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So it's all about the punters is it ?

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48 minutes ago, von Smallhaussen said:

what do the supermarkets do each week to get customers in ? - They have loss leaders!

The TAB needs a loss leader ie: an easy attractive bet with buggar all take out.

Well I know they have had some dead loss leaders. :rolleyes:

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15 hours ago, barryb said:

 

4,8,6 in that order Midget would turn it around for most punters. Although on the exchange front I am not that sure the average NZ punter would grasp it that well in the short-med term.

Plenty cant even fill out a jetbet slip so understanding how an exchange works and using that might be a road too far.

The TAB could be one of the first to adopt a revolutionary product like 2 friends of mine have created.

http://promo.rewardbet.com/

 

 

Wow...Is that difficult to understand or what?? They need a copyright expert to explain the process

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37 minutes ago, Berri said:

Wow...Is that difficult to understand or what?? They need a copyright expert to explain the process

Berri, I don't know what you mean by copyright i thought there was nothing original in the video although I gave up watching 3/4 way through.

The first half instead of taking half an hour could have been explained in half a minute. Basically a boxed bet means level staking. The bets based on a ratings fairly easy to understand why it should be thought of as Einstein material beyond me.

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I thought it was fairly simple Berri. Must be as I bet through it frequently.

If you bet exotics it's a must, maximises your bet on individual combinations in exotics, stuff small punters only dreamt off. Now you can do for very small bet sizes

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3 minutes ago, slam dunk said:

Berri, I don't know what you mean by copyright i thought there was nothing original in the video although I gave up watching 3/4 way through.

The first half instead of taking half an hour could have been explained in half a minute. Basically a boxed bet means level staking. The bets based on a ratings fairly easy to understand why it should be thought of as Einstein material beyond me.

SD you clearly didn't understand what you were watching. It has nothing to do with level staking. 

It bets individual combinations mate. Stuff that would take you hours to do manually.

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9 minutes ago, barryb said:

SD you clearly didn't understand what you were watching. It has nothing to do with level staking. 

It bets individual combinations mate. Stuff that would take you hours to do manually.

Well I wrote a program to do just that 15 years ago. The problem was the TAB would not let you get on with single bets less than than the minimum. Don't know if the batching process now allows that. The main application was Pick six and still to this day I see syndicates putting on a single $5000 bets whereby they include combinations that have almost no chance of winning wheras they leave out combos with a high chance e.g. fav-Fav-Fav-8th fav-fav-fav  i.e all the favourites except one race with an outsider.

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1 hour ago, von Smallhaussen said:

what do the supermarkets do each week to get customers in ? - They have loss leaders!

The TAB needs a loss leader ie: an easy attractive bet with buggar all take out.

I don't think a loss leader works in a punting context.  Supermarkets can sell baked beans, for example, at lower than cost to get people in the door because they know people will also buy meat, vegetables, toiletries etc. at good margins.  Very few people are only going to buy only baked beans, and thus it's not under-cutting the supermarket's business.  People don't stop eating meat and veg because baked beans are cheap.

In a gambling context, unlike diet, people don't necessarily need variety.  People will generally punt on whatever bet type they believe offers the best return for the risk they want to take, and therefore if there is a bet type with 0% take-out (for example), punters will substitute betting on other options and just bet on the loss leader, therefore killing the TAB's takeout as it will reduce the turnover on other bet types.

An example of when this happened in another business - the "loose change menu" at McDonalds.  You could buy a Chicken McCheese for $2, a small chips for $1, and a small drink for $1.  The idea behind the loose change menu was that McDonald's could up-sell, i.e. a person who buys a combo (with healthy margins for McDonald's), then buys an extra McCheese, therefore spending $2 more than they otherwise would.  What actually happened was people stopped buying the combo because they realised that 3x Chicken McCheese, a small drink and a small chips was a much better deal than buying the combo, and so they substituted the combo for solely buying from the loose change menu.  These loose change items were significantly lower margin than the standard combo for McDonald's, and so whilst revenue stayed similar, McDonald's profit reduced significantly.  I believe this is what would happen if the TAB were to introduce a loss leader. 

 

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4 hours ago, barryb said:

New bet options.

Winning horse - Odds or Evens

Winning horse - over or under say 56kg

Correct finishing order of all runners in main race on a Saturday. Would create a massive jackpot.

This in my opinion is one of the reasons why turnovers are static or declining, to many bet types. The pie, or handle is only so big in any given week. By adding more bet types, this dilutes the pools, smaller the pools, less incentive to bet into it.

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3 minutes ago, aquaman said:

This in my opinion is one of the reasons why turnovers are static or declining, to many bet types. The pie, or handle is only so big in any given week. By adding more bet types, this dilutes the pools, smaller the pools, less incentive to bet into it.

