A Question for Greg

[toolittletoolate 80]

I have a gelding just turned 5 - has had 5 starts for a win and minor placings amassing $7,400 in NZ Stakes in first prep but after deduction of all costs for that prep about $16,000 loss, does not include all previous preps and costs since foal. Horse has been in paddock at home since May. Current rating of 62. Trainer (very respected) has a high opinion. 

Here is my issue - cost of new prep will be around $14,000 before he will be competitive to earn (that includes 2 local starts - no travel). Will also cost 2 points so he will be down to 60 rating. By then it will be January and he wont have enough points to start in Saturday race, so we be racing for $3800 winning purse. Lets say he won and was given 7 points - 67. Now in 75 class and still wont have enough points for Saturday. Meanwhile another month, another set of bills which deletes winnings thus far. Still on the $3800 band wagon. So i'm down $14,000 still and racing for pittance. Lets say he wins another - that's 3 wins so puts him in an elite group of horses in NZ that win 3+ races in their career. Then we make it to Saturday class - finally, but realistically probably 6/7 maybe 8 starts into prep. Time for break? 

Luckily I have my own agistment, so no cost there apart from silage/hay making, fertiliser, my own time and costs for running repairs for fencing and tractor etc. But I do not include any agistment costs in my budgets.

So Greg - my question, given your vast experience and knowledge of horse ownership what would you do? Continue to race in NZ (long tunnel - no light) or retire?

 

[von Smallhaussen 3,226]

4 minutes ago, toolittletoolate said:

 

So Greg - my question, given your vast experience and knowledge of horse ownership what would you do? Continue to race in NZ (long tunnel - no light) or retire?

 

no way will Greg retire - he is on the pigs back 

[Ohokaman 5,841]

Would have been a good question to ask him on Peter Earley's show today.

Country circuit in Australia might be an option TL.....you are pushing it uphill here to break even....

[gubellini 4,004]

Tauranga races today. Both R65 Races stake $7,000 the same as the four Maiden races. They should be at least $8,000. 

[toolittletoolate 80]

2 hours ago, Ohokaman said:

Country circuit in Australia might be an option TL.....you are pushing it uphill here to break even....

Yes I have crunched those numbers and they are not that bad.

But here is another real issue. i am just so pissed off with our administration at both NZRB and NZTA level I just cant be bothered supporting their product anymore. Year after year we just hear the same tripe and the only direction we have is backwards. I have no faith or trust in any of the management. 

For several years I have invested, I have owned in excess of 20 thoroughbreds over the last 12 years, all 100%. At the beginning of this year I had 9 (no not 90 - just 9), I have 5 left. One of those is a broodmare who is coming up 3 years without any intimacy. She has been told that even though she is in her prime those days are over unless she can sort for herself. I have 2 three year old's and one just turned two - all boys and all who will be tried and trialed with the intention to sell. None will race in NZ under my name unless absolutely necessary, - that being if we think we can win a race to sell. I lost my other broodmare, syndicated one (he still hasn't raced) and tried 2 filly's - both at age three. One of these went pretty good, was told she would win a few but needed time - would however struggle to get black type, the other no good. Both were retired immediately and found good homes, thankfully quiet types.

That's me - I'm out. I don't trust our brand anymore. I love the game and most of the people, I love the thrill of the chase - to try and find that good one who i may read about one day on page 3. But as a punter as well I have also been in conflict with my self for several years - I love the Aussie punt, i hate just about everything of the NZ punt - the tracks, the inconsistent track preparation, small betting pools, the amateur broadcast, the inconsistent tempo, the gutless odds etc. I stopped having a serious bet here years ago. I hate to bet offshore knowing that I am not supporting in my own small way the industry that I myself invest in, even though I easily spend 4/5 times more on the punt than I do on paying the breeding and ownership bills. I will feel at peace soon when I shift my betting offshore again.

But I've had a gutsful and sick of getting a two fingered salute from above who will neither front up or f**k off.  One or the other would be a good start.

 

 

 

 

[awego 182]

I'm at the same point, when the last of mine are finished racing they will not be replaced. They make $$$ off a product we provide with our blood sweat and tears. I love this industry, it's in my blood, but the returns are just not worth it.

[Ohokaman 5,841]

We feel your pain TL. There are many more out there feeling the same way.

A breeder and multiple owner who still can't make any money.....not looking good is it ?

What, from your perspective would make things better, and give you a better chance of coming out in front, or at least even..

Tax incentives, the rating system, stake levels, general costs etc all feature here don't they....?

[Midget 4,489]

33 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

We feel your pain TL. There are many more out there feeling the same way.

A breeder and multiple owner who still can't make any money.....not looking good is it ?

