JETSUN 100 Report post Posted March 15, 2017 I have read the Grading Advisory, re-read it, and read it again. I am shocked with the interpretation and believe it is a spiel to justify and respond to inquiries as to how the Association has allowed the dog "Hypocritical" to accumulate 5 wins and 2 thirds in C1. In addition to the 2 wins in C0 the dog has had 9 starts over 35 days for 7 wins and 2 3rds, I believe that in the past dogs have been regraded for every win and that misses in both the heat and a final (say 4th in both) have counted as two losses for downgrading. Surely, say if the "series" has 4 heats then we have 4 winners to be regraded, but assuming one of these dogs wins the final then this must be more relevant than just a heat win deserving added penalty. In the case of the above dog every additional start in the Grade not only prevents another dog a start but also denies the trainer and connections of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th dog the prize money they would have earned. This must be a classic example of why the "running out nom's" rule needs urgent revision. Gordon Wilson - Jetsun Kennels. I trust all respondents to this will have the courage to state their real name. modest mouse, Slim Shady, Moany Again and 4 others 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted March 15, 2017 12 hours ago, JETSUN said: I have read the Grading Advisory, re-read it, and read it again. I am shocked with the interpretation and believe it is a spiel to justify and respond to inquiries as to how the Association has allowed the dog "Hypocritical" to accumulate 5 wins and 2 thirds in C1. In addition to the 2 wins in C0 the dog has had 9 starts over 35 days for 7 wins and 2 3rds, I believe that in the past dogs have been regraded for every win and that misses in both the heat and a final (say 4th in both) have counted as two losses for downgrading. Surely, say if the "series" has 4 heats then we have 4 winners to be regraded, but assuming one of these dogs wins the final then this must be more relevant than just a heat win deserving added penalty. In the case of the above dog every additional start in the Grade not only prevents another dog a start but also denies the trainer and connections of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th dog the prize money they would have earned. This must be a classic example of why the "running out nom's" rule needs urgent revision. Gordon Wilson - Jetsun Kennels. I trust all respondents to this will have the courage to state their real name. As I have said before Gordy the two wins in class one have to go Slim Shady, Gary Sharp and modest mouse 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 15, 2017 Or maybe make it so that you cannot drop back to C1 once you are C2. That would get rid of alot of the problems with too many C1 dogs and C2 can be a hell of a grade to get a field in sometimes Gary Sharp, come on ref and it's a ballroom 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know 150 Report post Posted March 16, 2017 Bad move what's wrong with two c1 wins nothing . How many dogs would no be able to compete if they couldn't drop past c2 , heaps . I see your point regarding the backlog in c1 most are going nowhere but still deserve there day in the sun . So why not have a new grade where if you miss 3 or 4 times in c1 you drop down and race against the same class of dog . Even if it's for less money and when you win you go back up. And not non-tote races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 203 Report post Posted March 16, 2017 12 hours ago, I know said: Bad move what's wrong with two c1 wins nothing . How many dogs would no be able to compete if they couldn't drop past c2 , heaps . I see your point regarding the backlog in c1 most are going nowhere but still deserve there day in the sun . So why not have a new grade where if you miss 3 or 4 times in c1 you drop down and race against the same class of dog . Even if it's for less money and when you win you go back up. And not non-tote races. Wasn't that called Tier 2 racing? alltheway!!! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know 150 Report post Posted March 17, 2017 Yes but they were non tote races Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
it's a ballroom 174 Report post Posted March 17, 2017 41 minutes ago, I know said: Yes but they were non tote races As they should be . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 17, 2017 18 hours ago, I know said: Bad move what's wrong with two c1 wins nothing . How many dogs would no be able to compete if they couldn't drop past c2 , heaps . I see your point regarding the backlog in c1 most are going nowhere but still deserve there day in the sun . So why not have a new grade where if you miss 3 or 4 times in c1 you drop down and race against the same class of dog . Even if it's for less money and when you win you go back up. And not non-tote races. Why do they deserve their day in the sun? We should not pay for c1 sprinters that are going no where. Its a waste of resources and money better spent elsewhere. If the dog can't compete in C2, than retire the dog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know 150 Report post Posted March 17, 2017 ( wastage) my friend if we don't find a solution then we maybe just our own problem . There is nothing wrong with these dogs they are just not fast . Non totes just don't work as there is know money to play with . They should race for $500 to the winners 150 for 2nd and 50 for 3rd . No un place money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 203 Report post Posted March 17, 2017 7 hours ago, I know said: Yes but they were non tote races Ok yes but same principle basically. I kind of agree with making c2 the lowest grade for downgraders and keeping the free win in c1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonmccook1 2,359 Report post Posted March 18, 2017 23 hours ago, I know said: Yes but they were non tote races were non tote but still prize money I think was $500?