Powerful Female Lines - Thoughts on this one?

[Tesio 14]

Im new to the breeding industry, but have found a passion for breeding and linebreeding...still very new and learning, so go easy on me  I recently purchase a mare due to her powerful female line, have named her over looked (registered with NZ racing now) She has Cosmah, Crimson Saint and Lalun in her tailine. Someone i respect very highly recommend i send her to Onceuponatime ...which i have for this season. I'm wondering from you breeding buffs out there what your thoughts are of this breeding and if you know of any other horses with this similar pattern (Crimson Saint 5f, 4m and Cosmah 5m,5f). If you run the pattern you will also see Almahmoud 7f, 6f, 7f, 7f, 7f, 6f.  

[gubellini 4,004]

Rhodesy best of luck with your breeding venture! I have looked at the breeding of your mare Over Looked. She is a mare from a family that needs upgrading. Her sire BUFFALO MAN won only at Group 3 level and has proved to be a very mediocre sire. Her dam Lyrical Look was unplaced but has left 4 winners from 7 starters. Going to Onceuponatime is not upgrading her family. He was by Van Nistelrooy who only won up to Group 2 level. His sire record was only mediocre. My suggestion would be to put her to Redwood next season. Lyrical Look left Magus winner of two. She was by High Chaparral the sire of Redwood. The best feature of your mare is that Lyrical Look is by Royal Academy a son of the hugely successful sire Nijinsky. Note that twice Cox Plate winner So You Think is by High Chaparral out of a Tights mare. Tights was by Nijinsky hence my suggestion of Redwood.

[gubellini 4,004]

Rhodesy your mare has a 4yo full brother called Sgfifty. I saw him at the 2014 Ready to Run Sale. He was tallish and slab sided. He had four unplaced trials in N.Z. then was sold to Singapore. I am not sure if he has raced there but he hasn't won or been placed.

[gubellini 4,004]

Rhodesy Sgfifty has had 12 starts in Singapore and been unplaced in all 12. Stakes $675. Last ran over 1700m on 12/8/16 running 12/12. 

[Tesio 14]

Hi Gubellini, thanks for your comments, all advice for a newbie like me is grateful.  Yep I new about Sgfifty's race record, not much happening with him!!! What I'm trying to achieve with this mating, is simply to strengthen the three female bloodlines of Cosmah -1974 Kentucky Broodmare of the year - (dam of Tosmah, 23 wins and Hall of fame horse  and also dam of champion stallion Halo)  , Almahmoud (out and out broodmare legend) and Crimson Saint (dam of Royal Academy). This mating will achieve this.......will need to keep doing it until I achieve one or two healthy fillies who will be earmarked for future breeding stock. I'm not trying to achieve a champion race horse now, simply focusing on the female strengths to upgrade the progeny broodmare potential. So I guess I'm playing a very long game.

[gubellini 4,004]

Rhodesy looking at sons of Fastnet Rock may be the way to go. He is by Danehill out of a Royal Academy mare. El Roca and Rock 'N' Pop come to mind and for the budget breeder The Bold One is standing for only $2,000 plus GST at Grangewilliam Stud this season.

[gubellini 4,004]

Rhodesy another Grangewilliam Stud stallion to look at would be Haradasun.He is by the Kentucky Derby winner Fusaichi Pegasus whose second dam Rowdy Angel was by Halo. Another stallion with Halo blood is Perfectly Ready who is by More Than Ready who was by Halo's son Southern Halo.

[Tesio 14]

Thanks Gubellini, ill check those suggestions out. Cheers,

[gubellini 4,004]

Also check out Shamoline Warrior who is by Shamardal who is bred 5x4 to Halo.

[Tapu 48]

Most powerful female line is the one on the bottom line,. This is where it counts.  Most mares will have other good mares sprinkled thru pedigree somwhere but to say a mare is from a particular family means her tail fremale family (with a family number) ie Crimson Saint's daughter Terlingua is family 8. As are any mares born from those descendants 

[Tesio 14]

Hi Tapu, totally agree with you, reason I bought this mare in the first place is that her 4th dam is Cosmah.

[ngatimaru 51]

Hey Gubellini.

You seem to know what your talking about.

Could you please advise on the way we should (or should not) Go.

Me & my brother have a mare by Batchelor Duke x Danehill mare.

She is in foal to Super Easy & going again when she drops.

What are your thought on next season.Re.Sires

Your Wisdom appreciated.

 

 

I

[gubellini 4,004]

Hi Ngatimaru. Must stress I am not a breeder! Just an owner with a lot of hands on experience with horses over the years. With Super Easy you have had Danehill close up on both sides. I think Super Easy was a good choice. I have a small share in a 2f by him and also shares in several Darci Brahmas so I am a bit biased! For future matings might be worth trying to get away from Danehill line sires. If you are looking for a sprinter Bullbars would be my choice. He is leaving very well balanced and muscular types who can run. The Bachelor Dukes tend to be big horses who are a bit dour and prefer wet tracks.If you are looking to breed a stayer I would suggest Redwood. They are starting to show up at the Trials and races now that they have turned 3. What is the name of your mare? I would like to check her breeding before commenting further. Thanks.

