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GET RID OF THE STUPID 10 HIT RULE NOW!!!!

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11 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Newmarket you are wrong it was not brought in with the agreement from the drivers at all!

Anyway better get on and sort out some winners!

 

To all
NZ
Harness Racing Drivers
OFFICIAL NOTICE
AMENDMENT TO “
USE OF
THE
WHIP GUIDELINES
Following consultation with and the support of the NZ Harness Racing Trainers & Drivers’
Association and the Racing Integrity Unit (RI
U), the Board of HRNZ has approved a change to the
Use of the Whip Guidelines.
From 1 December 2016, the whip shall not be used more than 10 times in the last 400m of a
race. Any breach of this will constitute excessive use of the whip pursuant to Rule 8
6
9
(2)(a) and
be subject to a charge by the RIU
 

 

Either you or HRNZ CEO has got it wrong, others can be the judge

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1 hour ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Sorry to hear that.

yes, she was found dead sunday morning..  rigo had set in so most likely dead for 12+.

found in a pool of blood. sad way to go and alone.. but life is what you make it I guess. we all have choices..

that makes her and a cousin  so far this year.. that's the way of life when things go wrong..never mind, she has gone to a happy place now. thanks happy.

 

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1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

 

To all
NZ
Harness Racing Drivers
OFFICIAL NOTICE
AMENDMENT TO “
USE OF
THE
WHIP GUIDELINES
Following consultation with and the support of the NZ Harness Racing Trainers & Drivers’
Association and the Racing Integrity Unit (RI
U), the Board of HRNZ has approved a change to the
Use of the Whip Guidelines.
From 1 December 2016, the whip shall not be used more than 10 times in the last 400m of a
race. Any breach of this will constitute excessive use of the whip pursuant to Rule 8
6
9
(2)(a) and
be subject to a charge by the RIU
 

 

Either you or HRNZ CEO has got it wrong, others can be the judge

HRNZ CEO

Yes we have read that Newmarket.

despite what is said,It did not have the support of the drivers at all! Even though someone may have said so.

Did you not see the interviews with all of the leading drivers Newmarket?

Didnt appear as if there was any support at all for the 10 hit rule!!!!!!!!!!    

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17 minutes ago, final luca said:

she has gone to a happy place now.

FL,

I agree she has.

I like horses, the competitiveness, the venues and the challenge of getting a winner so I have always found something 'peaceful' about harness racing, so when I go, I hope there is a harness track there where I can hang out. 

I won't go on but real sympathies to you and everyone.

HP

 

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40 minutes ago, Brodie said:

HRNZ CEO

Yes we have read that Newmarket.

despite what is said,It did not have the support of the drivers at all! Even though someone may have said so.

Did you not see the interviews with all of the leading drivers Newmarket?

Didnt appear as if there was any support at all for the 10 hit rule!!!!!!!!!!    

So the CEO of HRNZ is a liar is what you are saying as he signed this off.

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36 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

So the CEO of HRNZ is a liar is what you are saying as he signed this off.

So you are saying that all the harness drivers were in support of the 10 hit rule Newmarket?

So you also agree with the rule that was brought in regards to having to finish in the placings for there to be an enquirey if the horse has been checked by a placegetter??????

Just another stupid rule that was brought in without considering the consequences!

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34 minutes ago, Brodie said:

So you are saying that all the harness drivers were in support of the 10 hit rule Newmarket?

So you also agree with the rule that was brought in regards to having to finish in the placings for there to be an enquirey if the horse has been checked by a placegetter??????

Just another stupid rule that was brought in without considering the consequences!

when are you ever going to get everyone to support something like this change Brodie ? So Newmarket is not saying all drivers supported it.

The point is it was introduced after consultation. 

The reference to the inquiry rule makes no sense. Nothing to do with this change.

You need to try and appreciate that this rule is aimed at protecting the industry  - arguably it will help preserve use of the whip for longer. Without this change and the industry being pro-active it would be much more likely at some stage an attack by rabid outsiders would cause greater grief.

 

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25 minutes ago, chelseacol said:

when are you ever going to get everyone to support something like this change Brodie ? So Newmarket is not saying all drivers supported it.

The point is it was introduced after consultation. 

The reference to the inquiry rule makes no sense. Nothing to do with this change.

You need to try and appreciate that this rule is aimed at protecting the industry  - arguably it will help preserve use of the whip for longer. Without this change and the industry being pro-active it would be much more likely at some stage an attack by rabid outsiders would cause greater grief.

 

Col, did you see the interviews with the many senior drivers?

