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Matthew Williamson- Excess Whip Charge Dropped?

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I am not in favour of the new 10 whip hits in the last 400 metres rule that was brought in this week.

However, already seems a bit hard to follow!

Matthew Williamson was charged with a breach of the rule in Race 7 at Oamaru but was found not guilty!

If you watch the replay it clearly shows that Matthew certainly uses the whip several times more in the last 200 metres than the 10 you are allowed to under the new rule!

So just wondering what the Stipes or JCA decision was based on.

Matthew may have hit the dust sheet a few times but I was under the understanding that hitting the dust sheet with the whip is classed as a hit, or has this now been amended?

Appreciate your thoughts here?

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brodie said:

I am not in favour of the new 10 whip hits in the last 400 metres rule that was brought in this week.

However, already seems a bit hard to follow!

Matthew Williamson was charged with a breach of the rule in Race 7 at Oamaru but was found not guilty!

If you watch the replay it clearly shows that Matthew certainly uses the whip several times more in the last 200 metres than the 10 you are allowed to under the new rule!

So just wondering what the Stipes or JCA decision was based on.

Matthew may have hit the dust sheet a few times but I was under the understanding that hitting the dust sheet with the whip is classed as a hit, or has this now been amended?

Appreciate your thoughts here?

 

 

 

 

 

I also note that today at Methven Jonny Cox and Natalie Rasmussen both got charged for excess use of the whip with Jonny Cox getting one day suspension and a small fine and Natalie got a $400 fine.

You would wonder how they decide who gets fined and who gets suspensions etc?

The other thing is that Natalie's horse would not have run a place if she hadn't cheated the rules and therefore that horse should be disqualified as the driver has flouted the rules.

How can Punters have any confidence in races when this anomaly is allowed.

If this stupid rule is in, then they need to suspend licenses and disqualify horses otherwise it is going to be a circus!!!!!!

 

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13 minutes ago, Brodie said:

I also note that today at Methven Jonny Cox and Natalie Rasmussen both got charged for excess use of the whip with Jonny Cox getting one day suspension and a small fine and Natalie got a $400 fine.

You would wonder how they decide who gets fined and who gets suspensions etc?

The other thing is that Natalie's horse would not have run a place if she hadn't cheated the rules and therefore that horse should be disqualified as the driver has flouted the rules.

How can Punters have any confidence in races when this anomaly is allowed.

If this stupid rule is in, then they need to suspend licenses and disqualify horses otherwise it is going to be a circus!!!!!!

 

It was clarified on the box seat by the stipes that no horse will be relegated from excessive use of the whip under the new rules which has not changed from the old rule . Only the drivers need to be wary of the consequences of the new rule. 

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12 minutes ago, 2Piper said:

It was clarified on the box seat by the stipes that no horse will be relegated from excessive use of the whip under the new rules which has not changed from the old rule . Only the drivers need to be wary of the consequences of the new rule. 

I heard what Nick Ydgren said on Trackside!

So it is all about collect fines then?

If the drivers break the rules and give the horse an advantage then shouldn't that horse be disqualified?

Race 3 at Methven today, I would say Terry Chmiel on One Big Fellah hits the horse more than 10 times in the straight and then thinks shit I better restrain from hitting as I have had my quota!

What happens, the horse just gets beaten, if he had continued with the whip another couple of times he would have won for sure!

This is such a stupid rule brought in without the approval of a consensus from the drivers and already there have been problems.

Thing is when a driver is more serious to win, then they are going to break the rule.

With the rule now only 10 hits they will make the 10 hits count more, by whacking them harder than what they would have previously.

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8 minutes ago, Shad said:

I thought she may have got questioned why see never went earlier on the favourite, never seemed to put it in the race to very late.

I totally agree Shad.

I was going to comment about that too but thought I better not hammer the Stipes too much!

She was held up by a horse going nowhere, but if she had Gone she probably would have won.

But they aren't going to question the integrity of The AllStars are they!

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7 hours ago, Brodie said:

I totally agree Shad.

I was going to comment about that too but thought I better not hammer the Stipes too much!

She was held up by a horse going nowhere, but if she had Gone she probably would have won.

But they aren't going to question the integrity of The AllStars are they!

True brodie, how dare we even think that thought, i have always said who really runs racing? sum get shown more leniency than others. We need a level playing field across the judiciary board, or am i being too tough.

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To Brodie

Another issue from you that we are going to hear after every harness meeting till you kick the bucket.Do you have a brain I do not think so the solution for you ring up the Racing Integrity Unit on 0800748123(It is a free phone) and ask them why did you do this or not do this and report to us without coming on this site and going on and on and on for what ring them up and get the real answers.Or else apply to become a stipe then we would only have possibly one driver to drive at a harness meeting because they would all be under suspension if you were in charge.

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46 minutes ago, Fiery Falcon said:

To Brodie

Another issue from you that we are going to hear after every harness meeting till you kick the bucket.Do you have a brain I do not think so the solution for you ring up the Racing Integrity Unit on 0800748123(It is a free phone) and ask them why did you do this or not do this and report to us without coming on this site and going on and on and on for what ring them up and get the real answers.Or else apply to become a stipe then we would only have possibly one driver to drive at a harness meeting because they would all be under suspension if you were in charge.

