Good vs Bad trainers

[gubellini 3,995]

SMD the horse is Roger Jon owned by Ronald Williams and trained at Avondale.

[SMD is rife 211]

Correct.

[Midget 4,489]

2 hours ago, TBL said:

good or bad trainer is the experience you get. Also will greatly depend on your own interest to the deal/horse. There are infinitely numerous dynamics and variables as skills upon training and it is not tell you see some right/wrong 'patterns' or an open disclosure from others experiences that you MAY just bite your lip.

 it dawned on me that it is NOT the trainer per say, but the stables and operation or how the training is approached with professionalism and as a business structure versus old-fashioned horsemanship of the better small trainers. Yet, large stables will carry a 'brand'/logo which widely influences peoples perspective as 'better'. More horses go through, more so it is a numbers game to get the right one and or, as they develop up and also 'better' clientele with the pockets.

From own experience (& not having the pocket) but when going to a top trainer and went to visit my girl, only to see the foreman ran the shift-operation and the trainer seemed always away though we booked our 'visit in advance only to find they where busy tending to a noted stud & their horses. That was okay, tell the phone went and there was a problem with her  rearing in track work. Got her home and couldn't make out anything wrong. Gave her a long spell.

Went to a small trainer (old slow patient methods) and horribly learnt had the wool pulled over our eyes ..... by two pre-trainers breaking tactics & their feed-back ( 2nd one from above trainer operation). 

I shopped around for ages, looking for 'right' trainer who might fit the horse. He is a battler and good trainer ( in my eyes) because of right inputs for the horse. There was a lot of re-education. Yet by others their accounts he doesn't rate ...yet got other horses going for a large renowned stable to have them winning. No credit given back either.

ranting on the mare..... I know/he knows and other reputable ex-jockeys have ridden to know she has 'it' by how she feels in the saddle but can't (to date) get the result.

Why...and this is what I mean by big stables having a reputation/ 'brand' /logo to securing top jockeys & enforcing their 'might' elsewhere I might add.

So....  The mare likes clean space and to lead out in front and she has more than enough to at the very least pick up some stakes. But what do the jockeys do, ignore instructions, pull her back and get her in a pocket time & time again. Then pull the whip out - she goes backwards cause they can't get the best out of her. The Feedback from jockey is 'wet' nonsense.

So I went to ex Dave O'sullivan jockey/staff) ) and asked what do you reckon is going on....

Greater trainers know how to fine-tune.

Jockeys make or break the horse, hence make her break the stables/trainers reputation. Its all inclusive. The innate skills of good riders & greater riding is not there, cause of change of apprenticeship standards and the idea of professional riding has changed to accommodate racing as we know it today. There's the pity.

There are 'bad' trainers out there who are just plain farming clients & their money. Those are the horses, where the owners are well away from the situation by location or are gullible in themselves that they are satisfactorily trained and can accept a 'gentle-lie'  - mate, your horse is well and eating well. Yeah...don't that sound nice!

Stats on trainers don't mean a things....its the horse all-right but I fear (better) small trainers don't get honest chance. It's an industry problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well there we go, we are in the presence of greatness.

An absolute expert in every matter associated with training, riding and whatever else is required.

Are you a food critic too, an All Black, and a part time brain surgeon, because you are quite some expert !!!

 

[Catalano 951]

It was a tough read, but TBL makes a good point about the big trainers being able to obtain the good jockeys - hard to put a price on that!

Also, as he says, some horses suit some trainers - it's not one size fits all 

[gubellini 3,995]

Noel Eales was the benchmark for me. Great strike rate trainer. Attention to detail. Nothing for him to change horse rugs/ sheets several times a day and NIGHT to keep them happy. Ditto Jim Tompkinson from an earlier era.

[TBL 32]

1 hour ago, Midget said:

Well there we go, we are in the presence of greatness.

An absolute expert in every matter associated with training, riding and whatever else is required.

Are you a food critic too, an All Black, and a part time brain surgeon, because you are quite some expert !!!

 

No Midget, I bow down to your powers or Knowledge, which actually I greatly admire & note - even so with your cynical humour.

not an expert as you qualify  (buy hey, I'll take that compliment if it is intended  

-  always observing/noting following things through best way one can.  Unfortunately got into racing as something on my bucket list and found a festival buy at $13,500 which turns out to be as quoted est. $500K should she go through as a broodmare at auction. No I haven't made that one up either where trainer's uncle is management at NZ Bloodstock  thank you.