What, from your perspective would make things better, and give you a better chance of coming out in front, or at least even..

Tax incentives, the rating system, stake levels, general costs etc all feature here don't they....?

 A CEO who has some idea what he is doing would be a start.I am in the same boat I have had enough after 45 years at various levels,but enough is enough.

Would there be any chance of a report from Purcell on any of the junkets he has been TO JUSTIFY THE EXPENSE,not to bullshit and say he presented a paper on wastage,when it has been made clear that he did the intro,for FS. Who the hell would employ this imbecile,beside us???

He is devoid of any constructive ideas and will leave a trail of destruction when he is finally pushed back to the land where he came from.

SNR

 

[We're Doomed 4,866]

Do you know the interesting thing? Management would use your comments as justification for what they are doing. Their argument would be that we can't afford this lower level of unsustainable racing with poorly performing horses and we are better off without them. It's why they are trying to cull out all of you people and just retain the the "rather dubious" top tier breeder orientated racing. They don't see any need for basic infrastructure and patterned racing. They don't see any need for country tracks to introduce new generations to racing. Why do you think we have $7,000 races? The sooner you people all go the better as far as the "Think Tank" is concerned.

[Huey 2,037]

I think you're pushing your luck thinking you'll get a  question answered by this crowd in the first place.

I find it difficult to understand why the majority of people in racing who race a  horse think they should make money out of it, there are no guarantees in the sport and it's fraught with layer upon layer of misfortune,bad luck and intervention from the gods.You don't see a guy who takes his fishing boat out , drives a speedway car, goes skiing etc. make a profit out of what is usually their leisure activity.

However having said that I do sympathize with you when you're racing a horse under a regime where the odds are so heavily stacked against you even breaking even it's a struggle to stay in the game and I know  it shouldn't be like that.

I can't see the racing pie increasing any time soon, therefore I believe there needs to a fundamental change to the allocation of the pie i.e. more support for stakes at the industry level even if that means taking them from the top tier to keep owners ticking over in the sport until it improves and I keep bleating on about it a return to free racing, it simply defies belief that an owner is expected to pay noms and acceptances to enter races like we have here.

Better use of the tracks available i.e. stop the unnecessary over allocation of race dates to a favoured few tracks and start preparing a calendar that has the punter and racing communities in mind , alter the diabolical funding policy which looks like it was put together by a 2yo to something that incentivises clubs to support stakes and owners instead of a policy that favours a handful of clubs at the expense of others.

I hate to say it but I have no faith anything logical will occur under the current regime at NZTR so the outlook is fairly gloomy imo. 

[biff 2,158]

16 hours ago, toolittletoolate said:

I have a gelding just turned 5 - has had 5 starts for a win and minor placings amassing $7,400 in NZ Stakes in first prep but after deduction of all costs for that prep about $16,000 loss, does not include all previous preps and costs since foal. Horse has been in paddock at home since May. Current rating of 62. Trainer (very respected) has a high opinion. 

Here is my issue - cost of new prep will be around $14,000 before he will be competitive to earn (that includes 2 local starts - no travel). Will also cost 2 points so he will be down to 60 rating. By then it will be January and he wont have enough points to start in Saturday race, so we be racing for $3800 winning purse. Lets say he won and was given 7 points - 67. Now in 75 class and still wont have enough points for Saturday. Meanwhile another month, another set of bills which deletes winnings thus far. Still on the $3800 band wagon. So i'm down $14,000 still and racing for pittance. Lets say he wins another - that's 3 wins so puts him in an elite group of horses in NZ that win 3+ races in their career. Then we make it to Saturday class - finally, but realistically probably 6/7 maybe 8 starts into prep. Time for break? 

Luckily I have my own agistment, so no cost there apart from silage/hay making, fertiliser, my own time and costs for running repairs for fencing and tractor etc. But I do not include any agistment costs in my budgets.

So Greg - my question, given your vast experience and knowledge of horse ownership what would you do? Continue to race in NZ (long tunnel - no light) or retire?

 

Dear TLTL, I can vouch for at least 3 trainers in Oz that have trained for me, all champion blokes and Gr winning trainers, they'll be only too happy to take your fella, sorry loss for NZ trainers, but you can kick back and watch your mate go around at Dubbo, or Scone, or Inshalla, Randwick et al…….the training fees may be a tad higher, not so much I'm led to believe for a couple up north, but at least you will win one race, just one race and re-coup your exes. Plus they will pay the jock for you, no acceptance, and they'll even pay you up to 1200 bucks to front up…….go figure?