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 18, 2017 On 3/17/2017 at 7:25 PM, I know said: ( wastage) my friend if we don't find a solution then we maybe just our own problem . There is nothing wrong with these dogs they are just not fast . Non totes just don't work as there is know money to play with . They should race for $500 to the winners 150 for 2nd and 50 for 3rd . No un place money. These same dogs need to retire eventually. Stop making excuses as these dogs need to be retired anyway. It shouldn't be the NZGRA responsibility to compensate for these dogs. Maybe we should move to a more American outlook on grading (Thank you to Yankiwi for supplying the page). http://www.gra-america.org/the_sport/at_the_track/gradingsystem.html . It will make people think twice before they breed with slow sprinters expecting champions. May also help with the 'wastage' problem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 18, 2017 Their grading system could do some good for our one over here. Here it is revised to suit our own grading (Thanks to Yankiwi again). Would certainly weed out all the dos that shouldnt be racing Easily converted to NZ grading. There will be six grades of greyhounds indicated C5, C4, C3, C2, C1, and C0 (Maiden). The winner of any race is advanced one grade until reaching grade "C5" If a greyhound fails to finish 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in three consecutive starts (except in Grade 'C2') or fails to earn more than one 3rd in four consecutive starts the same grade, that greyhound shall be lowered one grade. In Grade 'C2', a greyhound may fail to finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th in four consecutive starts before being lowered. In Grade 'C1' a greyhound failing to finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th in four consecutive starts will be disqualified from further racing. A maiden greyhound finishing fourth or better may at the request of the trainer be moved into grade "D" as a graded maiden. This greyhound must compete over the 3/8 mile course only until winning its first race. The Racing Secretary shall determine the grades for the various races. All races made up by the Racing Secretary shall be designated by the letters "RS" in the program. Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know 150 Report post Posted March 19, 2017 18 hours ago, alltheway!!! said: These same dogs need to retire eventually. Stop making excuses as these dogs need to be retired anyway. It shouldn't be the NZGRA responsibility to compensate for these dogs. Maybe we should move to a more American outlook on grading (Thank you to Yankiwi for supplying the page). http://www.gra-america.org/the_sport/at_the_track/gradingsystem.html . It will make people think twice before they breed with slow sprinters expecting champions. May also help with the 'wastage' problem Not making excuses at all and it is NZGRA and all lps problems this wastage and I hate the wording will be the downfall of the game . No one sets out to breed a slow dog but not ever dog has speed. No one wants to race for less money but there is nothing wrong with most of these slow dogs apart from being to slow to compete at a high level . You need to look after the grass roots or there is no game . bus stop 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bus stop 230 Report post Posted March 19, 2017 Northern clubs wouldnt be able to fill a race meeting if all the slow dogs etc were'nt nominated as i have stated before give the northern clubs 5-6years and its all over rover Also i hear through the grape vine Peter Fenamor had his contract terminated one day and reinstated the next this current board is going to bury this industry. To me the current board are building a castle surrounded with a mote with the draw bridge up and wanting to get rid of folks who have more of an idea of how to run the show then they do. come on ref 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 19, 2017 11 hours ago, bus stop said: Northern clubs wouldnt be able to fill a race meeting if all the slow dogs etc were'nt nominated as i have stated before give the northern clubs 5-6years and its all over rover Also i hear through the grape vine Peter Fenamor had his contract terminated one day and reinstated the next this current board is going to bury this industry. To me the current board are building a castle surrounded with a mote with the draw bridge up and wanting to get rid of folks who have more of an idea of how to run the show then they do. You will fine their are many litters being breed up North right now, The numbers in the North will only increase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaman 1,352 Report post Posted March 19, 2017 11 hours ago, bus stop said: Northern clubs wouldnt be able to fill a race meeting if all the slow dogs etc were'nt nominated as i have stated before give the northern clubs 5-6years and its all over rover Also i hear through the grape vine Peter Fenamor had his contract terminated one day and reinstated the next this current board is going to bury this industry. To me the current board are building a castle surrounded with a mote with the draw bridge up and wanting to get rid of folks who have more of an idea of how to run the show then they do. The current board are incompetent. They need to resign. I will elaborate later. come on ref 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETSUN 100 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 Please like & share... and if you can, please forward our SUGGESTIONS onto your local regulator and racing minister. #ItsTimeForChange #IfTheyChaseTheyRace ...See More ITS TIME FOR AN EVOLUTION OF OUR GRADING SYSTEM, AND A PRIZE MONEY OVERHAUL T3 or pathways were the first steps towards an inclusive and fair grading system. However, it doesn’t go far enough, and it’s not viable for trainers and owners to race for the “c… NGRU.ORG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETSUN 100 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 It amazes me that a few anonymous individuals think they have the right to decide whether a slower dog should be allowed to race or not. As above the welfare reforms in Australia are expanding all the time to assist with the problem of "wastage". Yes most of us would like to have C5 dogs but there are many owners out there that are just happy to have a dog going around. The problem is not slow dogs but the result of several rule changes and practices over recent years that have all added to the accumulated result of a clogged up C1 grade. I don't have a problem with the two wins in class one, if all the other problems were removed. It used to work. The changes, or going back to what worked before, that I would like to see includes: 1. Revert to the 4 misses to downgrade. 2. No downgrade below C2, and/or no dog can downgrade more than 2 grades below it,s highest grade achieved. 3. Remove the "running out noms" rule, except obviously when qualifying for a final. This was brought in with TAB betting to prevent small fields. With to days nomination system I doubt that the reserves would not cover dogs being scratched and less dogs would be double and triple nominated anyway. 4. The Assn revert to the "every race is a race" interpretation for the regrading/downgrading rules and drop this "series" rubbish. The only correct application of their theory would be that heats (being weaker) don't count with the final only being regraded. 5. The Assn have a close look at the "Penalty Free" situation and the number of so called races some clubs card. 6. Increase the number of lowgrade meetings held at least until the situation resolves it's self. I hope some of the owners/trainers out there can add some constructive comments to my thoughts, and be brave enough to sign their real name. bus stop and Yankiwi 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
