I know you can't. Same argument that I was having with Swynford. He didn't get me over the line on any matter because the proposals were flawed and the results from his breeding program suggestions hadn't out performed the norm in any material way.

I talked with a bloke called John Aiscan many years ago. He was a serious breeding buff and helped Bunker Hunt. I think from memory he was Tesio's protégé. Now he did most of his breedings based on temperament first, followed by conformation, then race record. He knew of patterns that didn't work and those were his rejections but he said that most of the patterns that didn't work were influenced by temperament. All of you guys that quote crosses or duplications.....I'll bet that most of you don't know those stallions race records or temperaments. So how can you say they work? You're playing a flawed statistical plan that has very little basis because you cant show the statistical probability of anything you are saying.

Now that's a strange approach in normal business

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Thank you for your contribution.....Moving on Spearmints pedigree should have been included in the last post, it provides a clue going forward.

Mowerina (dam of West Australian) is a full sister to Cotherstone and is reinforced with a third line through Euclids dam Maria who  is a full sister to Emma.

Full brother/sister linebreeding is good for balance - ie a male and female strain of a female ancestor and a male and female strain of a male.

As always must be a line the stallion is looking for.

 

More to follow....

Scan.jpeg

Edited by HH88
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6 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Berri, we know you views, which are well respected, now let's hear from HH88. Move in to another thread if it's annoying you.

Nothing is annoying me. I asked HH88 how many group one winners he had bred and directed him to a web site which meant he didn't have to write everything out. I'm simply trying to make some sense in respect of what's being discussed. Nothing wrong with that?

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2 minutes ago, Berri said:

Nothing is annoying me. I asked HH88 how many group one winners he had bred and directed him to a web site which meant he didn't have to write everything out. I'm simply trying to make some sense in respect of what's being discussed. Nothing wrong with that?

I am sure he/she appreciates the link to not having to write them out..... I would hate to do that myself. No one would have a clue what was written. 

Appreciate the time people are putting in to explain their theories. People may not agree, but at least they are giving some methods to their madness, and let's face it, horse breeders are mad :) 

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Sir Tristram found success when mated with mares carrying his opposite strain of Man O War and/or Spearmint and the links between them via Thunderbolt and Emillia are documented earlier in the thread.

Sir Tristrams line of Aloe provides the third part of the puzzle and probable link between all three.

Man O War is the male strain of West Australian and Spearmint the female strain.

Aloe is 3 x 4 to a son and daughter of Donovan whos third dam is the full  sister to West Australian.

When mated with mares carrying Aloes full brother Foxlaw horses including Admiral Lincoln, Trissaring, Noble heights, Royal Heights, Great Vintage, Starline and Zabeel resulted.

The dams of Tristarc, Marauding, Sovereign Red, Brew, Popsy, and Empire Rose all carried Aloes 3/4 brother Winalot.

(Foxlaw and Winalot both provide male strains of Son-in-Law to balance Aloes female strain)

Final Post to follow...

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For the record the Sir Tristram analysis was done about 25 years ago, pedigrees were generated in real time as each horse in turn demonstrated racetrack ability. When Zabeel retired to stud based on the accumulated data from the Sir Tristram analysis it was predictable, not with surgical precision, but with a reasonable degree of certainty he would do best with mares carrying the male line of Man O War. His lines of Spearmint and Aloe had been used up however MOW was still open.The Sir Tristram data was volunteered to the stud at the time including copies of all pedigrees (some of which have been reproduced earlier in this thread) Given Zabeels line of MOW was one generation further back than Sir Tristrams it was also suggested that two male lines in the dam may be preferable and a couple of hard copy examples of  this were included. The findings were also discussed with Alan Porter when he spent a couple of days in NZ on his way to a conference in Australia.

So about 25 years on how did it pan out?  - You decide.

Zabeels ten highest stakes winners follow. The odd man out may appear to be Might and Power but he is correctly linebred to Round Table descending directly from Aloe, therefore bringing that line forward and through an opposite strain

The bigger question remains: Is linebreeding the cause of speed in the thoroughbred?

Frankly I haven't got the faintest idea but thus far am unable to find a more compelling reason. 

Savabeel.jpeg

Sky Heights.jpeg

Vengence of Rain.jpeg

Champagne.jpeg

Efficient.jpeg

Jezabeel.jpeg

Maldivian.jpeg

Octagonal.jpeg

Railings.jpeg

Might and Power.jpeg

 Zabeel.jpeg

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18 hours ago, HH88 said:

For the record the Sir Tristram analysis was done about 25 years ago, pedigrees were generated in real time as each horse in turn demonstrated racetrack ability. When Zabeel retired to stud based on the accumulated data from the Sir Tristram analysis it was predictable, not with surgical precision, but with a reasonable degree of certainty he would do best with mares carrying the male line of Man O War. His lines of Spearmint and Aloe had been used up however MOW was still open.The Sir Tristram data was volunteered to the stud at the time including copies of all pedigrees (some of which have been reproduced earlier in this thread) Given Zabeels line of MOW was one generation further back than Sir Tristrams it was also suggested that two male lines in the dam may be preferable and a couple of hard copy examples of  this were included. The findings were also discussed with Alan Porter when he spent a couple of days in NZ on his way to a conference in Australia.

So about 25 years on how did it pan out?  - You decide.

Zabeels ten highest stakes winners follow. The odd man out may appear to be Might and Power but he is correctly linebred to Round Table descending directly from Aloe, therefore bringing that line forward and through an opposite strain

The bigger question remains: Is linebreeding the cause of speed in the thoroughbred?

Frankly I haven't got the faintest idea but thus far am unable to find a more compelling reason. 

Savabeel.jpeg

Sky Heights.jpeg

Vengence of Rain.jpeg

Champagne.jpeg

Efficient.jpeg

Jezabeel.jpeg

Maldivian.jpeg

Octagonal.jpeg

Railings.jpeg

Might and Power.jpeg

Zabeel.jpeg

What about say Precedence?

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Hi a bit lost in all of this, but Zabeel best cross was with vice regal mares 1 in every 8 was group 1 winner 5 of them. 35 runners 26 winners by far better than anything else is this due to Bismarck's sire Relic ??

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The key is Relics grandsire Man O War.

If you scroll up to Jazabeels pedigree Vice Regal is the male line of Man O War and Sir Ivors dam line carries the female strain of the same horse.

So as all the above pedigrees illustrate when Zabeel was mated with mare carrying the male strain of Man O War (not necessarily through Vice Regal) he did well.

Trust this helps.

(The exception as indicated earlier is Might and Power who is linebred to Round Table)

Edited by HH88
Added comment re Might and Power.

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