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Whip ban inevitable..???

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Bill Finlay had this to say when California, after reducing allowable whip use in 2015, increased it again last year.

Whipping horses is something that was established in the stone age, when people cared a lot less about animal rights, cock fighting was legal, no one had ever heard of Michael Vick and when racing had a monopoly on legal gambling. Take the whip away from every jockey and you have a level playing field, the only thing a bettor, owner, trainer and even a jockey, should ask for. The main reason whipping is still allowed is because horse racing has an innate defect, an inability to change with the times. Not that we needed any more evidence, but the CHRB foolishly proved that point once again.

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Here's the full article in case anyone's interested in the peculiar and biased way that this happened.

With New CA Whip Rule, Racing Gets It Wrong…Again

 
Friday, May 27, 2016
Keri Belle and jockey Alex Solis, right, win the Grade III $100,000 Megahertz Stakes Monday, January 18, 2016 at Santa Anita Park, Arcadia, CA. BENOIT PHOTO
 

Alex Solis | Benoit Photo

By Bill Finley

It should not have come as any surprise that the California Horse Racing Board voted Thursday to change its rules regarding whipping, allowing jockeys to hit their horses more often. After all, this is horse racing, where it’s always one step forward, one-point-seven steps backward.

This time, even for this dysfunctional, schizophrenic, we-absolutely-must-shoot-ourselves-in-the-foot sport, the decision by the CHRB was particularly harebrained.

You might not have a problem with the new rule, which will allow jockeys to now hit a horse four times in succession in the final sixteenth of a mile instead of three. But you should have a major issue with the voting process and exactly who was allowed to decide the fate of the rules. In a 4-3 decision, the deciding vote was cast by jockey Alex Solis, who is also a member of the CHRB. Solis is a classy guy and no one has ever questioned his integrity. But he is not only a jockey, he is a jockey who was fined three times for breaking the existing rule. If you are a habitual speeder, always driving 80 in a 65-zone, and have been ticketed three times, they’re not going to let you come in and decide to raise the speed limit.

You can argue that Solis, as an active jockey, shouldn’t be on the CHRB in the first place. At the very least, he should have recused himself from this vote because of the very obvious conflict of interest. But that would have taken common sense on someone’s part, and that’s something in short supply in horse racing.

So, with the help of Solis and three other commissioners, the CHRB took something that was progressive and good for the sport and dumped it in the trash can. The obvious reason to tighten, and not loosen, regulations regarding whipping is public perception. Maybe it isn’t such a big deal and maybe these new whips don’t really hurt the horse. This is one of those rare cases where the facts, whatever they may be, don’t matter. People don’t like to see animals abused and a lot of people think hitting a horse with a whip, stick, crop, or whatever you want to call it, is cruel. Most people think dog racing is cruel. And look where dog racing is.

Solis said that one of the times he got fined he probably would not have won the race had he not continued to strike the horse. That may or may not be true, but our society is one made up of rules and regulations and, in this case, they are intended to protect the animal and convey an image to the public that horse racing is not abusive. Lines have to be drawn. Was there a race where Solis finished second and might have won if he struck the horse repeatedly with a cat o’ nine tails to encourage it to run faster? Absurd? Yes. But where do we draw that line?

Responding to Solis’s argument, we found at least one member of the CHRB who gets it.

“That’s what upsets me, a horse is tiring and giving out, and we’re sitting here encouraging them with a whip, and I think that’s cruel,” said Commissioner Steve Beneto. “I’d rather see a jockey lose the race than have somebody abuse the horse.”

Speaking on behalf of the Jockeys’ Guild, its western regional manager, Darrell Haire argued that being allowed to strike a horse four times in succession is not abuse. He might want to bring that up with my 15-year-old daughter. Brought up in a family where both parents work in the racing industry, she has zero interest in the sport and when asked why said it is because she doesn’t like to watch the jockeys beating the horses.

Making this situation even more preposterous is that the existing rule was apparently working just fine. Scott Chaney, a steward at the Southern California tracks, said the new whipping regulation was a “resounding success.”