FYI  , that 1st ever buy at bloodstock wasn't luck. Elite Bloodlines have the story so that is my expertise albeit it Skill/research?

You share your intelligence as you like BUT don't fart on us forum newcomers who stick their neck out and actively share thoughts/experiences 'cause there are some out there who want to really Learn or discuss how it works. Okay?

 

 

 

 

[Midget 4,489]

I rode for them both a lot, Slippery Eales was fantastic but there was only one Tonky, and there'll never be another, he wasn't just ahead of his time, he was a lifetime ahead of the industry.

Two marvellous men though, and it'd be remiss not to mention DJ and Gibbsy in the same breath don't you think ?

[Midget 4,489]

2 minutes ago, TBL said:

No Midget, I bow down to your powers or Knowledge, which actually I greatly admire & note - even so with your cynical humour.

not an expert as you qualify  (buy hey, I'll take that compliment if it is intended  

-  always observing/noting following things through best way one can.  Unfortunately got into racing as something on my bucket list and found a festival buy at $13,500 which turns out to be as quoted est. $500K should she go through as a broodmare at auction. No I haven't made that one up either where trainer's uncle is management at NZ Bloodstock  thank you.

FYI  , that 1st ever buy at bloodstock wasn't luck. Elite Bloodlines have the story so that is my expertise albeit it Skill/research?

You share your intelligence as you like BUT don't fart on us forum newcomers who stick their neck out and actively share thoughts/experiences 'cause there are some out there who want to really Learn or discuss how it works. Okay?

 

 

 

 

Fine by me, appoint yourself an expert then....but don't limit it to training, take a job as a High Court judge, or a surgeon if you know that much, why not fly Boeings, no fuck it, fly the space shuttle, when you're not busy designing submarines or singing opera.

Why do you all put trainers and jockeys down ? You haven't done it have you ? you almost certainly couldn't do it, but you can't wait to get on here and bury a knife in their backs, presumably because you lost money during the exercise and you want to blame someone else for your failings !! 

It's an easy out, blame the trainer or jockey, but it's pathetic, as pathetic as blaming Steve Hansen when the All Blacks lose.

[TBL 32]

5 minutes ago, Midget said:

Fine by me, appoint yourself an expert then....but don't limit it to training, take a job as a High Court judge, or a surgeon if you know that much, why not fly Boeings, no fuck it, fly the space shuttle, when you're not busy designing submarines or singing opera.

Why do you all put trainers and jockeys down ? You haven't done it have you ? you almost certainly couldn't do it, but you can't wait to get on here and bury a knife in their backs, presumably because you lost money during the exercise and you want to blame someone else for your failings !! 

It's an easy out, blame the trainer or jockey, but it's pathetic, as pathetic as blaming Steve Hansen when the All Blacks lose.

- Blame??? you've taken all I have expressed out of context and can't take a back-hand compliment to yourself when it is given.

I try to understand another's point of view, for the ultimate benefit of the horse as to get best outcome or her. You would know there are many fine-point decisions through training as I recognise now as owner.

Don't understand why you are so hostile? Only trying to reconcile differences that 'newer' racing people can experience.

[Midget 4,489]

Because I don't like seeing trainers and jockey's being maligned and ridiculed, mind you I don't like listening to amateur food critics either.

 

[Blue 1,095]

Lochanure (Bill Sanders again)  ran 15 times as a 2 year old, but still well short of 22.

[Blue 1,095]

A guy told me in the 60's "if you want a good trainer for your horse pick a man who has had three 'good' horses." Still possibly realistic today but the problem is how do you quantify a good horse? Alternatively there are lots of trainers who have had lots of winners but to find one who has had three good ones certainly sorts the men from the boys.

[barryb 2,064]

The best trainers are ones where you give them a horse & you can trust them enough leave them to it & where you feel like you are not getting shafted/bullshitted.

They know more about horses/training than you do, so keep the heck out of the way & let them get on with the job, pay the bills on time and trust they will tell you if needed when its time to pull pin.

Everything else is immaterial if the above can't happen.

[jeepers 276]

6 minutes ago, barryb said:

The best trainers are ones where you give them a horse & you can trust them enough leave them to it & where you feel like you are not getting shafted/bullshitted.

They know more about horses/training than you do, so keep the heck out of the way & let them get on with the job, pay the bills on time and trust they will tell you if needed when its time to pull pin.

Everything else is immaterial if the above can't happen.

