Purcell on Weigh In on Monday

[Guest 2Admin2]

Na.  It is simple.  Good tracks and no tiered stakes.  That is put money into the grass roots.

[Racing84 254]

1 hour ago, Trump said:

Forget Raceday attendance children! The money is in the race fields providing an attraction to bet on. Without betting/punting/wagering or whatever u want to call it, there is no racing. Where's the money going to come from? If betting turnover isn't rising then under the "current" setup, the system is stuffed. If a Purcell said there's "no money", then he should be working out a plan to get it. 

Totally agree that the money coming in from gambling is the key, and to me, it is essential that the TAB has modern systems, reliable and thorough information readily available, and competitive betting options which encourage people to bet with the TAB instead of elsewhere.  I would love to know how much gambling done by people based in NZ has gone up in the past few years, as I'm sure it would be significant, and the flat-lining of the revenue reflects how much betting $$ is going offshore.  

However, there are two ways to improve the financial performance of a business, and the first is obviously to sell more.  The second is to manage / reduce costs and this is an area where the Racing Board can make massive inroads without having to get more $$ from the punter.  

The industry can assist by doing what it can to attract people to be interested in racing by putting on a good product (i.e. good, competitive racing), with strong integrity to provide confidence to people to invest their money (whether it be as owners, or punters).

[biff 2,158]

25 minutes ago, hesi said:

Apologies Tom, should have qualified that by saying a competently staffed, proactive national body.

Why is Racing stuffed, quite simple, it's revenue has not grown enough, it has not competed with the other forms of wagering and entertainment for it's share of each new generation(there's the answer to why 2 mil on the doorstep and very few interested in Racing).  Quite the opposite, it's lost the dominant market share it had 35 years ago, and nothing has been done to arrest that.

I'll just re-quote the Lotto example, every Lotto shop in NZ pays a levy to the Lotteries Commission, and part of that levy goes towards full on branding and promotion on nationwide mainstream media.  As long as Lotto has that set up it will remain strong, as long as they don't employ anybody who has been remotely associated with racing

If Racing had put in place some sort of system like that, then it would not have been in such a state.

But racing is just a collection of clubs, loosely bound by this largely administrative body that has neither a budget, responsibility or income stream for marketing

Once again, you licence 100 bookmakers, corporates inc, and tax them same as the Oz model, watch what happens, TAB has to compete, the revenue stream flow on's come back to grass root racing! how else do VIC Picnics run a 5 race program, at least 10 bookmakers on course and huge crowds, now that's grass roots, NON TAB meetings race for pretty much what we do at our TAB meetings, the whole model here is rooted, and it's not like it crept up and bit you on the arse, you blokes [and sheilas] should have seen it happening, however, it is what it is, so we all need to deal with it.

[shaneMcAlister 1,425]

Here is an advertisement I would run:

show a person buying a lotto ticket and the chance of winning a $250K from a $5 ticket is 1 in 8 million  

whereas a person spending a $5 bet only needs to pick the winner of 7 races at odds of no more than $5 each would win over $300k. That is 1 in 60,000. Massive difference.

It is crazy buying lotto tickets. Get people to treat a trip to the tab like buying a lotto ticket. 

[Peter Harrop 226]

12 minutes ago, shaneMcAlister said:

whereas a person spending a $5 bet only needs to pick the winner of 7 races at odds of no more than $5 each would win over $300k.

... except the maximum payout on a fixed odds multi is $250k. But I get your point.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

2 hours ago, TOM(the other Molloy) said:

What?

The whole issue is the Clubs(and the other stakeholders) having no power over NZTR or the NZRB not the other direction.

The grass roots are not being listened to.  If you gave NZTR 'power' over the Clubs(they have got enough already to be fair)n we would end up with Clubs being run incompetently just like NZTR and NZRB 

Bring back Club, Trainer, Owner and maybe even Punter power over these out of control halfwits and it would be a start.  Then get rid of the deadwood Glenda, Nathan Guy and John Allen and get some people with an actual passion for the game in the driving seat.

 

 

 

You are correct. It has swung a long way from the time of parochial clubs failing to see the "bigger picture", to a point where they aren't even in the movie, even as extras.