Welcome back Fiery.

Firstly I did not bring the stupid rule in and I do believe that the majority of drivers are not in favour of it either, unless you know differently?

Obviously you have something to do with the RIU so please explain the situation on here!

Why would I need to apply to be a Stipe as it would involve a lot of work and fortunately don't need to do that!

However, I do know that I would do a far better job than is currently happening!!!

Dont see how every driver would be suspended as I would work to get the stupid rule overturned and introduce a more reasonable rule.

await your reasoned response.

 

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19 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

 Too late for that Brodie!

You nailed them all to a cross awhile back.

Happy, I thought I had been more than reasonable to them.

As you know "The Brodster" tells it the way it is, and is always on the money!

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19 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

So Geoff Martin's suspension was not warranted?

The Amateurs and the Juniors are the easy prey and Geoff certainly comes under the first banner Happy!

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22 minutes ago, eljay said:

John Cox used whip 11 times - looks like there was a witch hunt here!

Sorry Eljay, but it was a few more than 10 whip hits in the last 200 metres probably 14.

Personally don't think it was excessive for a driver looking to win but under this glorious new rule it is!

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2 hours ago, eljay said:

Thats what JCA report says.

Sorry Eljay, you said Jonny  Cox used the whip 11 times, but it was more than that, more like 14,

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13 hours ago, Brodie said:

Sorry Eljay, you said Jonny  Cox used the whip 11 times, but it was more than that, more like 14,

Read:

METHVEN TC 4 DECEMBER 2016 - R 9 - CHAIR, MR R MCKENZIE

Created on 06 December 2016

<< Prev
Next >>
 
Rules:
869(2)(a)
Committee:
RMcKenzie (chair) 
DAnderson 
 
Name(s):
Mr JW Cox - Licensed Open Horseman
Informant
Mr SW Wallis - Stipendiary Steward
Information Number
A8424
Plea:
Admitted
Charge:
Excessive Use of Whip
Evidence:

Following the running of Race 9, Hanley Formula Geraldine/Methven Graduation Pace, an information was filed by Stipendiary Steward, Mr S W Wallis, against Licensed Open Driver, Mr J W Cox, alleging a breach of Rule 869 (2) (a) in that, as the driver of MYIDEALSON in the race, he “used his whip excessively over the concluding stages”.

Mr Cox had signed the Statement by the Respondent on the Information form indicating that he admitted the breach and had endorsed on the form that he did not wish to be present at the hearing of the information. Mr Wallis confirmed to the Committee that Mr Cox did not wish to be present.

Rule 869 provides as follows:
(2) No horseman shall during any race:-
     (a) use his whip in an unnecessary, excessive or improper manner.

The amendment to the Use of the Whip Guidelines effective from 1 December 2016 provides that:
The whip shall not be used more than 10 times in the last 400m of a race, otherwise this will be deemed excessive pursuant to these Guidelines.

Mr Wallis showed a video replay of the final 300-400 metres of the race. He pointed out Mr Cox, driving MYIDEALSON which was trailing the leader as the field entered the final straight. Mr Cox then improved to the inside of the leader and began striking his horse with the whip, Mr Wallis said. Stewards counted Mr Cox using his whip 11 times in the final 400 metres, he said.

Decision:

Mr Cox having admitted the charge, the charge was found proved.

Submission For Penalty:

Mr Wallis described Mr Cox as “a busy driver”. Last season he had a total of 550 drives and in the current season, to date, has had 116 drives. There are no previous breaches of the whip Rule on his record over the last 12 months, Mr Wallis said.

Mr Wallis submitted that credit should be given for that good record and Mr Cox’s admission of the charge. Mr Wallis told the Committee that Stewards would be asking for a fine of $300 but added that Mr Cox had asked if the Committee would consider a mix of a 1-day suspension and a fine. Mr Wallis said that the Stewards would be happy with the proposed penalty.

Mr Wallis was questioned by the Committee, firstly, as to how many drives a 1-day suspension would be likely to involve for Mr Cox and, secondly, whether the proposed suspension would be a genuine one. Mr Wallis said that Mr Cox would average 3 drives per meeting. He added that Stewards believed that Mr Cox would be genuinely forgoing 3 drives at the meeting of NZ Metropolitan TC on 8 December were he to be suspended for that meeting.

Reasons For Penalty:

In arriving at penalty, the Committee took the starting point of a $500 fine as suggested in the Penalty Guide. There were no aggravating factors but mitigating factors were Mr Cox’s good record and his admission of the breach. We assessed the appropriate discount for those mitigating factors at $200.

The Committee was prepared to regard favourably Mr Cox’s preference for a combined penalty. The Penalty Guide provides that a Judicial Committee is to “equate 1 drive with a fine of $50”. On that basis, the 1-day suspension would equate, in Mr Cox’s case, to $150. That, plus a fine of $150, would therefore be equivalent to a fine of $300 which the Committee considers to be appropriate. 