I understand I am not a jockey and people I respect, like Chris McCarron, have told me there is a need for a jockey to carry a whip. I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it. Whipping should be outright banned, and I’ll even, free of charge, tell the sport how to go about it: Start with experimental whip-less races. Don’t do it with 2-year-olds or in big races. Take some mid-level claiming races, perhaps on the grass, definitely for older horses, and don’t allow the jockeys to carry whips. As an incentive to get trainers and owners to enter, increase the purse by 30%. Let’s see what happens and whether whip-less racing works. You can even allow the jockeys to carry whips and allow them to use them only if they feel the need to because of reasonable safety issues involving high-strung or unmanageable horses.

If these races create any problems whatsoever, I’ll admit I was wrong.

Whipping horses is something that was established in the stone age, when people cared a lot less about animal rights, cock fighting was legal, no one had ever heard of Michael Vick and when racing had a monopoly on legal gambling. Take the whip away from every jockey and you have a level playing field, the only thing a bettor, owner, trainer and even a jockey, should ask for. The main reason whipping is still allowed is because horse racing has an innate defect, an inability to change with the times. Not that we needed any more evidence, but the CHRB foolishly proved that point once again.

 

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Fair Dinkum...Are you guys serious??

I have ridden horses that won races

that would not get out of 3/4 pace if you didn't smack the lazy shit to smarten up..

It's not like a Pig Prodder or any thing.

Others I have ridden are in there own zone

You just get the rhythm going & get them to concentrate & lengthen stride.

Ok. some horses are soft skinned which will flinch at the whip. OK. cool a little smack on the shoulder will keep them focused.(observe Noel Harris )

& there are times when said animal is struck in the Flank & he or she is seen to wince or Veer off.

That is a one time thing & probably by an Apprentice. 

But Let's be serious ???

If you had a horse in a serious race and the Jock was so close to winning but he wasn't allowed one more one more timely exocutioned smack on the rump or shoulder

& it cost you X amount of Stake money?

What say you now??

 

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20 minutes ago, ngatimaru said:

 

I have ridden horses that won races

that would not get out of 3/4 pace if you didn't smack the lazy shit to smarten up..

 

 

Good for you bro! Maybe the "lazy shit" just wanted to be a horse and had no choice in the "buy-in" to racing. I have a mare racing at the moment who chooses to try her heart out and a jockey who knows when she is giving her best-hence no abuse with the whip. Everybody happy, especially the owner who does not want to see his lovely animal flogged, or as you say "get the rhythm flowing". Are you f--king serious? We are better than the primitive bastards in Spain and Asia who still allow bull-fighting and cock-fighting.

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1 hour ago, ngatimaru said:

Fair Dinkum...Are you guys serious??

I have ridden horses that won races

that would not get out of 3/4 pace if you didn't smack the lazy shit to smarten up..

It's not like a Pig Prodder or any thing.

Others I have ridden are in there own zone

You just get the rhythm going & get them to concentrate & lengthen stride.

Ok. some horses are soft skinned which will flinch at the whip. OK. cool a little smack on the shoulder will keep them focused.(observe Noel Harris )

& there are times when said animal is struck in the Flank & he or she is seen to wince or Veer off.

That is a one time thing & probably by an Apprentice. 

But Let's be serious ???

If you had a horse in a serious race and the Jock was so close to winning but he wasn't allowed one more one more timely exocutioned smack on the rump or shoulder

& it cost you X amount of Stake money?

What say you now??

 

I'd say if that's what it takes, I don't want to play, and it's pretty clear that a majority of the younger generation that we need to attract to keep the game alive don't want to either.

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1 hour ago, ngatimaru said:

Fair Dinkum...Are you guys serious??

I have ridden horses that won races

that would not get out of 3/4 pace if you didn't smack the lazy shit to smarten up..

It's not like a Pig Prodder or any thing.

Others I have ridden are in there own zone

You just get the rhythm going & get them to concentrate & lengthen stride.

Ok. some horses are soft skinned which will flinch at the whip. OK. cool a little smack on the shoulder will keep them focused.(observe Noel Harris )

& there are times when said animal is struck in the Flank & he or she is seen to wince or Veer off.

That is a one time thing & probably by an Apprentice. 

But Let's be serious ???

If you had a horse in a serious race and the Jock was so close to winning but he wasn't allowed one more one more timely exocutioned smack on the rump or shoulder

& it cost you X amount of Stake money?