[Turny 1,224]

6 hours ago, rdytdy said:

 

Read it all

Folks it is totally fooked - its over - salvage what you can - exit now - you had the  power - not now tho - Too little Too late - Very sad for you all, but you have been negligent in not being strong - the price you are all paying is severe - but deserved  -  thank god for Aussie racing 

[Insider 3,947]

8 hours ago, MrBigStuff said:

We need to be closing venues and having for want of a better word "super venues" 

nz cannot continue on the same model it has done for years, it simply will not work.

time for people to wake up and smell the coffee. A classic example is Pakenham, nz should be following along the example of this venue, it looks top class and people have only positive things to say about it. Having 50 something racetracks in the country is not sustainable IMO

Mr Big Stuff, let's put your ideas to the test, not the closing down of venues but the creating of a super venue or venues. 

The perfect place to test your theory is obviously in the area of the greatest population and it just so happens that Ellerslie has 40 million in the bank so why not start there. 

Give them a call and make your suggestion. 

In the meantime I will watch the outcome. 

 

[Insider 3,947]

7 hours ago, 2Admin2 said:

Exactly get back to basics.  Focus on those that tracks that AREN'T STUFFED!  At least get a decent and safe product racing!  At least that will generate income.  All the flash facilities generate is operational expense!!!

Plus fix those that aren't stuffed.  Flash facilities unless for the horses and those that put on the show aren't going to save the industry.

Trentham will put up another fantastic/perfect track on Saturday.

[Turny 1,224]

5 minutes ago, Insider said:

Trentham will put up another fantastic/perfect track on Saturday.

The home of NZ Racing - it will deliver

[Ohokaman 5,829]

1 hour ago, shaneMcAlister said:

Here is an advertisement I would run:

show a person buying a lotto ticket and the chance of winning a $250K from a $5 ticket is 1 in 8 million  

whereas a person spending a $5 bet only needs to pick the winner of 7 races at odds of no more than $5 each would win over $300k. That is 1 in 60,000. Massive difference.

It is crazy buying lotto tickets. Get people to treat a trip to the tab like buying a lotto ticket. 

The difference there is chance versus skill. The computer does one, you have to do the other. Too hard for most...

[We're Doomed 4,855]

The most obvious thing to come out of this interesting conversation is that there are six or seven people on here with more passion, knowledge and inspiration for the racing industry than most of those involved in its administration at the higher levels.

[globederby12 1,495]

35 minutes ago, Insider said:

Mr Big Stuff, let's put your ideas to the test, not the closing down of venues but the creating of a super venue or venues. 

The perfect place to test your theory is obviously in the area of the greatest population and it just so happens that Ellerslie has 40 million in the bank so why not start there. 

Give them a call and make your suggestion. 

In the meantime I will watch the outcome. 

 

 

Sorry Insider ,but I have to agree with Mr Big Stuff. A main track for CD and lower Nth Island and a main track for the Top, while retaining some of the smaller ones for trial and Sunday racing. In the words of someone dear to me and in the thick of it ,Trentham is fooked, and should be disposed of in place of a central CD track, preferably Foxton.

Hueys  head in the sand comments about people not abandoning there community for a bigger centre and participation etc, flys in the face of commonsense in the present situation.

If nothing is done, my sage reckons in 20 yrs nothing will exist, it will be dead , most of you will be out of work, including himself, because those that prop it up, the owner and punter will have long gone.

[Insider 3,947]

9 minutes ago, globederby12 said:

 

Sorry Insider ,but I have to agree with Mr Big Stuff. A main track for CD and lower Nth Island and a main track for the Top, while retaining some of the smaller ones for trial and Sunday racing. In the words of someone dear to me and in the thick of it ,Trentham is fooked, and should be disposed of in place of a central CD track, preferably Foxton.

Hueys  head in the sand comments about people not abandoning there community for a bigger centre and participation etc, flys in the face of commonsense in the present situation.

If nothing is done, my sage reckons in 20 yrs nothing will exist, it will be dead , most of you will be out of work, including himself, because those that prop it up, the owner and punter will have long gone.

All I am saying is let's test the water if you believe in what you are saying. 

There's need to destroy others unless it works, so let's try out your theory. 

Surely you agree that Auckland is the place to start and they have the money, as Midget said.

 

[Huey 2,037]

10 minutes ago, globederby12 said:

 

Sorry Insider ,but I have to agree with Mr Big Stuff. A main track for CD and lower Nth Island and a main track for the Top, while retaining some of the smaller ones for trial and Sunday racing. In the words of someone dear to me and in the thick of it ,Trentham is fooked, and should be disposed of in place of a central CD track, preferably Foxton.

Hueys  head in the sand comments about people not abandoning there community for a bigger centre and participation etc, flys in the face of commonsense in the present situation.

