Ohokaman

Donna tells it like it is....

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Donna is a very good trainer and in recent years she has scored some  big wins that would have provided her with healthy trainer's percentages.

Therefore if she is having cash flow issues,  I would agree with Grant that she needs to look at her business model.

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2 hours ago, Brown Fox said:

Slightly off topic.Can anyone remember the top class sprinter Donna had about 10 years ago which retired to the Matrons paddock?

Pretty sure it's name started with a J. How has it done?

Not sure who you are referring to here BF. Jazzella maybe...??

She has had some pretty good sorts over the years - Habibi, Telepathic, Vapour Trail, Good Faith, Mosquito, El Duce, Ring of Fire, Castle Heights, Zabeat, Jazzella, Dashing Donna, Kendoka, Durham Town...and of course Rising Romance, VSB, Hasselhoof and Valley Girl.

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1 hour ago, Ohokaman said:

Not sure who you are referring to here BF. Jazzella maybe...??

She has had some pretty good sorts over the years - Habibi, Telepathic, Vapour Trail, Good Faith, Mosquito, El Duce, Ring of Fire, Castle Heights, Zabeat, Jazzella, Dashing Donna, Kendoka, Durham Town...and of course Rising Romance, VSB, Hasselhoof and Valley Girl.

Thanks Ohokaman.It was Jazella I was thinking of.

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59 minutes ago, Blue said:

Plus 40 - 60 horses in work @ $50 a day. Surely must be some margin in that.

So what if there is... she is one of the best... what about the ones lower down the pecking order..... no wonder we are seeing people choose to leave NZ and good people... how many more will follow before the lights go out.!!!

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As sad as it all is the saddest part is for the owners, look after them and things will flourish, think of the owners before the trainers and the whole shebang will come right.

    I was determined to have a good horse not that long ago but soon learned the realities of thoroughbred racing.

    What really woke me up was when our horse ran third in a 15 horse maiden at Te Rapa and the next day we had a not very good greyhound win a midweek maiden race and the greyhound earned more than the horse.

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3 hours ago, Blue said:

Plus 40 - 60 horses in work @ $50 a day. Surely must be some margin in that.

Help me understand exactly where the margin is ?

Here's some rough costs ( every stable is different though so give me some latitude )

One labour unit per four horses ( good stables might be more labour intensive, battlers might spread it a bit thinner ) at say $20/hour, so let's say in a ten hour day the labour cost per horse is 2.5 hours at $20 = $50

Feed costs vary enormously across NZ but if you're buying the absolute best hay at say $18 a bale, and you're feeding the best proprietary feed, say Race 13, plus protein supplements, multi vitamins, the best Omega 3 and flax oils etc ..you can budget for $20+ a day minimum on feed and supplements per horse.

Then you need a work rider at say $12 a day, then you've got your gear replacements, ACC, insurance, rent or mortgage, vehicle expenses, Internet, telephone, repairs and maintenance, let's keep it simple and call that $10 a day per horse.

Now do the math Blue.

$50+$20+$12+$10 = $92 dollars a day

The only thing you're right about is that the business model should change, and every class A trainer in the country should be advised to charge owners $120 per day per horse, then they'd still only be getting a salary equivalent to half what the fat useless bastards telling them what to do are getting, minus the overseas junkets.

I've ignored commissions on sales and the 10% of stakes wins because the bank won't lend on those so why should they be included.

I've also excluded the fact 98.3% of trainers own shares in a substantial percentage of their own horses, which further defrays the modest margins.

Back to you, tell us where the margin is, unless you decide not to feed them or work them then your stupid model might work....., this tiresome criticism of trainers by ignorant people on this site does my fucking head in )

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15 hours ago, Midget said:

Help me understand exactly where the margin is ?