What say you now??

The very reason the issue is on the table could not have been more clearly advanced 

And that is why it will happen, whips will be gone

 

 

1 hour ago, ngatimaru said:

 

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Ngatimaru is so ignorant he's blinded himself. Sooner or later, the whips will be banned. How? Not by racing authorities but by governments. The same as cars are becoming much cleaner burning (catalytic converters etc) and within 10 or more years, a majority of cars made will be electric powered. Not because manufacturers decided it but because Govts legislated it. The Racing Industry will stuff around with this (because they have no balls) until finally, it will be legislated by govt that, whipping a horse in a race of any kind - is illegal. Tick tock tick tock.........

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This is a multi-billion dollar industry. An industry that won't be dictated to by some Animal Rights minority.

Harness whips need to change, they make the whips used in the Cotton Fields of Alabama look nice.

Jockeys whips nowadays are well padded and horses probably react more to the sound than the whip in all fairness.

 

There's 400 chickens cooped up in a 2x2 foot cage, Rhinos getting their horns sawn off, Penguins losing their habitat. So shut up, move on and chuck a few each way on Avdulla or Berry etc and admire them as they change the whip from left to right and get your horse over the line. 

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25 minutes ago, Badger42 said:

This is a multi-billion dollar industry. An industry that won't be dictated to by some Animal Rights minority.

Harness whips need to change, they make the whips used in the Cotton Fields of Alabama look nice.

Jockeys whips nowadays are well padded and horses probably react more to the sound than the whip in all fairness.

 

There's 400 chickens cooped up in a 2x2 foot cage, Rhinos getting their horns sawn off, Penguins losing their habitat. So shut up, move on and chuck a few each way on Avdulla or Berry etc and admire them as they change the whip from left to right and get your horse over the line. 

Well actually Badger the chicken and pig industries are pretty damn good examples of what ignorant and dispassionate members of society thought was ok in terms of animal abuse.....but found out after a groundswell of discontent wasn't in fact ok, and made significant remedial changes driven by societies changing attitudes, and "the market".

Your examples, Berry and Avdulla both seem mighty fine riders to me, both modern in the way the position their body, modern technically that is, and arguably as good as there is going around, but that doesn't give them a mandate to hit a horse excessively no matter the circumstances.

Attitudes change in every sphere of life, and in due course racing will have to change too, and I don't mean by banning whips, I mean by the way they're used and what's acceptable or tolerable for the average person in the street.

Some people are reactive, those with vision are proactive, and it's time NZ racing was led by those with vision.

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8 minutes ago, Midget said:

Well actually Badger the chicken and pig industries are pretty damn good examples of what ignorant and dispassionate members of society thought was ok in terms of animal abuse.....but found out after a groundswell of discontent wasn't in fact ok, and made significant remedial changes driven by societies changing attitudes, and "the market".

Your examples, Berry and Avdulla both seem mighty fine riders to me, both modern in the way the position their body, modern technically that is, and arguably as good as there is going around, but that doesn't give them a mandate to hit a horse excessively no matter the circumstances.

Attitudes change in every sphere of life, and in due course racing will have to change too, and I don't mean by banning whips, I mean by the way they're used and what's acceptable or tolerable for the average person in the street.

Some people are reactive, those with vision are proactive, and it's time NZ racing was led by those with vision.

You can't compare the chicken and pig industries to our one. They were guilty of out and out neglect, whereas horse racing quite the contrary. 

I wasn't saying because they are good riders they should hit their horse more. I'm saying you should marvel at it, because it's textbook, they way horse racing should be. Not Terry Moseley or Basher Thornton where you hit until you can't lift your arm anymore. 

Educate the absolute muppets (apart from a few) that we have riding these horses. 80% of the turkeys on board just sit steer and thrash. It's just laughable and a real bad image too portray. 

You seem to think you have alot of vision Midget. Throw your name in the hat why don't ya

 

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2 hours ago, Trump said:

Ngatimaru is so ignorant he's blinded himself. Sooner or later, the whips will be banned. How? Not by racing authorities but by governments. The same as cars are becoming much cleaner burning (catalytic converters etc) and within 10 or more years, a majority of cars made will be electric powered. Not because manufacturers decided it but because Govts legislated it. The Racing Industry will stuff around with this (because they have no balls) until finally, it will be legislated by govt that, whipping a horse in a race of any kind - is illegal. Tick tock tick tock.........