If nothing is done, my sage reckons in 20 yrs nothing will exist, it will be dead , most of you will be out of work, including himself, because those that prop it up, the owner and punter will have long gone.

Absolute rubbish! You have little knowledge of the contribution that grass roots makes to racing in this country making naive comments like that. If you honestly believe the horse population at these venues would automatically be transferred to your super venues and thus horse numbers and field sizes remain at todays levels then you're delusional.

No one is saying that the grass roots should be the be all and end all of racing in this country all I'm saying is that it should be given its fair share and opportunity to develop , grow and contribute without interference , biased policy and playing favourites etc. 

I am absolutely all for the main centres showcasing racing in this country , they should be , however I can't see the point in them dominating the racing landscape to the detriment of other smaller venues who most certainly have their place in NZ racing.  Why for example are some of these major clubs running several industry days a year? What's the point of that? Some with the rail out in the carpark , what does that say to punters? How does that do anything to instill confidence in our product as a betting product?

 Some of those days spread among other venues would re-invigorate those venues and add life to those clubs , goodness knows they deserve it. 

What youre proposing is what has been on the agenda for years and look where its got us.

 

[Leggy 4,076]

It's interesting to note that the venue exampled, Pakenham, is a Vic country racing venue, but proponents want to do away with country racing venues here to create one like it. Insider is right. ARC might afford to go some way towards something like that but it would probably take the entire NZRB gallops funding distribution to sustain. They would be the only outfit that could come close to trialing it I'd say and it seems a mighty big risk to me, especially given the huge entertainment, sports and hospitality options and competition in Auckland.

[Insider 3,947]

Huey, I couldn't have said it better.  

Sometimes I give up trying to debate with some of them.

A few posts ago I gave one of them a very serious suggestion of how to test their theory, in the largest population of NZ and with a club who had the money to do it.  

But no, instead of accepting the challenge, the response was to set out and destroy the rest of NZ from the grassroots up, as the only way forward. 

I give up!

[Leggy 4,076]

6 minutes ago, Insider said:

A few posts ago I gave one of them a very serious suggestion of how to test their theory, in the largest population of NZ and with a club who had the money to do it.  

The only problem with that is that ARC would not have any where near the money to even build the tracks. They also couldn't replicate a Pakenham at Ellerslie obviously, given it's a 250 hectare training and racing facility, so new land would have to be found. There are some basic practicalities that are missing from this sort of proposal aside from what seems to me an impossible sustainability case given anything like current gallops revenues.

[Trump 2,741]

Auckland "gave" Counties $2m to invest in a training track. What did they get in return? Auckland should look after themselves. They have kept their land (unlike Wellington who sold the car park to stay alive) and invested wisely so that their future as the "MECCA "of NZ Premier Racing and Stakes, remains No 1. They will only get stronger.

[Insider 3,947]

16 minutes ago, Leggy said:

The only problem with that is that ARC would not have any where near the money to even build the tracks. They also couldn't replicate a Pakenham at Ellerslie obviously, given it's a 250 hectare training and racing facility, so new land would have to be found. There are some basic practicalities that are missing from this sort of proposal aside from what seems to me an impossible sustainability case given anything like current gallops revenues.

Leggy, Midget said that Ellerslie have 40 million in the bank and more to come on stream.

A Pakenham is obviously out of the question but what else the dreamer(s) is/are suggesting isn't given that the money is available so I say; if it's the panacea get on with it, rebuild the track to HK standards, do up the stands or whatever it is they are suggesting, don't wait for tomorrow as tomorrow might just be too late!

Personally I think that they are dreaming if they think, that is the answer, but let them have ago I say. 

I am though totally in agreement with you that it wouldn't be sustainable given where galloping currently is in this country and it would be silly to think otherwise, but others seemingly do!

[Insider 3,947]

13 minutes ago, Trump said:

Auckland "gave" Counties $2m to invest in a training track. What did they get in return? 

An improved place for horses to be trained because they sold their training track - Takanini.

[Midget 4,489]

19 minutes ago, Insider said:

An improved place for horses to be trained because they sold their training track - Takanini.

Improved !!

Counties ? name the G1 horses trained there.

Byerley, seriously ? not many good summer horses get trained in deep sand.

The smartest operator there at Takanini was TJ McKee ( with the Stick ) who sold up and bought out at Ardmore on good peat ground, where the #1 Auckland racecourse should be, and would be if people who knew about horses were making the decisions, and since relocating the Stick has trained about 20 G1 wins, and that's more than the rest of Auckland, plus the CD and the South Island combined in the same period.

