rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 11 hours ago, Phantom said: Oh trust me he would be by far the most knowledgeable form analyst in New Zealand, Please don't leave us hanging. What IS the oldest race in NZ then? The Canterbury Gold Cup was first run in 1855 and won by Tamerlane. The CJC NZ Derby was first run in 1860 won by Ada (now NZ Derby) The Hawkes Bay Cup was first run in 1860 won by Hurricane. The NZ Cup was first run in 1867 won by Magenta The Easter Handicap was first run in 1874 as was the Wellington Cup and Dunedin Gold Cup. Wanganui is the oldest club that is still currently racing. We're Doomed 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom 494 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 Ok thanks, he said he meant to say the oldest Group One race still running. Which it is... er was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, Phantom said: Ok thanks, he said he meant to say the oldest Group One race still running. Which it is... er was. The NZ Derby is a G1 race. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom 494 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 Ok, i thought it was the Great Northern Derby which was first run at Ellerslie in 1875. I stand corrected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 The NZ Derby is an amalgamation of two races, the New Zealand Derby, run since 1860 at Riccarton and the Great Northern Derby, run since 1875 at Ellerslie. The races were combined in 1975. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,007 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, rdytdy said: The NZ Cup was first run in 1867 won by Magenta Think you missed a couple of years there Ted, at least according to Wiki: 1870 – Knottingley (Dec) 1870 – Knottingley (Jan) 1869 – Mainsail 1868 – Flying Jib 1867 – Magenta 1866 – Nourmahal 1865 – Rob Roy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 Cheers leggy I was going from Thoroughbred Heritage: CJC New Zealand Cup 1867 - Present 2 miles (3200 meters) handicap race for three-year-olds and upwards at Riccarton Racecourse, Christchurch, New Zealand Year Horse Statistics Sire - Dam - Dam's Sire Family No. 1867 Magenta (NZ) ch.g. 1863 Malton (GB) - Ada (NZ) by St. Aubyn (GB) NSB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,007 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 One of them is obviously wrong Ted! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Cup elbow 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver Dan 187 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 I've always wanted to ask Butch Castles as to why the Easter Handicap was removed from Easter - seriously, it beggars belief. We all know that the Xmas carnival at Ellerslie is now a failure - similar with the Derby. Many that I know mute trackside because of the complete inane, stuttering, "jumping from the trees" nonsense that is dished up. The piece from The Phantom maybe written in a rather colourful way but can be backed up by facts - we need more of this! Cornelius, rumpole and chevy86 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... 226 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 There can be no real surprise that these once famous G1 races are being or have been downgraded especially the Handicaps as they have slowly been turned into SW&P. In recent years these following G1 Handicaps have been turned into SW&P races (Easter Handicap/Auckland Cup/Thorndon Mile/Railway Handicap/Telegraph Handicap) this is a last resort by the clubs to try and retain their G1 status. In the last season the Easter Handicap (SW&P)/Auckland Cup/Telegraph Handicap the quinella was run by horses that had not previously won a Group race!, In the Railway Ryan Mark had previously won a G3 sprint and Allez Eagle had also previously won a G3 sprint. In the Thorndon Mile, Kawi had previously won 2 G1's and Stolen Dance had won G2 and G3 Mile races The point I am looking to get across is that changing these Handicaps to Set Weights and Penalty races are not tending to get better fields and using the last season as an example the better performed horses are not featuring, I would be expecting more downgrades of these races in the future and currently the Auckland Cup is still on a 2nd warning and the Telegraph's 1st warning is maintained Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius 94 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 Lets be honest, theres only a few worthy Group One races now. Bruce L, you beat me to it. " There can be no real surprise that these once famous G1 races are being or have been downgraded especially the Handicaps as they have slowly been turned into SW&P. In recent years these following G1 Handicaps have been turned into SW&P races (Easter Handicap/Auckland Cup/Thorndon Mile/Railway Handicap/Telegraph Handicap) this is a last resort by the clubs to try and retain their G1 status." Set weights and penalties have destroyed these races reputations. Quote from Club Chairman, Paul Kenny to give the Auckland Cup and Easter the best opportunity to retain their Group 1 status (Oct, 2015). ‘’After recent dialogue with the Pattern Committee, it is clear that both races are on the verge of being downgraded to Group 2. Both races are extremely important to the Auckland Racing Club and therefore it is critical that the Club is proactive in trying to secure their future as Group 1 races. We believe that a shift to Set Weight and Penalties is the best solution in trying to achieve our aim.’’ Club Chairman, Paul Kenny 2016 NEW ZEALAND PATTERN COMMITTEE REVIEW 21 September 2016 "The race rating is determined by the average peak ranking of the first four placegetters. The recommended benchmark rating for a Group I race is 115, with the tolerance threshold 110." "the NZPC has requested that NZTR establish an expert review of the WTRR ratings assigned to NZ horses and races at three years and below." Who would that be? Another Aussie? Does Xtravagent deserve to get 118 in the world ratings? Or are NZTR handicappers bumping up our horses ratings to keep our Group One races? Stocks are low in Group material (4yo+) in this country. We have too many Group One races now, for the quality of horses in this country now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,007 Report post Posted September 21, 2016 Yes, and the Pattern Committee noted that the reduction in number of races is now pushing the percentage of Pattern races towards an unsustainable number, and that despite the fact that they lost $1m last season because the total number exceeded budgeted levels. They are persisting with that race number reduction strategy which will certainly mean some pattern races will have to go and/or be downgraded to re-align the percentages. