Volomite/Globe Derby cross

[Rarebit of Sense 0]

Following on from the observation that Christian Cullen's top sire sons were traced back on their maternal line to Globe Derby or Strathmore line mares. I did a quick look at the top Ten of his earners. Surprise surprise. Here they are.

1. Gotta Go Cullen - Black Globe and Dillon Hall

2 Stunin Cullen - Black Globe and Dillon Hall

3. Mainland Banner - Our Thorpe( by OYM)

4 Lauraella - Scottish Command (Springfield Globe maternally), Black Globe and Dillon Hall

5 Kiwi Ingenuity - Dillon Hall

6 Likmesiah - Lordship

7 Classic Cullen - Smokey Hanover (Strathmore maternally) Red De Oro (Strathmore maternally)

9 Roman Gladiator - Lordship, Dillon Hall

10 Ohoka Arizona - Young Bob (Robert Derby)

Add to that of course Gotta Go Cullen and Gotta Go Cullect, as posted previously.

Champion colonial bred sires bringing out the best in colonial blood. Who'd have figured. Volomite/Globe Derby.

The reverse is also true. And I can think of a beautifully bred Globe Derby stallion who is throwing some beautiful foals, who might just be what the doctor ordered for Christian Cullen mares.

[Guest Burt Bacharach]

Everything old is sort of new again Dave.

Edgar Tatlow was doing that with great success more than half a century ago in Tasmania by importing Raider & breeding him to all those Globe Derby line mares he had on hand.

In exactly the same way that No Nukes over Abercrombie & the reverse worked & has continued to work generation after generation, so has the cross of the Peter The Great line over the Strathmore line, and in the case of Tasmania even firing when grandsons of Raider were bred to mares by grandsons of Globe Derby.

[bustoharland 2]

but how a high percentage of mares cullen served have this blood? 90%?? higher

[Guest Burt Bacharach]

That makes too much sense Buster.

You'll have to try again with something more outlandish. :-P

[Rarebit of Sense 0]

Six of those top ten (and those top Christian Cullen sires Gotta Go Cullen, Gotta Go Cullect, Stunin Cullen - he will go to stud) have double Globe Derby/ Strathmore maternally (Dillon Hall is a double maternal). There are very few that fall into that category in the general studbook, although some of the top families have it like Norice and Rosehaven. About 60 per cent (at a quick calculation out of the latest sales catalogue) have some Strathmore maternally, the number with two or more live lines, would be perhaps a quarter of that number. CC is still batting way above average when he gets mares with STRONG Globe Derby maternal lines.

[flakjacket 0]

you have only raised this rarebit of sense as you have a stallion that you are trying to get people to go to as you have that line hahah

[Rarebit of Sense 0]

Gee that was hard to work out.

Just a wee clarification, he is not my stallion, nor do I lease him.

I helped get him over here, because the owner asked me to. We did it because we are huge fans of the Globe Derby line. So were a few people on this chatroom.

It was here that the discussion about what happened to the breed was first debated, after that HRNZ poll on the best NZ Cup, which featured two great Globe Derbys Inky Lord and Lord Module.

It was in this chatroom where the ball started rolling to get him here, and a lot of people seem to be interested in his progress. It makes a little bit of a change from some of the other negative issues. I see it as positive, trying to do something different. Trying to make a difference.

Globe Derby and Volomite (or more correctly Strathmore and Peter The Great) have both been very important to the New Zealand breeding industry.

PTG horses Light Brigade, U Scott, Dillon Hall and Wrack along with Jack Potts (Direct), were the foundation sires in this part of the world. Dillon Hall and U Scott had Strathmore on their maternal side and that crossed very well with Globe Derby, when his lines appeared in the 1940s.

PTG and Globe Derby virtually disappeared off the scene thanks to the Meadow Skipper madness and the advent of AI in the 80s and 90s, but a rejected US horse called In The Pocket changed all that.

He opened the way for his sons, who have been fabulously successful.

The fact that both Christian Cullen and Courage Under Fire

[bustoharland 2]

why would anyone want to throw back to old blood? theres no way i'd ever send a mare to an under performed, poorly bred stallion

[abnormal1456 0]

Gee that was hard to work out.

Just a wee clarification, he is not my stallion, nor do I lease him.

I helped get him over here, because the owner asked me to. We did it because we are huge fans of the Globe Derby line. So were a few people on this chatroom.

It was here that the discussion about what happened to the breed was first debated, after that HRNZ poll on the best NZ Cup, which featured two great Globe Derbys Inky Lord and Lord Module.

It was in this chatroom where the ball started rolling to get him here, and a lot of people seem to be interested in his progress. It makes a little bit of a change from some of the other negative issues. I see it as positive, trying to do something different. Trying to make a difference.

Globe Derby and Volomite (or more correctly Strathmore and Peter The Great) have both been very important to the New Zealand breeding industry.