There was no support for a 10 hit rule at all from the drivers.

The rule was introduced overnight with no pressure from any group and the animal rights groups have stated this.

The point I am trying to make is that rules are being introduced without consideration of the consequences.

Col, do you really beleive that Horsemen that need to win races to put food on the table for their family should be needing to count up to ten as they are manouevreing their horse that they are in charge of? 

If they happen to miscount or the Stipes think that a slight tap is a hit they are stood down or heavily fined when all they are doing is trying their best for the punter owner and trainer.

What the rule is saying is that we don't care if we have drivers that aren't that keen to win the race as they don't really need to put much effort i and I will get the driving fee anyway!

If the Animal Rights people were on their backs about the whip then there could have been discussion with them and decisions made.

The previous rule was working fine and there was no need for change at that stage.

I would much prefer the Stipes to spend more time looking at the drivers who aren't that keen to win by not giving their horse every chance, to my mind this is a far worse thing for harness racing, than fining drivers that want to win!

As for the enquirey situation yes it is  different, but the point being is that new rules are being introduced when they are to the detriment of the harness industry without the consideration of the ramifications!

 

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8 hours ago, chelseacol said:

when are you ever going to get everyone to support something like this change Brodie ? So Newmarket is not saying all drivers supported it.

The point is it was introduced after consultation. 

The reference to the inquiry rule makes no sense. Nothing to do with this change.

You need to try and appreciate that this rule is aimed at protecting the industry  - arguably it will help preserve use of the whip for longer. Without this change and the industry being pro-active it would be much more likely at some stage an attack by rabid outsiders would cause greater grief.

 

We are wasting our precious time here Col on Brodie, come hell or high water he has convinced himself that he is right despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Ed's now a liar because in his mind a few drivers don't like Rule 869(2)(a)] - Excessive use of whip. Congrats to HRNZ for front footing the issue.

The punter in him must not be looking forward to September because that is when the Ozzies ban whip use altogether  according to reports i read.

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1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

 

We are wasting our precious time here Col on Brodie, come hell or high water he has convinced himself that he is right despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Ed's now a liar because in his mind a few drivers don't like Rule 869(2)(a)] - Excessive use of whip. Congrats to HRNZ for front footing the issue.

The punter in him must not be looking forward to September because that is when the Ozzies ban whip use altogether  according to reports i read.

Newmarket, you are somewhat misinformed here. There was evidence, in print, that all was not as it seemed re the Horseman's Association supposed support of this movement.

Mark Jones was especially outspoken on the matter.
 

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51 minutes ago, Toblerone said:

Newmarket, you are somewhat misinformed here. There was evidence, in print, that all was not as it seemed re the Horseman's Association supposed support of this movement.

Mark Jones was especially outspoken on the matter.
 

With any semi professional body you will never get total agreement Toblerone but at the end of the day the Horseman's association did support the move as per Ed's well documented press release and subsequent introduction into HRNZ rules of new whip  laws

Mark Jones is some one who comes across as a very negative person according to many in the industry , just look at him when he is on Trackside or Box seat. . Further, why if he is so outspoken about it is he setting up a stable in Oz where the whip will be completely banned in September. One might also ask/question how often he even drives these days: preferring Blair and Sam to do those duties.

At the end of the day and i'll say this one more time, the new rules are in place and wont be repealed .Drivers will either adapt as many have already or be prepared to take the penalties handed out by JCA. This is real simple stuff

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34 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

With any semi professional body you will never get total agreement Toblerone but at the end of the day the Horseman's association did support the move as per Ed's well documented press release and subsequent introduction into HRNZ rules of new whip  laws

Mark Jones is some one who comes across as a very negative person according to many in the industry , just look at him when he is on Trackside or Box seat. . Further, why if he is so outspoken about it is he setting up a stable in Oz where the whip will be completely banned in September. One might also ask/question how often he even drives these days: preferring Blair and Sam to do those duties.

At the end of the day and i'll say this one more time, the new rules are in place and wont be repealed .Drivers will either adapt as many have already or be prepared to take the penalties handed out by JCA. This is real simple stuff

Newmarket, most of the drivers did not support the rule at all and very hard to find anyone that thought it was right.

You have not answered any of my questions above!!

The rule was brought in overnight and you are defending it when it wasn't required.

Edward Rennell stated his opinion on the whip one night on The Box Seat" and it appears that the rule was going to be implemented whether or not it was supported by the Horsemen.

To knock Mark Jones who has a differing view to you is a very bad look, and in my mind Mark Jones is not negative and speaks his mind, which is what "The Brodster" does, which is our perogative.