You are so right Barryb but some trainers have to have the below average horses in their stable in order to survive. Honesty is the best advice however some owners do not like being told their horse is only average or worse.

I believe most top liners show ability from early days.They are natural athletes, just as some young kids are.

Once one has been bullshitted to and later finds out,one does not go back for a second helping.

[Big Boned 32]

When, where and why. If a trainer can answer those types of questions truthfully they are good trainers. In fact if they are good trainers you would have received an email or call explaining the reasoning.

[goldcape 43]

Good trainers make a living out of training winners. Bad trainers make their living by training horses. Of course the latter don't usually last very long unless they have wealthy stupid owners.

[Nachos 7]

In my point of view, a top trainer is a top horseman. - someone who can take a crap horse and make it average, take an average horse and make it ok, and take an ok horse and make it 'good'. However, often the real horsemen never get the opportunity of having a 'great' horse, because their focus is on the animal - not the people.

I feel that what often makes a trainer appear to be 'good' is, as TBL alluded to, the 'brand' of the trainer. In order to be a 'brand' they are generally fabulous talkers - basically salesmen, who are able to capture wealthy clients, who invest heavily in the horses. They therefore will often have a huge number of horses in work. In regards to actual 'training', they may sit at the track in the morning spinning yarns, but not actually dealing with the animal. These trainers also have a huge number of horses  However, many of those in work never go to the races because they either:

1. break down

2. aren't good enough.

As the trainer is basically running a 'sausage factory' operation, if one horse doesn't stand up, the wealthy owners have another horse waiting in line. As a result, their horses tend to be well bred and their winning stats will automatically be high because they have, essentially, the pick of the crop. It then turns into a cycle of what appears to be success.

However, the horsemen isn't often a salesman, so doesn't get wealthy owners at their door. This isn't to say they are rude or poor communicators (often they are anything but), but they are not a really charismatic personality.  Because they don't get the wealthy owners, they often have shares in the majority of horses they do have, and because they don't have the wealthy owners, often have to sell their better horses just to survive. As a result their appearance of 'success' (having really high strike rates, or winning group races) is less. And, like the salesman trainers cycle of success continues, the horsemen's cycle of average horses continues.

If I was looking for a new trainer, I would approach jockeys and ask their opinion about which trainers they think are the best 'horsemen' and go with them - the jocks know who they are.

 

 

[Huey 2,037]

On 04/03/2017 at 7:05 PM, Nachos said:

In my point of view, a top trainer is a top horseman. - someone who can take a crap horse and make it average, take an average horse and make it ok, and take an ok horse and make it 'good'. However, often the real horsemen never get the opportunity of having a 'great' horse, because their focus is on the animal - not the people.

I feel that what often makes a trainer appear to be 'good' is, as TBL alluded to, the 'brand' of the trainer. In order to be a 'brand' they are generally fabulous talkers - basically salesmen, who are able to capture wealthy clients, who invest heavily in the horses. They therefore will often have a huge number of horses in work. In regards to actual 'training', they may sit at the track in the morning spinning yarns, but not actually dealing with the animal. These trainers also have a huge number of horses  However, many of those in work never go to the races because they either:

1. break down

2. aren't good enough.

As the trainer is basically running a 'sausage factory' operation, if one horse doesn't stand up, the wealthy owners have another horse waiting in line. As a result, their horses tend to be well bred and their winning stats will automatically be high because they have, essentially, the pick of the crop. It then turns into a cycle of what appears to be success.

However, the horsemen isn't often a salesman, so doesn't get wealthy owners at their door. This isn't to say they are rude or poor communicators (often they are anything but), but they are not a really charismatic personality.  Because they don't get the wealthy owners, they often have shares in the majority of horses they do have, and because they don't have the wealthy owners, often have to sell their better horses just to survive. As a result their appearance of 'success' (having really high strike rates, or winning group races) is less. And, like the salesman trainers cycle of success continues, the horsemen's cycle of average horses continues.

If I was looking for a new trainer, I would approach jockeys and ask their opinion about which trainers they think are the best 'horsemen' and go with them - the jocks know who they are.

 

 

Great post & bang on!

[talk 308]

On 3/4/2017 at 7:05 PM, Nachos said:

 

As the trainer is basically running a 'sausage factory' operation, if one horse doesn't stand up, the wealthy owners have another horse waiting in line. As a result, their horses tend to be well bred and their winning stats will automatically be high because they have, essentially, the pick of the crop. It then turns into a cycle of what appears to be success.