Penalty:

Mr Cox’s Open Horseman’s Licence is suspended from after the close of racing up to and including 8th December 2016. This is a suspension for one day – the meeting of NZ Metropolitan TC at Addington on 8th December 2016. In addition, Mr Cox is fined the sum of $150.

I wasn't there Brodie, but he was charged for 11 (eleven) - may be he used it 111 times - I only stating what in the (above) report

 

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1 minute ago, eljay said:

Read:

METHVEN TC 4 DECEMBER 2016 - R 9 - CHAIR, MR R MCKENZIE

Created on 06 December 2016

<< Prev
Next >>
 
Rules:
869(2)(a)
Committee:
RMcKenzie (chair) 
DAnderson 
 
Name(s):
Mr JW Cox - Licensed Open Horseman
Informant
Mr SW Wallis - Stipendiary Steward
Information Number
A8424
Plea:
Admitted
Charge:
Excessive Use of Whip
Evidence:

Following the running of Race 9, Hanley Formula Geraldine/Methven Graduation Pace, an information was filed by Stipendiary Steward, Mr S W Wallis, against Licensed Open Driver, Mr J W Cox, alleging a breach of Rule 869 (2) (a) in that, as the driver of MYIDEALSON in the race, he “used his whip excessively over the concluding stages”.

Mr Cox had signed the Statement by the Respondent on the Information form indicating that he admitted the breach and had endorsed on the form that he did not wish to be present at the hearing of the information. Mr Wallis confirmed to the Committee that Mr Cox did not wish to be present.

Rule 869 provides as follows:
(2) No horseman shall during any race:-
     (a) use his whip in an unnecessary, excessive or improper manner.

The amendment to the Use of the Whip Guidelines effective from 1 December 2016 provides that:
The whip shall not be used more than 10 times in the last 400m of a race, otherwise this will be deemed excessive pursuant to these Guidelines.

Mr Wallis showed a video replay of the final 300-400 metres of the race. He pointed out Mr Cox, driving MYIDEALSON which was trailing the leader as the field entered the final straight. Mr Cox then improved to the inside of the leader and began striking his horse with the whip, Mr Wallis said. Stewards counted Mr Cox using his whip 11 times in the final 400 metres, he said.

Decision:

Mr Cox having admitted the charge, the charge was found proved.

Submission For Penalty:

Mr Wallis described Mr Cox as “a busy driver”. Last season he had a total of 550 drives and in the current season, to date, has had 116 drives. There are no previous breaches of the whip Rule on his record over the last 12 months, Mr Wallis said.

Mr Wallis submitted that credit should be given for that good record and Mr Cox’s admission of the charge. Mr Wallis told the Committee that Stewards would be asking for a fine of $300 but added that Mr Cox had asked if the Committee would consider a mix of a 1-day suspension and a fine. Mr Wallis said that the Stewards would be happy with the proposed penalty.

Mr Wallis was questioned by the Committee, firstly, as to how many drives a 1-day suspension would be likely to involve for Mr Cox and, secondly, whether the proposed suspension would be a genuine one. Mr Wallis said that Mr Cox would average 3 drives per meeting. He added that Stewards believed that Mr Cox would be genuinely forgoing 3 drives at the meeting of NZ Metropolitan TC on 8 December were he to be suspended for that meeting.

Reasons For Penalty:

In arriving at penalty, the Committee took the starting point of a $500 fine as suggested in the Penalty Guide. There were no aggravating factors but mitigating factors were Mr Cox’s good record and his admission of the breach. We assessed the appropriate discount for those mitigating factors at $200.

The Committee was prepared to regard favourably Mr Cox’s preference for a combined penalty. The Penalty Guide provides that a Judicial Committee is to “equate 1 drive with a fine of $50”. On that basis, the 1-day suspension would equate, in Mr Cox’s case, to $150. That, plus a fine of $150, would therefore be equivalent to a fine of $300 which the Committee considers to be appropriate. 

Penalty:

Mr Cox’s Open Horseman’s Licence is suspended from after the close of racing up to and including 8th December 2016. This is a suspension for one day – the meeting of NZ Metropolitan TC at Addington on 8th December 2016. In addition, Mr Cox is fined the sum of $150.

I wasn't there Brodie, but he was charged for 11 (eleven) - may be he used it 111 times - I only stating what in the (above) report

 

Apologies Eljay I didn't read the who,e thing just the abbreviated.

God help us our Stipes can't even COUNT now, so what chance have we got with them.

Watch the replay and how on earth can Mr Wallis only see that Jonny Cox only used the whip only 11 times, as it is definitely more than that!

We are in deep trouble with this stupid rule that is not supported by many at all.

Mark Jones wrote an excellent article in the Harness Express on Tuesday stating his opinion and most other Drivers opinion on this ridiculous rule!

Harness N.Z. Should hand their heads in shame for allowing the R.I.U. For approving another absolutely ridiculous rule without a consensus from the drivers.

They continue to do things that are to the detriment of the harness industry, but do they care?

Not sure by the way they go about things!

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