Here's some rough costs ( every stable is different though so give me some latitude )

One labour unit per four horses ( good stables might be more labour intensive, battlers might spread it a bit thinner ) at say $20/hour, so let's say in a ten hour day the labour cost per horse is 2.5 hours at $20 = $50

Feed costs vary enormously across NZ but if you're buying the absolute best hay at say $18 a bale, and you're feeding the best proprietary feed, say Race 13, plus protein supplements, multi vitamins, the best Omega 3 and flax oils etc ..you can budget for $20+ a day minimum on feed and supplements per horse.

Then you need a work rider at say $12 a day, then you've got your gear replacements, ACC, insurance, rent or mortgage, vehicle expenses, Internet, telephone, repairs and maintenance, let's keep it simple and call that $10 a day per horse.

Now do the math Blue.

$50+$20+$12+$10 = $92 dollars a day

The only thing you're right about is that the business model should change, and every class A trainer in the country should be advised to charge owners $120 per day per horse, then they'd still only be getting a salary equivalent to half what the fat useless bastards telling them what to do are getting, minus the overseas junkets.

I've ignored commissions on sales and the 10% of stakes wins because the bank won't lend on those so why should they be included.

I've also excluded the fact 98.3% of trainers own shares in a substantial percentage of their own horses, which further defrays the modest margins.

Back to you clever dick, tell us where the margin is, unless you decide not to feed them or work them then your stupid model might work.....FW ( the W is for wit, apologies if you're not one but this tiresome criticism of trainers by ignorant people on this site does my fucking head in )

Let me confirm this -

last Autumn we trained our own horse that had 4 starts and won and had a 2nd at premier Saturday meetings in R65.

Mrs vS rode all the trackwork incl gallops so we did the lot ourselves.... this horse only just paid his way. Does anyone wonder why he is now eating grass in a paddock?

By the way this trainer has had 66 starts over the years for 12 wins, 2 of which were stakes races so does know what to do and what is required! 

Sad really. :mellow:

 

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Mr VS, your story is a sad one, Mrs VS also, a tragic loss to the industry, all that experience, passion and ability …….gone, as I've said many times, how on earth can an entity such as NZ with roughly the same pop as NSW desend into an abyss as it has?……..was someone asleep at the wheel? when I left NZ in 72 or was it 73…..this place could match dear old Oz in every respect with it's racing, it's such a shame to see what's happened, shame is the word alright. I doubt this has happened in any other industry here, or maybe I'm wrong and you good buggers will set me straight, maybe the car industry, Todd Motors et al, however, it's the loss of great people that hurts, yourselves, the Belshams just to name a few, I'm lucky racing is not my core business, for those though that have lost their livelihood then good counsel should be mandatory. My old boss used to say, ''it's not the problem that's the problem, it's how you fix it''…….human nature being what it is, well, there a few at the top who have never had life so good, they don't want to address the issue, to them, there is no issue, we all know who they are, it will take the younger brigade, …it's they who will need to do the hard yards, either that. or they will need to train at Pakenham, Flemington or Rosehill/W Farm etc in order to have a healthy [mind, body, bank acc] otherwise settle for mediocrity. They are too good for that, so if they have a yearning for professional excellence, then the ditch will be a jump in waiting. We hope Mrs VS is enjoying the winter lay ins, as are you……all the best….Biff.

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3 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

So what if there is... she is one of the best... what about the ones lower down the pecking order..... no wonder we are seeing people choose to leave NZ and good people... how many more will follow before the lights go out.!!!

Agreed Scoobs, and many of her bigger winners she has a share in so just accentuates the situation but you either suck it up , go to Aussie or buy a burger bar.

 

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23 minutes ago, Blue said:

Agreed Scoobs, and many of her bigger winners she has a share in so just accentuates the situation but you either suck it up , go to Aussie or buy a burger bar.

 

So that is your answer???? Buy a burger bar... wow that really solves it. What about the money you thought she was making at 50 a day??? So you think it is OK for one of the leading stables in the country to have the choice either suck it up or buy a burger bar???

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How much does the TAB / TRACKSIDE suck out of the industry ?