Mark Jones is one of our best Horsemen and for you to question his driving etc. shows what a narrow minded person you are!

Mark Jones is one person is prepared to state his opinions and because they may be different to what the HRNZ has adopted he is put down by you!

It seems that HRNZ has this attitude that everything they do is right all the time.

We are entitled to state our opinion on things and let's face it HRNZ have made a lot of wrong decisions haven't they?

You clearly are employed by HRNZ as you are adamant that the rule won't be overturned and someone that wasnt employed by them wouldn't be so defensive

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11 hours ago, Brodie said:

Col, did you see the interviews with the many senior drivers?

There was no support for a 10 hit rule at all from the drivers.

The rule was introduced overnight with no pressure from any group and the animal rights groups have stated this.

The point I am trying to make is that rules are being introduced without consideration of the consequences.

Col, do you really beleive that Horsemen that need to win races to put food on the table for their family should be needing to count up to ten as they are manouevreing their horse that they are in charge of? 

If they happen to miscount or the Stipes think that a slight tap is a hit they are stood down or heavily fined when all they are doing is trying their best for the punter owner and trainer.

What the rule is saying is that we don't care if we have drivers that aren't that keen to win the race as they don't really need to put much effort i and I will get the driving fee anyway!

If the Animal Rights people were on their backs about the whip then there could have been discussion with them and decisions made.

The previous rule was working fine and there was no need for change at that stage.

I would much prefer the Stipes to spend more time looking at the drivers who aren't that keen to win by not giving their horse every chance, to my mind this is a far worse thing for harness racing, than fining drivers that want to win!

As for the enquirey situation yes it is  different, but the point being is that new rules are being introduced when they are to the detriment of the harness industry without the consideration of the ramifications!

 

In life, business and sport Brodie - you cannot just sit with the status quo and ignore gathering external forces or developments of any kind.

Look where greyhound racing in NSW ended up because the industry did not try and improve its animal welfare situation (and yeah I know it was a few and it isn't a direct comparison - BUT it does show how the world outside our sport thinks about animal welfare and what punitive actions can follow).

So there is no going back here.

What can happen though is drivers do learn to count to 10, stipes & JCA consider equity when applying the rules, use discretion and don't pin people to the wall for minor transgressions (and I am far from convinced this is happening yet), and then given time the industry revisits the rules and asks what tweaks need to be made.

IMO a much better approach than sitting back and letting the whip be used as it always has always been used, and then responding when we are all over TV/social media etc for abusing animals.

If we were clever we would also be developing a portfolio of initiatives and evidence which shows how much the vast majority of people in our game love the horse, care for it, etc etc etc - so when the inevitable does happen we have already got a PR campaign of our own (or perhaps we are proactive on that front as well and get the story out there now)

 

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I congratulate the industry on limiting whip use, and I look forward to the day that whips are banned altogether.

I'm far from believing that HRNZ is always right, but they have shown some leadership on this issue. Leadership that those who are stuck in the 70's badly needed.

Anybody who thinks that the industry should have waited until they were "forced" to do the right thing is in my opinion, a poor excuse for a humaan being!

  • Would you also not give up shoplifting until the introduction of security cameras "forced" you to?
  • Would you also not give up selling drugs until the police knocked on your door and "forced" you to?
  • Would you also not give up beating your wife until she bought herself a gun and "forced" you to?

If the racing industry can't govern itself properly on these sort of issues, the government via public pressure will shut it down for good.

Forget about who supports the rule, or who said what, if you aren't onboard with the whip issue, you won't have an industry to support.

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Col, the basic fact is though that The Animal Rights people were not concerned with the whip on horses in NZ.

Harness NZ just brought the stupid rule in off their own back without any pressures or discussion from Animal Rights.

If it had become an issue then it could be discussed.

As for the Oz situation I believe it will have a huge implication for the sport over there .

The larger wagering punters will walk.

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2 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

I congratulate the industry on limiting whip use, and I look forward to the day that whips are banned altogether.

I'm far from believing that HRNZ is always right, but they have shown some leadership on this issue. Leadership that those who are stuck in the 70's badly needed.

Anybody who thinks that the industry should have waited until they were "forced" to do the right thing is in my opinion, a poor excuse for a humaan being!

  • Would you also not give up shoplifting until the introduction of security cameras "forced" you to?
  • Would you also not give up selling drugs until the police knocked on your door and "forced" you to?
  • Would you also not give up beating your wife until she bought herself a gun and "forced" you to?