The proof of the pudding........drain the fucking swamp, sack the suits, sell Trentham, give Awapuni back to the seagulls, ducks and eels, put horse people back in charge of racing FFS before it's too late.....

BTW Liz Ellerslie has 40 million plus in the bank, with a lot more to come, but those who know say they don't want to close down for a year to rebuild the track. I find that a bit odd.

They're in good hands though, and they won't fuck it up or waste it like the WRC has.

[TOM(the other Molloy) 1,774]

4 hours ago, hesi said:

Apologies Tom, should have qualified that by saying a competently staffed, proactive national body.

Why is Racing stuffed, quite simple, it's revenue has not grown enough, it has not competed with the other forms of wagering and entertainment for it's share of each new generation(there's the answer to why 2 mil on the doorstep and very few interested in Racing).  Quite the opposite, it's lost the dominant market share it had 35 years ago, and nothing has been done to arrest that.

I'll just re-quote the Lotto example, every Lotto shop in NZ pays a levy to the Lotteries Commission, and part of that levy goes towards full on branding and promotion on nationwide mainstream media.  As long as Lotto has that set up it will remain strong, as long as they don't employ anybody who has been remotely associated with racing

If Racing had put in place some sort of system like that, then it would not have been in such a state.

But racing is just a collection of clubs, loosely bound by this largely administrative body that has neither a budget, responsibility or income stream for marketing

Via the funding formula they use they are encouraging Clubs to just produce the mundane product I mentioned in another post(ie the industry $7000 days).  There is no financial incentive to strive for anything more than the same old same old.

If I had my way (as a start) I would have the ARC trying to get a deal with Hong Kong and Singapore to commingle(if not use their TAB), turn Ellerslie into a mini Happy Valley/ShaTin with good lights and an inner all weather track (strathayr or whatever) so racing can be year round. Stabling for 400 horses on the inside(sunken) and twice weekly racing at alternate times to when they race(so it might be Monday night and Sunday or whatever). Stream trackwork and trials to the Asians(in the same way as they do with colours worn and saddle cloths with numbers to identify the horse).  Vet bills to be paid by the club and all treatments to be disclosed(which I am sure is the idea behind the Singapore Turf Club paying vet bills).  Have a rule that only jockeys who have ridden 500 or more winners can ride in the races unless they are Apprentices with 50 plus wins the season before or Asian apprentices here learning their trade.  Guest Aussie riders(good ones that is) as well.  Provide a pinnacle show of excellence.  The nightlife would attract Aucklanders as well.  And an emphasis on young horses which might be attractive to the Asian buyers.  Aussie too would embrace it as it developed. 

Apologies Biff I know you hate the Asian method but they have the money plus the love of gambling and we need it.

As far as the rest of NZ racing goes well a bit of variety goes a long way.  Claiming races, races specified for horses that have not win in a year/two years or three years or have not won more than a certain amount in that time so that nags that have got to the top of the handicap and cannot seem to budge from there remain viable to race. Anything to create a bit of interest and extend the racing life of the horse population we have.  Nothing worse than the bloody open class races for good money with five starters or a horse that simply cannot get itself off the top of the handicap.  Revise the dates calendar to get a more logical structure.  Take advantage of the growth areas especially Cromwell with the Queenstown influence(someone mentioned how many there were at the Cromwell Trots the other day - it is bloody criminal to let that second day of galloping at Cromwell lapse).

In my Secretary days I wanted to run claiming races but NZTR(or NZRC as they were then) would not have a bar of it.  Went in their too hard basket but why should it have done?  I would love to have pioneered that.

And I still think there is a possibility for the NZ Clubs to form their own gaming agency based in the Cooks or wherever to cut back on the overheads (like the taxes)

[TOM(the other Molloy) 1,774]

5 hours ago, von Smallhaussen said:

T O M - all the best to your club and I certainly hope you remain for many years. In saying that it is not 'hip to be square' ( if you know what i mean ) for the big wigs of racing to attend your meeting. There is a meeting coming up closer to home for these big wigs - now how do we get our message across to them without causing any harm to owners, trainers, their staff and horses? This is where we have to think quickly and outside the square.