The very luxury of being able to watch televised races from one end of the country to the other is the very reason why the majority of those that used to GO to the races simply sit at home or record and view later......... we are all guilty of this. The on course patronage is pathetic and the facilities for those other than owner/trainer/members are non-existent in most cases. The majority of the tracks around the country are in a gross state of disrepair and those that are not have an income stream from other sources ( Ellerslie and Alex Park ). How ironic then that the revenue for the clubs has become dependent on the very people that have taken it away BUT contribute proportionately less than they have taken away.

To exacerbate the situation we have the wonderfully gifted management at Ellerslie in the past few years stuffing up something that will never return , the Xmas Carnival. Just like having two Xmas dinners it aint special anymore.

IMO thoroughbred racing has one thing in its favour ........... it still has the product.

 

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2 hours ago, Midget said:

50 horses if what's claimed on here is true, big barn that !!

 

Only 600 less than Waller and Waterhouse. BTW--no way Logan/Gibbs charge only $50/day! So futile doing the maths Midget when so many inputs inaccurate. Hay $18/bale--are you buying it from Kakama?--the very BEST available in my locale for $12/bale. Track riders--as you well know horses do not get worked EVERY day. etc, etc, etc

 

I think the topic is going nowhere so probably best to park it before it gets too personal. Let's get onto bullfighting , the animal abuse inherent in the stadium events and finally "one for the bull" yesterday!

 

 

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Very true Ivan. Things have certainly progressed over the years and the TAB is only interested in turnover, from any source.

I've often wondered what the effect on turnover and on-course attendances would be without Trackside.

Didn't bother punters in the past, but would be an interesting exercise to see if they flocked back to the track now...

The days of the big on-course jackpots where you had to be there created some real excitement and atmosphere..

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1 minute ago, Ohokaman said:

 

The days of the big on-course jackpots where you had to be there created some real excitement and atmosphere..

Ah, the nostalgia--sleeping in the car waiting for the gates to open at Matamata (Peter Moran--Panza Chief) and driving to Palmy for another huge one only to be out first race! No need for Tinder in those days!

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12 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

Only 600 less than Waller and Waterhouse. BTW--no way Logan/Gibbs charge only $50/day! So futile doing the maths Midget when so many inputs inaccurate. Hay $18/bale--are you buying it from Kakama?--the very BEST available in my locale for $12/bale. Track riders--as you well know horses do not get worked EVERY day. etc, etc, etc

 

I think the topic is going nowhere so probably best to park it before it gets too personal. Let's get onto bullfighting , the animal abuse inherent in the stadium events and finally "one for the bull" yesterday!

 

 

Exactly I saw a video recently of a horse in the bullfighting ring get gored.... i saw it weeks ago still feel sick every time i think of it.... the barbaric practice should have been banned centuries ago... 

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32 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

Only 600 less than Waller and Waterhouse. BTW--no way Logan/Gibbs charge only $50/day! So futile doing the maths Midget when so many inputs inaccurate. Hay $18/bale--are you buying it from Kakama?--the very BEST available in my locale for $12/bale. Track riders--as you well know horses do not get worked EVERY day. etc, etc, etc

 

I think the topic is going nowhere so probably best to park it before it gets too personal. Let's get onto bullfighting , the animal abuse inherent in the stadium events and finally "one for the bull" yesterday!

 

 

I didn't state the $50 a day FFS, I responded to someone who did use that figure and said there was a margin there. Please read the thread.

I'm sorry for telling the exact truth and ruining the story though.

FYI, yes some of us use a specialist hay grower who works at the Massey Vet Clinic, and might be described as a specialist, but who farms in Marton, and who grows hay on demand for special clients who want the hay cut at the right time to maximise nutritional value, but I suppose that might go over your head so let's agree that we'll ignore that and agree with you and your claims that hay is worth $12.....you get what you pay for in life....and you get out of a horse what you put in to it so good luck with your $12 hay.

To close, if they're sound and in full training horses get worked six days a week, presuming your trainer is an honest professional, I'm not sure who trains for you but I rather suspect he's/she's not doing well if they don't work their horses.

Over to you now, tell us how you cut corners and how well it all works out in the long run.

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