If the racing industry can't govern itself properly on these sort of issues, the government via public pressure will shut it down for good.

Forget about who supports the rule, or who said what, if you aren't onboard with the whip issue, you won't have and industry to support.

Jack the day the whip is banned is the day the industry in NZ is dead.

As for your examples they are ridiculous.

There was no pressure from the Animal Rights to have the rule brought in unless you can provide evidence otherwise.

You say stuck in the 70's?

I think you will find harness racing to be a thriving industry in the 70's so maybe we need those administrators in charge again.

There was nothing wrong with the previous rule in that the stipes could. Barge a driver for excess whip if they thought it warranted.

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1 minute ago, Brodie said:

I think you will find harness racing to be a thriving industry in the 70's so maybe we need those administrators in charge again.

But those administrators had a captive market and no technology to do with.

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20 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Jack the day the whip is banned is the day the industry in NZ is dead.

As for your examples they are ridiculous.

There was no pressure from the Animal Rights to have the rule brought in unless you can provide evidence otherwise.

You say stuck in the 70's?

I think you will find harness racing to be a thriving industry in the 70's so maybe we need those administrators in charge again.

There was nothing wrong with the previous rule in that the stipes could. Barge a driver for excess whip if they thought it warranted.

You Brodie are a relic of the 70's, and 70's thinking.

Asbestos, drink driving and smoking were big in the 70's too. You must miss them terribly!

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1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

Some people can speak their minds which is ok but others cant.

Some people prefer facts whilst others go into denial.

Some people can see the woods from the trees, others are not so fortunate

 

Is this a quote from  " Thoughts of a Narcissist " ?

Harness Racing should be a Democracy not a Dictatorship.

The current Harness Racing modus operandi seems to be I will make the decision, get a few lackeys to run around the country having meetings to promote and justify  it, and rubbish  or ignore any opposition in the process.

It should be where a rule change is as big as this one is,

Go to  all parties involved , consult them  , take on board all opinions ,submissions and then and  only then, make a decision based upon all the facts on the table involving all parties concerned. Then go back to your grassroots and find the best way of implenting the changes if required so everyone understands how it effects them and find the best way they can to implement them.

Then implement the change, monitor the change, review the change and improve the change.

The last line here needs urgent attention.

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All these thoughts on consultation are well and good .... but completely irrelevent.

When it comes to animal welfare issues, the trainers and drivers personal opinions count for absolute zero.

The iindustry lives or dies on public perception.

Whipless racing is coming, and the longer the industry resists the change, the quicker it will die!

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1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Harness NZ just brought the stupid rule in off their own back without any pressures or discussion from Animal Rights.

If it had become an issue then it could be discussed.

 

If Harness NZ decided to wait till it become an issue or there was pressure applied it would be to late. These groups aren't interested in a discussion.

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2 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

All these thoughts on consultation are well and good .... but completely irrelevent.

When it comes to animal welfare issues, the trainers and drivers personal opinions count for absolute zero.

The iindustry lives or dies on public perception.

Whipless racing is coming, and the longer the industry resists the change, the quicker it will die!

Jack, you are away with the fairies.

the public in general haven't even given a second thought about the whip on harness horses in NZ.

They have other things on their mind.

HRNZ brought it in off their own back and the way it was done has left a sour taste in the mouths of many.

Sadly for the industry some of these decisions are having detrimental effects on the industry but some don't care because they are still getting paid by an industry that is self destructing.

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Just now, tonkatime said:

If Harness NZ decided to wait till it become an issue or there was pressure applied it would be to late. These groups aren't interested in a discussion.

What part of that there was no pressure from Animal Rights don't you understand?

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The use of the whip in racing is a minuscule speck in the world we live in. However, it carries great potential for trouble for the industry.

Unfortunately for Harness Racing, people care about the 'little' things because that is what they can control and change.

People don't care about millions of people starving in East Africa; refugees flooding into Europe or the trafficking of children for goodness knows what around the world. Why don't they care? Because they can't do anything about it.

However....watch a little kitten get beaten by a group of teenagers on the news and there will be an outrage. Racing is on the news when there is a terrible fall, horses breaking down, cheating or drug use. Unfortunately (again) that is just the way it is.

Harness Racing dodged a bullet over the metal rod whip incident but there will be a time in the future when 'we' will be in the firing line again, like greyhound racing in NSW (who failed miserably), so the industry has to be prepared with a creditable defence of itself.

Yes, the rule is flawed, that is obvious and needs a review but in the big scheme of things it is a valuable self-preservation measure for a rainy day

 

 

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