Completely agree. Going back to Midget's questions. The simple way to increase churn is lower takeouts; and we don't need any more high value aspirational bet types like the triple trio thanks.

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8 minutes ago, aquaman said:

This in my opinion is one of the reasons why turnovers are static or declining, to many bet types. The pie, or handle is only so big in any given week. By adding more bet types, this dilutes the pools, smaller the pools, less incentive to bet into it.

Absolute Rubbish.

Firstly there are a number of betting options that are past their best. Place 6, Trebles, Doubles, Pick 6 for starters. Businesses have to keep evolving to survive, holding onto old tired betting ideas is not evolving.

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7 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Completely agree. Going back to Midget's questions. The simple way to increase churn is lower takeouts; and we don't need any more high value aspirational bet types like the triple trio thanks.

& I completely disagree here. What we need is a well thought out idea that jackpots week in week out and captures punters attention. Lower takeouts is great & I fully support it, but thats a short term panacea, its quickly forgotten. Many on here couldn't win in a 105% market, let alone the more uneducated general betting public. so any advantage gained will be incredibly short lived when they realise they are still losing.

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37 minutes ago, barryb said:

& I completely disagree here. What we need is a well thought out idea that jackpots week in week out and captures punters attention. Lower takeouts is great & I fully support it, but thats a short term panacea, its quickly forgotten. Many on here couldn't win in a 105% market, let alone the more uneducated general betting public. so any advantage gained will be incredibly short lived when they realise they are still losing.

You really think racing can go head to head with lotto?

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Why is Lotto an attraction for the broad spectrum of the general public? Is it because it doesn't require any special knowledge, easy to take a ticket, one can win a large amount and all people who take a ticket deemed to be on a level playing field.

Even though we have for example Pick 6 Jackpots do the public keep away because they don't have racing knowledge and perceive they have a lesser chance of winning than a regular punter?

Therefore to attract new punters who will hopefully become regular punters does racing need a premium Lotto type betting game based on one race a week. One where every ticket is a computer generated random number ie easy bet and one cannot choose their own selections. Therefore requiring no knowledge of racing form and everyone is on a level playing field and a game that can jackpot.

EG. Select one race for the week, it doesn't have to be a feature race as many times the fields are not big. Select one with good numbers and the lotto type ticket has to select the first six home in order or perhaps the first five and the last horse (thinking of office sweepstakes). So the numbers are jumbled on each line just like a lotto ticket and it becomes a "Strike Draw of 6."

Each line would cost 50c for example. So a $10 ticket would give you 20 lines etc etc.  

All one needs to do is state the amount they wish to spend and presto the ticket generated. The TAB website would just show the name of the bet, people click on that and then all they have to do is enter the amount of spend. So it is simple. The race that week will automatically be shown, where it is being held and time of race. Any scratchings for example would go onto the highest number not shown on that line.

It would be a good idea to make that race be available for show on Freeview also.

Even looking ahead at having automatic terminals in shopping malls etc where all that has to done is put in whatever amount like a pokie machine and the ticket comes out.                  

 

 

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I sort of get that Ted but wouldn't you meet resistance because Lotto is seen as being "society friendly" and non profit, whereas racing is seen as being seedy, arguably corrupt, and not in need of community support, i.e. fat cats, champagne and Range Rovers at yearling sales time with " you know who " cheerleading and trying to convince the world how well the tangerine dream is going.

Lotto to me sends a lot of warm fuzzy messages to the community and potential customers, racing exposure through the media is on the other hand normally perceived as being about drugs, drama, death ( horses ) or deceit ( see cheerleader above ).

 

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I do get that if you were to introduce that type of bet, that it would be better on a single race, say once a week and jack-potting cf. the triple trio scenario. That said, I agree with Midget that Lotto is largely seen as a community support operation. I well remember my grandparents seeing buying a Tatts ticket as a kind of community obligation in lieu of paying more taxes. Even pokies have more of that flavour than racing. So, such a bet would have none of the appeal that culture creates.

What I'm wondering, is there an example in any other jurisdiction where such a bet type is working?

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Quite agree Hesi. There might be a way this could work, but there's a number of rather tall hurdles to overcome and you have highlighted one.

Another is that Lotto draws are successfully delivered in the evening after 8pm, not on weekdays when most people are working and kids are at school, or on Saturday afternoon when folk are busy playing sport, or watching kids play sport, or gardening, doing DIY projects etc. I think the Avondale lights were last seen in Levin but lord knows where they are now.

Another is that it is pointless selling such a bet in TABs - the general non-punting public don't go there; or on the TAB website - they don't go there either.

If you can overcome those issues it might work.