PTG horses Light Brigade, U Scott, Dillon Hall and Wrack along with Jack Potts (Direct), were the foundation sires in this part of the world. Dillon Hall and U Scott had Strathmore on their maternal side and that crossed very well with Globe Derby, when his lines appeared in the 1940s.

PTG and Globe Derby virtually disappeared off the scene thanks to the Meadow Skipper madness and the advent of AI in the 80s and 90s, but a rejected US horse called In The Pocket changed all that.

He opened the way for his sons, who have been fabulously successful.

The fact that both Christian Cullen and Courage Under Fire

[globederby 8]

why would anyone want to throw back to old blood? theres no way i'd ever send a mare to an under performed, poorly bred stallion

As we all know,breeding is a lottery anyway,its just a matter of limiting the odds of failure by picking the best crosses.

Unfortunately AI has reduced the gene pool drastically, resulting in clone horses,most all the same with real champions popping up ever so rarely.I use the term Real champions here as we have lost the meaning these days of the term. Hence the fact that discarded horses like In The Pocket turn up,because they dont fit in to the super sire mentality. The rest is history. Why not take the punt and breed to to a proven line,however old, lengthen the odds a bit maybe,but look outside the square.

Good luck to those who attempt it .I would dearly love the Globe derby line to flourish again, who knows???.

Stick to your "clone " horses Busta,the industry needs innovation,not repetition.

Cheers The Globe

[bustoharland 2]

ill stick to my clone horses with high speed, athleticism and soundness any day

[Tigger 0]

Dave, why don't you try locating that article I was telling you about the other day and repeating the analysis? I'll warrant the stats would back you up, it would just be difficult finding the article.

Tigger

ps. my head still hasn't stopped spinning

[abnormal1456 0]

ps. my head still hasn't stopped spinning

On the piss HAHA

[Tigger 0]

No I don't drink. Or gamble for that matter. I just love watching good horses race.

[Rarebit of Sense 0]

Thanks for the support guys.

I couldn't find that article Tigger.

But as I keep on banging on about, what we are doing has happened time and again in thoroughbreds, Sea The Stars last year, Tiznow a couple of years before that. Tesio, the bloke before the programme you all use, was a great believer in two things, the benefits of inbreeding, and in nicks which he defined as where certain sirelines gave their best results when crossed with each other. Tesio bred his first ever Italian Derby winner by copying the successful Isonomy-Hermit cross, by breeding a granddaughter of Isonomy to an average stallion called Melanion, by Hermit. The result was Guido Reni, his first classic winner. Globe Derby, Volomite was such a nick. It can and will I'm sure happen again.

PS the Axworthys are not dead either, I've found two unraced sons of Preux Chevalier out of very nice NZ families, who are from his last crop, 12 YOs. One is a direct descendant from Haughty, which means both his sire and dam are from two of the greatest NZ families, Parisienne and Norice.

We all know how good the Axworthys-George Wilkes lines were as broodmare sires, Lumber Dream, Bachelor Hanover, Rey De Oro - some of our greatest.

We have set up a company and one of the future goals is to get as much of this genuine well-bred outcross blood frozen down, so that breeders in the future will have a supply to experiment with. It won't affect fashionistas like Busto, but we think there may well be a genuine demand for it in the future.

[Guest Burt Bacharach]

ill stick to my clone horses with high speed, athleticism and soundness any day

You tell 'em Buster.

Any time anyone wants to try & tell you that the gene pool has narrowed & then proceeds to use it as a justification for breeding to all but defunct sirelines, then that's the time Alarm Bells should start to ring. It wasn't so long ago that Dobby & Ken Jackson ranwith that alarmist 'the gene pool is narrowing-the sky is falling' routine in the USA when Christian Cullen was standing at Kentuckiana. It was of course crap then just as it is now and as it will always be.

[bustoharland 2]

well apparently they like inbreeding, but they want to expand a narrowing gene pool??

[Rarebit of Sense 0]

It's a bit like that. The theory is to inbreed on the maternal side, and outcross on the sire side. It is called returning to the stallion the best blood of his dam. But the outcross on the sire side is also important, linebreeding is a big no no.

If you email me at colonialbreed@hotmail.co.nz, I'll email you the sire profiles and pedigree matches of all the horses in the last Hambletonian and Hambletonian Oaks. I'll also then email you the pedigree of Break The Bank N, which is one of the top ones, who missed the Hambo, but ran second against the same horses in the Canadian Trotting Classic. That is how the Americans have been breeding for many years. From what I gather, the French do the exact opposite, but the Scandinavians are following the Yanks, but with horses from both pools and Break The Bank N is one of theirs. He is French on top and American underneath, and he can run a bit. It's an example of what I've been banging on about, an outcross on the sireline with a matching maternal pedigree seems to be able to lift a horse to be greater than the sum of its genetic parts. We can't match many of our mares to the maternal lines to many of the American stallions, and that is why when an American stallion comes across like In The Pocket, who does, it just takes off, and is also why then the sons do even better, because they already have the ability to easily make those maternal matches. But you still need a steady flow of outcross on the male side. As I said, Volomite has made a comeback as an outcross sire, and it might be time for Globe Derby to come back. Now is it beginning to make sense.