[gubellini 4,004]

Ngatimaru Bachelor Duke has so far only had one SW as a broodmare sire. That was the recently retired Fastnet Rock mare Lumosty who won five and $492,000 in Australia. She won two Group Twos. If you want to continue to breed to Danehill line sires it would pay to look at any son of Fastnet Rock such as El Roca, Rock 'N' Pop or The Bold One. By doing this you would get a similar cross to Lumosty.

[.... 226]

26 minutes ago, gubellini said:

Ngatimaru Bachelor Duke has so far only had one SW as a broodmare sire. That was the recently retired Fastnet Rock mare Lumosty who won five and $492,000 in Australia. She won two Group Twos. If you want to continue to breed to Danehill line sires it would pay to look at any son of Fastnet Rock such as El Roca, Rock 'N' Pop or The Bold One. By doing this you would get a similar cross to Lumosty.

Gubellini, I see that you pay reference to the 'nicks' of successful race horses. In regards to this one what about the poor record of Danehill (Danzig to a less degree) in-breeding as an overall rule.

 

 

[gubellini 4,004]

Thanks BruceL I am not really a fan of nicks more patterns in breeding. Large studs like Waikato Stud produce large numbers of nicks through sheer weight of numbers.You see examples of this weekly e.g. today at Caufield Race 5 winner Legless Veuve is by Pins out of an O'Reilly mare.Recent winner Bullrush is by O'Reilly out of a Pins mare. One name I look for in a pedigree is Nijinsky. He features in the pedigree of many top horses in Australia and New Zealand in recent years. Horses like Sunline, Black Caviar, So You Think, Northerly, Tie The Knot, Atlantic Jewel, Veandercross, Poetic Prince etc. The list is endless and being added to weekly by Fastnet Rock and his sons.

[gubellini 4,004]

BruceL Ken Beer has recently written about the poor record of Danehill crosses. Hence my initial suggestion to Ngatimaru to perhaps look at non Danehill line sires for future matings.

[.... 226]

No worries . Remember when looking at nicks/patterns look at winners/runners & stakes winners/runners and not just pure results, gives more of an accurate gage 

More trying to work out logic around recommending sending a mare  that is out of a Danehill mare to a Danehill line stallion when this has proven to be not very successful.

I believe more importance comes from a mares female line and not just the broodmare sire, knowing your mares strengths/weaknesses physically and pedigree wise.

 

[gubellini 4,004]

BruceL good points. When looking at catalogue pedigrees I hone in on horses whose first three dams have a high percentage of winners to starters. If you are fortunate to discover a horse whose first three dams have 100% records chances are that this young horse will be a winner as well. Families like this are sound with good temperaments and good heart/lung capacities. Play the percentages is a good motto!

[.... 226]

25 minutes ago, gubellini said:

BruceL Ken Beer has recently written about the poor record of Danehill crosses. Hence my initial suggestion to Ngatimaru to perhaps look at non Danehill line sires for future matings.

I agree with your initial suggestion!

But you also said Super Easy was a good choice so working out your thinking!

Be cautious when looking at "patterns" for example the one stakeswinner out of a Bachelor Duke mare You mentioned is by Fastnet Rock! out of an Irish G3 winner who is from a G1 producing family so maybe not so much the Bachelor Duke factor! 

All talking points and discussion anyway! No right answers!

[gubellini 4,004]

Thanks BruceL. The reason I like Super Easy is simple. He is by Darci Brahma who has a winning strike rate of 70% winners to starters! Part of the reason for this is that most of his progeny are very correct and have great temperaments. No other stallion standing in N.Z. can match this winning ratio.

[.... 226]

7 hours ago, gubellini said:

Thanks BruceL. The reason I like Super Easy is simple. He is by Darci Brahma who has a winning strike rate of 70% winners to starters! Part of the reason for this is that most of his progeny are very correct and have great temperaments. No other stallion standing in N.Z. can match this winning ratio.

Definitely not an attack on Super Easy, more looking at why you considered Super Easy was a good choice for the Bachelor Duke mare out of the Danehill mare ( very hard to give any thoughts when the mare hasn't actually been named and have no idea of the female line)

Super Easy an interesting one, questions for me are if his Singapore form is good enough, can Darci Brahma be a sire of sires (does he even have a group winning entire? (Singapore domestic races don't count internationally they are classed as Sgp-1 etc), his progeny that I've seen are quite small and lack some scope,  on a positive note his female family is very current and well performed in Australia and he has served over 100 mares in first 3 seasons so should get every chance to show something

[gubellini 4,004]

I have seen quite a few of the Super Easy's at Karaka. Some of his colts were in fact quite big and well developed and his fillies were generally a bit on the small side. ALL coped well with the sale ring environment. He has had two fillies to trial so far and both have won at their only trial. Looks promising at this very early stage. Matter of whether they can perform on raceday!

[.... 226]

Definitely in the Darci Brahma mound and lack a bit of scope particularly the fillies, dependent on the female lines though of course as that's where the size may come from.

Question is if they will end up any good (time will tell) and early 2yo trials over 600m are not a great guide! 

Have been a few trial now and the Finishing School filly's trial was very nice, he has a speed pedigree so progeny could likely be limited distance wise.

IMO hard to see him being more than a bread and butter type stallion and would expect most geldings to end up in Asia, would love to be wrong as Hallmark deserve a bit of luck they haven't had much with their stallions in recent times

[ngatimaru 51]

Hi Gubellini,

Thanks for your words. Her Name is Nobility.

Your thought appreciated.

Cheers RT.