[Trump 2,741]

Don't blame the Monkey when you can point the bone at the Grinder - the Board. The NZTR Board are approving everything he does. So please, don't blame a person because you think he is not up to it. The Board condone it so it's "their" responsibility. As for getting out of the game you love. It will cost you about $3200 a month to race a horse in Qld or country NSW/Vic. The stakes are reasonable and if you have a couple of partners the costs are not bad considering the possible gains. You can still punt on them and you have far more options. Northern NSW is starting to fire up. Sunshine Coast races "every week" on a Sunday and if you can graduate there, it's only a short ride to Doomben or The Farm. Then there's the glorious weather when you come for a holiday....don't give up your passion for owning a horse and dreaming of the good one - just shift it to Oz. Get one from the sales and ship it over after it's had a trial. Just prepare them in NZ. Trent Bussuttin has about 20-30 empty stables to fill at Cranbourne. There's a start.

[Midget 4,489]

Fair points Trump.

I guess the cynics would argue that with an " independent " board there is no one who has sufficient experience to make the decision makers accountable. That said the breeders have representation, and have had since day 1, !!  ....that's a surprise, fancy the breeders dictating racing policy and strategy.

As for your " glorious weather " claims....Queensland....a sunny place for shady people.

 

[Trump 2,741]

Haha, I take it you are referring to the hundred thousand or so kiwis who call Qld home? Re the issues at hand. I still think the Board has a lot to answer for the state of NZ racing. Both Boards. The CEO of NZTR answers to one of them. There's been no visible advance in NZ for the last 10 years. So you'd have to give them a big fail. There's not enough action at Govt and Board level to face the situation head on and present a win/win situation for both the govt and the racing industry. Increases in employment and movement in the Industry = increased revenue for the govt and a subsequent improved social fabric within NZ. The solution is there. All it needs is a collective will and agreement and a yellow brick road to the rainbow. Unfortunately, all we have is a Pied Piper and a bunch of bottem feeders, glossing up their CV's on a loser! 

[Midget 4,489]

Do the math Trump.

NZRB, seven board members ( including Chair ), one single TB delegate  = 14.3% TB representation 

NZTR, six board members ( including Chair ), all allegedly independent as per the constitution ( note it includes some breeders though !! ) = say zero % racing but 50% breeders representation.

Can you see why we've got problems ? Until the racing industry governance is put firmly in the hands of racing people we've got no chance of achieving anything useful or constructive. All that board can reasonably be expected to care about is making the cost of racing and breeding their own horses cheaper because that's their only connection to the industry. 

I should add that of the NZTR board only two members really race horses at a significant level anyway, by that I mean direct ownership and control the said horses.

[chevy86 2,707]

Just been reading about Fonterra. Seems to have used the same governance template as NZTR where the true grafters (farmers/trainers/owners) reap meagre returns after the bloated bureaucracy has plundered the finances. As we a both operating in a zoological environment the word "parasite" is very appropriate.

[mr dickson cider 104]

I"m the same opinion. Had shares in horses for 30 odd years my current one just turned 4 and won't be replaced. Its just not worth it anymore.

[chevy86 2,707]

We will not be at the Sales in the future. Have bought 4 in the last 4 years (100% ownership) but no more under the Guy/Purcell/Allen/Hughes regime. Our kids will love the inheritance stabilisation!!

[toolittletoolate 80]

On 8/3/2016 at 7:42 PM, Ohokaman said:

What, from your perspective would make things better, and give you a better chance of coming out in front, or at least even..

Tax incentives, the rating system, stake levels, general costs etc all feature here don't they....?

I think there are a number of things:

I don't have an expectation that every horse I own will make money, break even or win Group races, we all know the stats - or roughly anyway as to how many horses either  a. don't make it to raceday (too slow), b. don't win a race, c. win only one race ---then the gap d. win only two races ----another gap e. 3 and f. 4 or more. Then those who succumb to injuries in all those categories above. All accepted risks. We all have options on how we spend our disposable incomes, what hobbies/interests we have that provide us entertainment, socialising, friendships etc. A good non racing mate said to me at his third wedding years ago -"you own 2 horses, your mad!" I replied "you've had 2 divorces and your working on your third and you think I'm Mad?". So I did not come on here to whinge about how much I've flushed, more so in frustration that we get served. 

But if I was in charge, or in a position to have some input I would be looking at the following:

1. Compressing Stakes - $12k, $20k and $40k cap on all non Black type. Listed 75k, G3 100k, G2 150k and G1 200k. 8 races per meeting and 5 meetings per week (1-40k,2-20k and 3-12k). Additional funding will be required for holiday season etc and topping up Black type racing. All races will be funded to these levels - if clubs want to increase a stake then up to them (derbys, cups etc). Trim off the top and increase the bottom - because we need to accept that a majority of the horses that make it to the track will not win 3+ races (stand to be corrected) and accept our current position requires stability before re-growth.