Electric cars...?? Not likely Trumpy. The boys won't give up the V8 that easy mate...you won't get me out of the X5 anytime soon.....:D

Apart from that, the investment to make those things work Nationwide would be huge, we have more important issues.

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Hands and heels have always been in fashion Rosie, but there are still reasons for riders to be able to use the current soft padded whips but not to thrash a horse with an eggbeater action behind the saddle as one example.

The apprentices in the North are receiving excellent tutelage under the watchful eyes of Noel Harris as educates them to use balance and to push forward with their hands as well as guidance on proper use of the whip, on the shoulder etc. NGH was a kind rider and that type of riding he is instilling into these apprentices and if they listen you won't see horses being bashed.  

    

 

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51 minutes ago, Badger42 said:

You can't compare the chicken and pig industries to our one. They were guilty of out and out neglect, whereas horse racing quite the contrary. 

I wasn't saying because they are good riders they should hit their horse more. I'm saying you should marvel at it, because it's textbook, they way horse racing should be. Not Terry Moseley or Basher Thornton where you hit until you can't lift your arm anymore. 

Educate the absolute muppets (apart from a few) that we have riding these horses. 80% of the turkeys on board just sit steer and thrash. It's just laughable and a real bad image too portray. 

You seem to think you have alot of vision Midget. Throw your name in the hat why don't ya

 

I think I understand animal welfare ok thanks.

How about you stop putting the knife into some very good people too, you might disagree with their style but that doesn't warrant or justify such attacks on hard working individuals who've made very valuable contributions to the fabric of NZ racing.

They're not "turkeys on board" either, so let's agree you won't start collective jockey bashing.

You might also want to have a think about your denial of "out and out neglect" of horses in NZ racing.

Just take the time to consider what certain clubs and NZTR think is ok to race on, that's out and out neglect.

Then spare a thought for the last nine jockeys to die doing what they love in NZ, eight of whom were in the South Island, that's not coincidence, that's neglect too.

I note you're new here, but you appear reasonably intelligent, might I suggest you moderate your strident style and ease your way into this site gently, and avoid putting knives into the backs of those who "put on the show".

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Midget said:

I think I understand animal welfare ok thanks.

How about you stop putting the knife into some very good people too, you might disagree with their style but that doesn't warrant or justify such attacks on hard working individuals who've made very valuable contributions to the fabric of NZ racing.

They're not "turkeys on board" either, so let's agree you won't start collective jockey bashing.

You might also want to have a think about your denial of "out and out neglect" of horses in NZ racing.

Just take the time to consider what certain clubs and NZTR think is ok to race on, that's out and out neglect.

Then spare a thought for the last nine jockeys to die doing what they love in NZ, eight of whom were in the South Island, that's not coincidence, that's neglect too.

I note you're new here, but you appear reasonably intelligent, might I suggest you moderate your strident style and ease your way into this site gently, and avoid putting knives into the backs of those who "put on the show".

 

 

I never said they aren't hard working, nor did I say they aren't good people. I was just saying, they aren't very good. Fact.

I'm not sure I agree that 8 deaths in the South Island is neglect. It's absolutely tragic. However I think it has alot to do with the capabilities of the rider. Hong Kong? Sydney? Melbourne? How often do you see serious race falls there....far less than ya do in the South Island. 

You're right in saying I am new here. I used to just read it for the news and a bit of opinion. But some people nowadays are a wee bit delusional and few harsh truths need said. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Badger42 said:

I never said they aren't hard working, nor did I say they aren't good people. I was just saying, they aren't very good. Fact.

I'm not sure I agree that 8 deaths in the South Island is neglect. It's absolutely tragic. However I think it has alot to do with the capabilities of the rider. Hong Kong? Sydney? Melbourne? How often do you see serious race falls there....far less than ya do in the South Island. 

You're right in saying I am new here. I used to just read it for the news and a bit of opinion. But some people nowadays are a wee bit delusional and few harsh truths need said. 