 

I will give an example of what caused a commotion once - many many years ago it was the last day for many of our class at college and we decided to do something that we would all be remembered for ( of course causing no lasting damage ) ..

we decided that we would set a benchmark record for how many people you could cram into a toilet cubicle. We got to 23 ( there were people on shoulders, standing on cistern etc. ) when one of the girls complained of being touched inappropriately  and then Rolly farted and it was a hell of a commotion to get out in a hurry. As it was the pan had been cracked 

The whole school soon heard what had happened.

What can we do to cause a commotion?

 

 

I would not want those wankers attending my meeting anyway VS - I would not be able to swallow my beer(not that I had time for any last week) knowing those halfwits were on course.

Ours is grass roots racing and suited to participants who are either battlers with a true love of the game or the once a year racegoers who tun out for a picnic day at the local meet not grand standers screaming 'look at me'.

 

[tasman man 11 979]

17 minutes ago, Midget said:

Improved !!

Counties ? name the G1 horses trained there.

Byerley, seriously ? not many good summer horses get trained in deep sand.

The smartest operator there at Takanini was TJ McKee ( with the Stick ) who sold up and bought out at Ardmore on good peat ground, where the #1 Auckland racecourse should be, and would be if people who knew about horses were making the decisions, and since relocating the Stick has trained about 20 G1 wins, and that's more than the rest of Auckland, plus the CD and the South Island combined in the same period.

The proof of the pudding........drain the fucking swamp, sack the suits, sell Trentham, give Awapuni back to the seagulls, ducks and eels, put horse people back in charge of racing FFS before it's too late.....

BTW Liz Ellerslie has 40 million plus in the bank, with a lot more to come, but those who know say they don't want to close down for a year to rebuild the track. I find that a bit odd.

They're in good hands though, and they won't fuck it up or waste it like the WRC has.

I pretty much agree with this.........with a decent track at Ellerslie a good product could be on display more often and stimulate bigger betting and particularly more Asian interest in betting here.

Ideally the track could then take its responsibility to race throughout the winter ,as I sense participants will soon get sick of the travel to Ruakaka.

Ellerslie has the money and IMO needs to show some leadership and close for a period to get the track surface right...its facilities are excellent as stated previously.

Leadership too in in the Northern region.

The rest of NZ needs to forget the past......we can't change that .......and concentrate on the future.

Of course the horse population and followers are centred around the Waikato so that area too needs attention and again the 'all weather' track needs action.Do it !

With so many punters preferring Aussie racing and Sports betting now I guess the lower North Island and South Island will need to do the best they can and certainly Canterbury folk will keep the 'sport' [ GPurcells word ] going.Also there will always be room for the one/two meeting Clubs to cash in on the holiday crowds over summer break.

But young kiwi people will not get into racing.....watching horses run around a circle for 2 mins every 45 is no longer in their DNA.

But going to the races 2 - 3 times a year is...Melbourne Cup day ,Dress up on Derby day then a day in jandles over the New Year....thats it !

Only the serious horse person goes on track these days......Trackside TV at home is too easy.

Stakes / Owners......Very soon a significant number of Owners will just walk away...these $7 to $8000 stakes are bullshit ,and even the soon to start $10k minimum changes little.Im often in syndicates of 10 owners and recently Ive had two horses where up to 3 folk just say Im out.But taking away from the high end stakes owners walk away would be swifter !

One of the few statistics in NZTR Annual Report on the decline was the number of horses racing...thats a concern ,while the number of owners was on the increase !....the trend here is now there are many leased horses running around ,some with over 50 "owners". 5 years ago I was involved in nil leased horses now 70% of my involvement is leased [ over 20 horses ,Iveracedninety! ]

GPurcell wasn't as bad as many on here made out ,neither were the presenters .......cafers are way too personal.....Winston said nothing "Our industry should be great again" .....the big problem is Politicians only see the few good days.GPurcell believes he has done his best to save the 'sport'[ his word'] but realises NZTR lacks the authority and power ,and certainly the money to do much.

Last year NZTR met 17 of 20 KPI's ,from Annual Report and his strategic plan clearly explains the plan but as has been prevalent in a vast number of Sports in NZ the regions in NZ have their own views on things ,their strategic plans are not aligned so the national body is powerless.

Even Rugby suffered from this......one sport which has really progressed is Hockey where alignment in the national plan is bringing rewards...funders and sponsors now are insisting on this alignment

Racing needs money for infrastructure....assuming the Govt won't see fit to step up[We are not Australia] then costs need to be cut from the Operational budget...certainly the Wages line with 15 folk over $200 k in NZRB seems excessive .

Thats one obvious place to start Mr Allen !! $10 to $20 mill should be slashed ASAP.