I know 150 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 I have to disagree as an owner the 3 miss downgrade rule works , your not sitting on the sideline for weeks on end and you get back to a grade where you can compete at after getting a lucky win . What happens to the dogs that get stuck in c3 that can not compete there ? Be it injurie age etc . A dog must be able to run out noms as it give the dog racing experience before it reaches a higher grade then capable of . Look a dog must win 10k to pay for itself over a 3 year period or it costs the owner trainer money . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 Gordy, were you not "brave enough to put your real name" JETSUN 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 So we should support a grading structure that puts quantity over quality than? I I do not believe that having so many c1 sprinters is healthy for the industry which is why I personally feel that we should not support them. I am fine with having more 500m (even if it is c1grading) racing but current structure supports this notion of more is better rather than quality is better. And many people in NZ seem more than happy to breed ten sprinters who struggle to run past 375 right now rather than breed to try and get a few decent 500+ m dogs (even with the huge gap in prize money) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETSUN 100 Report post Posted March 20, 2017 2 hours ago, GOM said: Gordy, were you not "brave enough to put your real name" Sorry Mike Martin, too much haste, but it is in the earlier post. Gordon Wilson. PS. Reading some of the comments, I wonder with these unknown people just how many years experience they have had in the sport, and will they ever qualify as a "Grumpy Old Man". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted March 21, 2017 Good point Gordy, it is a double edge sword. One lot are calling for all the old fogeys from the 'old boys club' to go as they have had their day and stuffed it up while the rest are saying anyone who has not won a silver collar and an Auckland cup has no right to comment. The truth as usual is somewhere between. Anyone has the right to comment though and often it takes a new approach to see the obvious. Slim is an example, though hardly inexperienced his idea of two wins in class0, if there has to be two wins is brilliant and would immediately improve the class 1 backlog yet it is so obvious why hasn't somone thought of it before. I do agree with you about about not downgrading below c1. At the moment in NZ you can have a young one with little experience win one race and at its next start come up against a dog who has won over $100,000 and had 80 starts, not good. Mind you surely we would have the bottlenck just up a grade. Alltheway your comment about a dog who fails to run in the money 4 times needs retiring was not well thought out. What say is a wide runner or railer getting adverse box's surely it should get the chance to have things in its favour before it is written off.. What about a dog that has had bad luck and lost it's confidence surely it should be given a chance at rehabilitation. Brave Mike Martin JETSUN, alltheway!!! and bus stop 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, GOM said: Good point Gordy, it is a double edge sword. One lot are calling for all the old fogeys from the 'old boys club' to go as they have had their day and stuffed it up while the rest are saying anyone who has not won a silver collar and an Auckland cup has no right to comment. The truth as usual is somewhere between. Anyone has the right to comment though and often it takes a new approach to see the obvious. Slim is an example, though hardly inexperienced his idea of two wins in class0, if there has to be two wins is brilliant and would immediately improve the class 1 backlog yet it is so obvious why hasn't somone thought of it before. I do agree with you about about not downgrading below c1. At the moment in NZ you can have a young one with little experience win one race and at its next start come up against a dog who has won over $100,000 and had 80 starts, not good. Mind you surely we would have the bottlenck just up a grade. Alltheway your comment about a dog who fails to run in the money 4 times needs retiring was not well thought out. What say is a wide runner or railer getting adverse box's surely it should get the chance to have things in its favour before it is written off.. What about a dog that has had bad luck and lost it's confidence surely it should be given a chance at rehabilitation. Brave Mike Martin Yes. I agree it was not well thought out. Maybe give them one or two strikes before being retired. I was referencing the US system with that one. Probably too complicated for the staff at the NZGRA though. I agree slims idea is a great idea re two wins as a maiden. What I do wonder however is why they made a heat and final in c1 count as one win. This surely doesn't help. The issues with too many c1 dogs is affecting high grade races around the country, especially up north. This Sunday will be the third meeting at Auckland in a row without a c5 sprint and there are only two or three races graded c3 or above. Like I said, this can't be good for turnover. Maybe the bottleneck would be better of in c2-3 races so more dogs can get through the grades (but than this does nothing to help young dogs). I also would not mind seeing FFA races put on around the country. Increase the stakes to say 4-5k and have one or two a week at different tracks. Put different restrictions on the races. This would surely help with getting High grade races and maybe protecting young dogs from racing the best I don't expect them to come up with a perfect grading system that keeps everyone happy but surely they could find ways to improve the current system, starting by taking ideas from the trainers into account Moany Again 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...