 

 

 

Nachos, I agree with a lot of what you say except your inference that the two groups, 'sausage factory' operations and good trainers, are mutually exclusive. If it is the likes of Stephen Autridge, Murray Baker and Lance O'Sullivan who you are referring to as 'sausage factory' operators then, in my opinion, they also fit perfectly into the 'good trainers' classification. 

[rdytdy 5,341]

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 4:32 PM, Blue said:

Lochanure (Bill Sanders again)  ran 15 times as a 2 year old, but still well short of 22.

As I have mentioned previously on another thread. Satisfy had 23 starts as a 2yo winning the Manawatu Sires Produce Stakes and going on the win the NZ Derby on Boxing Day as a 3yo.

[Ohokaman 5,825]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:24 PM, goldcape said:

Good trainers make a living out of training winners. Bad trainers make their living by training horses. Of course the latter don't usually last very long unless they have wealthy stupid owners.

Hope you are not one Cubes....

[rdytdy 5,341]

Have a look at the video replay these two horses last two starts, Miz Oldfileds Road and Iff So Happens both trained by John Moeka at Hastings.

At the twilight meeting at Hastings on Thursday afternoon both horses run distant lasts, Miz Oldfields Road some 14.6 lengths behind the winner and Iff So Happens 13.6 lengths behind the winner.

They are then floated to Ellerslie for Saturday's Derby Day meeting and both line up in R2. They both end up being tailed off, Iff So Happens 25.7 lengths from the winner and Miz Oldfields Road some 29.3 lengths from the winner. Some 16 and 20 lengths behind the third last horse.  

Makes you wonder.

From the Stewards report:

MIZ OLDFIELDS ROAD and IFF SO HAPPENS, which had both raced at the Hastings twilight meeting on Thursday, underwent pre-race veterinary inspections before being passed fit to run.   Both MIZ OLDFIELDS ROAD and IFF SO HAPPENS were beaten runners prior to the final turn and were not persevered with in the final straight.    Both mares underwent post-race veterinary inspections and were found to be showing the effects of recent racing.   Mr Moeke was spoken to regarding this aspect and advised that both mares are now required to trial satisfactorily prior to racing again.

 

 

[Varro 244]

10 hours ago, rdytdy said:

Have a look at the video replay these two horses last two starts, Miz Oldfileds Road and Iff So Happens both trained by John Moeka at Hastings.

At the twilight meeting at Hastings on Thursday afternoon both horses run distant lasts, Miz Oldfields Road some 14.6 lengths behind the winner and Iff So Happens 13.6 lengths behind the winner.

They are then floated to Ellerslie for Saturday's Derby Day meeting and both line up in R2. They both end up being tailed off, Iff So Happens 25.7 lengths from the winner and Miz Oldfields Road some 29.3 lengths from the winner. Some 16 and 20 lengths behind the third last horse.  

Makes you wonder.

From the Stewards report:

MIZ OLDFIELDS ROAD and IFF SO HAPPENS, which had both raced at the Hastings twilight meeting on Thursday, underwent pre-race veterinary inspections before being passed fit to run.   Both MIZ OLDFIELDS ROAD and IFF SO HAPPENS were beaten runners prior to the final turn and were not persevered with in the final straight.    Both mares underwent post-race veterinary inspections and were found to be showing the effects of recent racing.   Mr Moeke was spoken to regarding this aspect and advised that both mares are now required to trial satisfactorily prior to racing again.

 

 

I don't know the bloke, but perhaps he is just a hobby trainer, having a crack with his own horses?  I must say though, I saw Miss Ozfields road race on that Thursday, was surprised to see it run again on the Saturday.  I backed the thing about 4 starts ago when running 4th paying over 100 to 1, it will win a weak maiden at big odds at some point.  But strange because in previous races had gone to the front, and at ellerslie was gone as they jumped. quite strange

This is not a crtiticism at all, but you sometimes see Mr Kevin Dell line up a couple of horses, and they are usually long shots who sometimes don't make it

[Varro 244]

On ‎6‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 1:19 PM, rdytdy said:

As I have mentioned previously on another thread. Satisfy had 23 starts as a 2yo winning the Manawatu Sires Produce Stakes and going on the win the NZ Derby on Boxing Day as a 3yo.

what is interesting is back in 1987, the 200 guneas was run for 200k, shows we haven't really progressed that far when most of our group 1's are still 200k

[Mattski 176]

Cripes in 1987 you could prob get a decent house in Aucks for $200k!