 

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21 minutes ago, hesi said:

A huge IF.

https://mylotto.co.nz/lotto-changes/

Avondale under lights was a disaster, fields just got smaller and smaller, apparently only a small number of horses liked racing at night

The Lotteries Commission will never allow the TAB to sell a life changing product at the outlets it sells at, High Court stuff

The only positive racing has, is 'a day at the races' is seen very positively by the general unwashed, but I don't know how you build something around that.

The Lotteries Commission has done a superb job in building this warm fuzzy, welcome in every lounge in NZ, around a boring numbers game, perhaps the TAB should ask them how

Not only is it boring Hesi, the odds of even getting a $20 lowest prize are horrendous. Even more frustrating is spending $24 twice a week to collect $20 once every 2-3 months. They have portrayed themselves as a great community benefactor, the reality is now twice a week they are stealing money from many who can least afford it on a near impossible dream.  Its actually very sad how this is accepted in society when it is one of the worst forms of addictive gambling, the number of households spending more than a grand a year on this shit is sickening.

Racing counter to it is to talk about its export earnings, the numbers employed in NZ, and how its of similar importance to NZ economy as wine production and larger than th fishing industry.

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With moving to wed draw as well now the compulsion to buy has doubled for many. Those who choose their own numbers have been crapped on by lotto as they now must purchase both days, as it would in their minds be unbearable to see your numbers coming out on wed when you only buy Saturdays draw. That's addiction at its worst, but will never receive the same negative publicity as someone spending the same amount at the TAB each week.

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10 hours ago, hesi said:

A huge IF.

https://mylotto.co.nz/lotto-changes/

Avondale under lights was a disaster, fields just got smaller and smaller, apparently only a small number of horses liked racing at night

The Lotteries Commission will never allow the TAB to sell a life changing product at the outlets it sells at, High Court stuff

The only positive racing has, is 'a day at the races' is seen very positively by the general unwashed, but I don't know how you build something around that.

The Lotteries Commission has done a superb job in building this warm fuzzy, welcome in every lounge in NZ, around a boring numbers game, perhaps the TAB should ask them how

I was there on the first night. Our filly won and it was a fantastic night because an effort was made. But they didn't have an expert on bars, food or hospitality, in fact it was shit in the end. I went there once and there was no heating. So the wheels fell off. All you've got to do is go to Aussie to see it can be done. There is a place for it. It's one of those things that could be market niche with an edginess about it that adds to the puzzle

As for the long odds jackpot bet, there's only one sensible solution there. We should have it as part of our portfolio offering

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hesi...

How much support did the Club running the night meetings get from those running the industry?

Why is this concept a success in Australia? Are you insinuating that Australian-based horses are more likely to like the night life than New Zealand-based horses?

Pray tell.

All the best.

Ashoka

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2 hours ago, Ashoka said:

hesi...

How much support did the Club running the night meetings get from those running the industry?

Why is this concept a success in Australia? Are you insinuating that Australian-based horses are more likely to like the night life than New Zealand-based horses?

Pray tell.

All the best.

Ashoka

Sydney and Melbourne where most of the night racing takes place both have populations over three times the size of Auckland.

And I didn't need to commission a NERA Economic Consulting report to get that information.

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On 29/06/2016 at 11:51 AM, Racing84 said:

Finally, there have been a few comments on here about money spent on marketing to try and get people on-course being a waste.  I respectfully disagree.  For racing to stand out from other sports, the thrill and experience of going to the track needs to be the point of difference.  When watching racing at home, the experience is competing with any number of things - Super Rugby, NRL, NBA, MLB, Home & Away, Coronation Street, Game of Thrones.  For racing to thrive again, and be more than just another commodity, it needs to find a competitive advantage and for me that has to be about getting people to enjoy the thrill of going to the track.  I think the focus of WHO we should be trying to attract could probably change - the nice, comfortable areas of a race course tending to be reserved for fat cats and corporates who spend $1 e/w on each race, rather than accommodating the serious punter.

 

I believe there are windows of opportunity to market events to get the 'general public' oncourse, and this is important to introduce future 'racing participants', where money spent on marketing doesn't necessarily need to be directly reflected on tote turnover, but is about building a culture and interest for future 'racing participants'. I also think we need aspirational events and race days that excite and thrill owners, but I would say 90% of race days do not fulfill any of these. A specialized 'all weather track' that is focused on the off-course or Trackside tv market which is the biggest market, would provide an environment to start addressing many of the points raised in Midget's list. Horses do not have every start on the days where owners turn up on course for the experience, but have many starts at racecourses where the experience is very poor to say the least. Having a venue which provides opportunities for  building greater returns and also costing the owner less in expenses, for a percentage of the horses starts, then you always have the opportunity to also target the events when there should be an on course experience and the industry can also accentuate those opportunities.

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