 

It is neglect actually, even though it's often attributed to things like "clipping heels", that's just sanitising the harsh realities to make it more palatable so the fat useless bastards in suits can scoff another gin, and still sleep at night knowing another family lost their Mum or Dad doing the thing they love, in sub standard conditions.

Name another sport, even Formula 1, that loses so many lives or leaves participants incapacitated forever ?

I note world rugby is hysterically trying to resolve their concussion related issues ( and that's to be applauded ) but God forbid if anyone who cares ever looks at the racing game in this country, especially in the South.

Anyway off you go, you're clearly an expert, so do what you do best, well what you think you're good at.

I'm betting you'll be persona non grata and you'll be gone in a week if you keep your shitty style up though.

When you reply tell us all about your riding career, it must have been fabulous and we'd all like to know, besides it'll give you huge credibility.

 

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It's a high risk profession. Below published two years ago.

The Australian Jockeys Association (AJA) has found that since the 1840s, 873 riders have died in race falls throughout Australia. Professional race riding has been determined as one of the most dangerous occupations on land. In 2009, the Menzies Institute in Tasmania conducted a study that concluded only offshore fishing was more dangerous, and while other studies place truck driving, manufacturing, and mining work at the top of the most dangerous occupations, race riding is rarely far behind.

The Menzies Institute is respected for its world-class research, and its study, published in the Medical Journal of Australia, was compiled from stewards’ reports over a four-year span. It found that licensed jockeys fell once in every 240 rides. Of these falls, almost a third caused injury, and one in 620 falls resulted in death. To put these figures into perspective, last season’s overall Australian premiership-winning jockey Brad Rawiller had 1,055 starts. On the Menzies averages, there was a 25-percent likelihood that he would fall earning his living throughout that year.

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That's your problem, you're so hellbent on putting on the blame on the men in suits that you don't see the problem. In the South Island the problem is the jockeys. I've talked to 4 S.I jockeys who said it's like riding with cowboys out there and it's got to the point where they are genuinely fearing for their own safety. Whether the onus is on the men in suits to sort out the apprentice school system I'm not sure.

Ice Hockey, NFL, Rodeo, Rugby, League, Skiing, anything in the X-Games, anything in terms of fighting there are plenty. There are also plenty of people who go to work (that isn't a sport) each day and don't come home. It's just the reality of it. All I'm saying is, if we can improve this by educating jockeys further then maybe tragedies like this can be prevented for the most part.

 

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39 minutes ago, Badger42 said:

That's your problem, you're so hellbent on putting on the blame on the men in suits that you don't see the problem. In the South Island the problem is the jockeys. I've talked to 4 S.I jockeys who said it's like riding with cowboys out there and it's got to the point where they are genuinely fearing for their own safety. Whether the onus is on the men in suits to sort out the apprentice school system I'm not sure.

Ice Hockey, NFL, Rodeo, Rugby, League, Skiing, anything in the X-Games, anything in terms of fighting there are plenty. There are also plenty of people who go to work (that isn't a sport) each day and don't come home. It's just the reality of it. All I'm saying is, if we can improve this by educating jockeys further then maybe tragedies like this can be prevented for the most part.

 

You talk shit.

Why so many fatalities in the SI then, why not the NI, why do so many die on the small country tracks ?

It's neglect at every level, the tracks, the management, the methods, the accountability, the travel.....you're just coming across as a jockey basher who seems to be a self ordained authority because you "spoke to a few jocks".

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2 minutes ago, Midget said:

You talk shit.

Why so many fatalities in the SI then, why not the NI, why do so many die on the small country tracks ?

It's neglect at every level, the tracks, the management, the methods, the accountability, the travel.....you're just coming across as a jockey basher who seems to be a self ordained authority because you "spoke to a few jocks".

No he comes across as a shit stirrer in my opinion...but for sure he will argue that to..he was moderated as one person and tried to join as the new identity he has morphed into, then he gives it to me for banning him.... 

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it will be interesting to see what happens on the track when the tree hugging, limp wristed, rainbow shirt wearing brigade Nancy boys get their way ,and they probably will....... imagine the rorts that will go on then, no whip :o, you MUST be joking !!

two up looks even more appealing.:blink:

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