2. Ratings - let our horses move slowly through the grades, give them an opportunity to race for 20 and 40k after one win, and let them compete in a similar grade once they hit form. Maidens, R65 and R75 grades is where I would target. These are almost always congested and hard to win. Need R70 and reduction in points when horse wins. That's a start, encourage Sp Cond maiden races every week in the 20k and 40k days - these races are under patronised, they are an excellent opportunity for a double kill in same prep. 

3. General Costs for Training, Riders, stable hands, farriers floating I find acceptable. Some vet bills though?

4. Tax Incentives - yes of course but some things we can change now some things take time.

Just my view on some of the issues, others may disagree - its a democracy after all! We all have a wish list I guess, i just wish we had a board with more kahuna's sometimes. A board who was made up of Racing like people, who don't mind thumping the table at board meetings and Parliament. And making NZRB accountable and who don't like getting their back scratched or who are sometimes blind in one eye, a board that would demand results and not just accept what is given, a board passionate for the racing industry and racing industry only - who communicate, seek mandate and don't mind mucking in now and again. 

BTW - anyone know how Fast Track is going, how much clubs and stake levels are benefiting?

[Chris Wood 1,577]

You really have put some thought into this and make some really valid points.

I was at a Meeting that involved trainers being addressed by Greg Purcell some 18 -24 months ago at the Onyx Bar in Cambridge.

I thumped the table and said that we were hearing what Greg was telling us for the tenth time and nothing would change! 

Some of my fellow trainers looked at me as if I had 3 f.....n heads.

And where are we now, possibly further down the creek than we were then.

Sad but true, we are going nowhere under our current set up, and we want answers!

 

[Ohokaman 5,841]

Get along to John Allen's Roadshow TL and ask the hard questions. Will be interesting to hear the response.

[Trump 2,741]

Hakason, it's not a Roadshow but more a Poorshow and probably a NoShow. The "Only" way that this will have any effect is "IF" all concerned Trainers, Stablehands, jockeys, owners, etc, get off their collective arses and saturate these roadshow sideshows. If you don't, then JA and the Petone Phoneys are going to think they are worthy of their bonuses. So Woodsie and co, rally the troops from out of the warm telly room and open fire and open fire at these meetings!! Here's your chance if you are serious!!

[toolittletoolate 80]

12 hours ago, Trump said:

Hakason, it's not a Roadshow but more a Poorshow and probably a NoShow. The "Only" way that this will have any effect is "IF" all concerned Trainers, Stablehands, jockeys, owners, etc, get off their collective arses and saturate these roadshow sideshows. If you don't, then JA and the Petone Phoneys are going to think they are worthy of their bonuses. So Woodsie and co, rally the troops from out of the warm telly room and open fire and open fire at these meetings!! Here's your chance if you are serious!!

If the NZTR were truly representative of our Industry, they should be rallying troops to attend such Roadshows, if fact they should already be asking these questions to NZRB on our behalf - and reporting back. Likewise the Trainers Association and Owners association and all those who claim sector representation. They should already have been rocking the boat at NZTR level at the least. The NZTR should be encouraging all Race Clubs to contact all their members to attend. I doubt they will.

I would encourage Race Clubs to advise their members, at the very least write a letter and have a race club rep deliver. 

[toolittletoolate 80]

Doing the form last night and noticed Don Frampton has a share in a horse in the first in Sydney today - Good Luck Don, yet another owner who raced several in NZ over the years who still resides here but races off shore. Has a share in Music Magnate as well - I think.

Had horses like Booming, Armstrong, Snazzy etc - in NZ. I use to read his threads on here years ago - thought he had great foresight and passion. Always thought if I had a vote he would be someone I would have liked to see on our board and also as our board rep on NZRB. Probably just can't be stuffed anymore?

 

[porky 900]

On 8/5/2016 at 7:53 AM, Chris Wood said:

You really have put some thought into this and make some really valid points.

I was at a Meeting that involved trainers being addressed by Greg Purcell some 18 -24 months ago at the Onyx Bar in Cambridge.

I thumped the table and said that we were hearing what Greg was telling us for the tenth time and nothing would change! 

Some of my fellow trainers looked at me as if I had 3 f.....n heads.

And where are we now, possibly further down the creek than we were then.

Sad but true, we are going nowhere under our current set up, and we want answers!

 

Demand 3 monthly result updates, new funding initiatives,elected grass root racing representatives...PLEASE...(let me know when expected please) 

Keep them honest and make them accountable on this whirlwind whiteboard Q & A , meet the Breeders Tour.