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Heap 481 Report post Posted September 22, 2016 It is a problem that the old traditional Cup races, can't retain their Group 1 or 2 status (the Auckland Cup will soon fall as well). These are the races that have tradition, a long list of great winners and the races that Clubs build their big race days around. Now we find that both the Wellington Cup and an obscure race for fillies and mares at Rotorua have the same Group rating. On the face of it (tradition, past winners, crowd size) this doesn't seem right, but if you look at the calibre of horse competing and it is correct. So what to do? Clubs should stick to their traditional race date for the big Cups. They should maintain the Cup's prize money at a high (NZ high) level. Stick with set weights and penalties so those old beloved stayers can return year after year and get a fair crack. (Everyone loves the old fella coming back and trying to make it three in a row). Have a very strong support program, inc if at all poss, a Group One race. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midget 4,489 Report post Posted September 22, 2016 Clearly we need more involvement from Petone, as we're breeding inferior stayers and arguably using the wrong stallions. I think the NZTR board, or maybe just a non descript employee should start telling the big studs which mare to mate with which stallion, which mares to cull, and most importantly which stallion the stud should buy, and stand. It's time the boot was put firmly on the other foot, and I'm absolutely sure the NZTR crowd can do just as good a job of running the breeding industry as the breeders have historically done running the racing industry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phar Lap Fan 103 Report post Posted September 23, 2016 On 9/21/2016 at 5:14 PM, rdytdy said: The NZPC considered it would be deeply undesirable to have no Group I race at 2400m or longer for older horses in New Zealand but noted that regardless of the review outcomes, a significant lift in the race rating will be required in the season ahead Good point as the major racing countries have such an event, at w.f.a., as a feature race. Upgrading the Trentham Stakes could be a project but running handicaps/set weights+penalties is unlikely to improve our racing standard. Last time that I looked, there was a preponderance of 1,600 m., handicap races in the Group 1 schedule. That's not where our traditional strength was. Also, why two 2,000 m. Gr. 1 races at Ellerslie? We don't have a Gr. 1 sprint at 1,200 metres but the committee seems set on maintaining the handicap bias, which encourages mediocrity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timon 107 Report post Posted September 23, 2016 This is all so depressing ... but sadly true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,695 Report post Posted September 23, 2016 47 minutes ago, Timon said: This is all so depressing ... but sadly true And Timon they all whine and whinge and then do sweet FA about it....weak as. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby 160 Report post Posted September 23, 2016 As long as there are poor stakes across the board in NZ the good horses that used to grace the tracks will all be going to Oz or sold overseas. This lays at the feet of those running the show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phar Lap Fan 103 Report post Posted September 23, 2016 18 hours ago, Phar Lap Fan said: We don't have a Gr. 1 sprint at 1,200 metres but the committee seems set on maintaining the handicap bias, which encourages mediocrity. Mean to say at w.f.a., which is the best measure of the best horses. Better races to attract better horses to stay here, by reducing the number of races so increasing the stakes? Which club/s will voluntarily lose race days for the greater good of the industry? Betting public does not justify 345 race meetings p.a. (2014). Would 2 meetings at 2 venues per week be viable for those who work in racing? More in summer and fewer in winter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpole 483 Report post Posted September 24, 2016 On 22/09/2016 at 10:30 AM, Diver Dan said: I've always wanted to ask Butch Castles as to why the Easter Handicap was removed from Easter - seriously, it beggars belief. We all know that the Xmas carnival at Ellerslie is now a failure - similar with the Derby. Many that I know mute trackside because of the complete inane, stuttering, "jumping from the trees" nonsense that is dished up. The piece from The Phantom maybe written in a rather colourful way but can be backed up by facts - we need more of this! The Easter was completely stuffed by people at the Auckland Racing Club who should have known better...idiots all of them the Aukland Cup has been stuffed since they shitted the race to March geez there have been some very average winners Sangster excluded The race should be a group 3 as for changing dates they changed the Great Northern steeples and hurdles..they cant even do $200,000 on course on steeples day pathetic Diver Dan and chevy86 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted September 24, 2016 On 9/24/2016 at 9:33 AM, Phar Lap Fan said: Better races to attract better horses to stay here, by reducing the number of races so increasing the stakes? Which club/s will voluntarily lose race days for the greater good of the industry? Betting public does not justify 345 race meetings p.a. (2014). Would 2 meetings at 2 venues per week be viable for those who work in racing? More in summer and fewer in winter. No Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...