[designer 17]

well apparently they like inbreeding, but they want to expand a narrowing gene pool??

Back to school mate !

LINEBREEDING occurs when both sire and dam have the same SIRELINE

INBREEDING occurs when the sum of the generations to get to the same horse on the sireline is 6 or less

Hope you haven't sent any of your mares to the following stallions with the characteristics you so dislike...

American Ideal

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Badlands Hanover

Inbred maternally and 4x3 to Most Happy Fella on the sireline

Grinfromeartoear

Inbred maternally and 5x4 to Adios on the sireline

Holmes Hanover

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Jeremes Jet

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Major in Art

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Muscles Yankee

Inbred maternally and 4x2 to Speedy Crown on the sireline

Raffaello Ambrosio

Inbred maternally and 6x4 to Speedy Scot on the sireline

Real Desire

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline (if you cant get the drift from this one then theres no hope)

So 5 mins with the sires book to get this list of inbred maternally pretty average performers

[bustoharland 2]

in case you haven't realised, i couldnt give a f*ck about your sire line ****, i send mares to stallions that suit them or are proven to that mare previously

[globederby 8]

He,s got the blinkers on Designer,or he is totally ignorant about inbreeding and linebreeding?.

[bustoharland 2]

ah no, i see no merit in your breeding ideas

[Guest Burt Bacharach]

Back to school mate !

LINEBREEDING occurs when both sire and dam have the same SIRELINE

INBREEDING occurs when the sum of the generations to get to the same horse on the sireline is 6 or less

Hope you haven't sent any of your mares to the following stallions with the characteristics you so dislike...

American Ideal

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Badlands Hanover

Inbred maternally and 4x3 to Most Happy Fella on the sireline

Grinfromeartoear

Inbred maternally and 5x4 to Adios on the sireline

Holmes Hanover

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Jeremes Jet

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Major in Art

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline

Muscles Yankee

Inbred maternally and 4x2 to Speedy Crown on the sireline

Raffaello Ambrosio

Inbred maternally and 6x4 to Speedy Scot on the sireline

Real Desire

Inbred maternally and outcrossed on the sireline (if you cant get the drift from this one then theres no hope)

So 5 mins with the sires book to get this list of inbred maternally pretty average performers

Good morning Designer,

The way in which many horse breeders choose to use the terms 'In-bred, Line-bred and Outcrossed' does not in fact hold entirely true with the respective genetic definitions of those terms.

There is really only ONE horse on that list that is truly In-bred, American Idea, as both his sire & his dam trace to the same immediate maternal family.

The same thing applies to another horse that you have left off that list, Tell All.

The 'sum of the generations is 6 or less, therefore a given horse is in-bred...'angle is just nuts. I'm yet to see a picture of a Double Helix that's carrying a Calculator.

Genes simply don't recognise nor do they abide by 'loose breeding theory' that has been specifically created in order to allow people to theoretically pigeon hole their interactions by way of printed pedigrees.

[designer 17]

Burt,Thanks for your reasoned response and I accept that people have different angles on the theories and I'm not going to pick hairs but just pointing out some facts as i see them.

I'm not saying either that maternal inbreeding is the be all and end all - just one of the tools that can be used to make a sound breeding choice.

By the way, there are TWO horses on that list that are truly inbred according to your theory - RAFFAELLO AMBROSIO has both sire Victory Dream and dam Tishes Wish from the maternal family of Minnehaha

[Guest Burt Bacharach]

Burt,Thanks for your reasoned response and I accept that people have different angles on the theories and I'm not going to pick hairs but just pointing out some facts as i see them.

I'm not saying either that maternal inbreeding is the be all and end all - just one of the tools that can be used to make a sound breeding choice.

By the way, there are TWO horses on that list that are truly inbred according to your theory - RAFFAELLO AMBROSIO has both sire Victory Dream and dam Tishes Wish from the maternal family of Minnehaha

Good afternoon Designer,

I can't comment on the Trotter, not at all familiar with his pedigree. Interesting just the same.

As for the Pacers, both American Ideal & Tell All offer excellent & quite fascinating opportunities to breeders by way of the possibilities their respective pedigrees raise.

If you flip the whole thing upside down, in their cases you have stallions that are maternally In-bred through sire & dam, covering in many cases mares that are effectively an outcross.

I've read of quite a few instances where in-bred dams have proven to be excellent producers when bred to outcross sires.

I can't see any reason why that would not work in reverse, as in In-bred sires bred to Outcross mares. Does that make any sense?