So it's all about the punters is it ?

[Leggy 4,093]

6 minutes ago, Jon Trum said:

The only 'Massive' increase has been in the COST to race a horse, CLEARLY EVERYONE agrees with that? that is locked down no argument. So if the increase in stakes had kept up with the increase in racing cost there would have been no drop off in participation, so total stakes have doubled but the cost to race a horse has tripled or more! CLEARLY EVERYONE agrees with that. The graph prior makes no mention of that increase at all so the increase in stakes means absolutely nothing. It is a crisis alright, but back to the original topic, racing was going on thousands of years before punting and if punting stopped dead would horse racing stop? of course not! the biggest problem is NO ONE wants to work together this game is rife with jealousy and assholes, and in among it all are really decent people, racing has always been about prestige rather than money and somewhere along the way it is all business now but no one wants to risk their patch to make a difference.

 

That's really helpful....NOT. What do you propose we do?

[Midget 4,489]

JT racing in NZ is like the Welsh rugby team, it's down on its luck, fallen on hard times if you like, and we keep being reassured it's turned the corner and doing ok....but it's not....the evidence proves that.

The challenge is can we make it great again, and how do we go about resurrecting it ?

You could wave the white flag I suppose, or you reinvent, you develop a 5 year plan, then a 10 year, and a 20 year plan.

You do it in a transparent way, and you offer all participants the option to buy in to the dream, or piss off.

One thing you absolutely must get right though is your leadership team, no one will embrace your dream if you don't have a talented, charismatic and visionary leader, someone with soaring rhetoric who can mobilize the troops and sell the dream.

That's out initial challenge, to find a leader the industry wants to follow, and it could be anyone, even you, who knows ? but let's at least agree that we should try to find our " Watt Tyler " to lead us from the darkness into the light.

[Berri 2,131]

10 hours ago, Midget said:

Have a pick at this, and patch in some gambling data if you wish.

I rather like the correlation between stakes and participation.

Questions to Get Answered

 

To complete the process it would be good to get these are figures for the same years above. Can anyone help?

 

1. For Saturday races, what is the on and off course betting turnover per race;
2. the number of owners who owned at least 50% of a horse;
3. The stakes of the major Gp1, 2 and 3 races year by year
4. The cost to train a horse per day
5. The stakes of Saturday races under their respective grades:
6. The cost of salaries for the TAB, RIB and NZTR;
7. The number of people “officially” employed in the horse industry;

[Leggy 4,093]

You're the data queen Berri. What are the answers?

[Turny 1,224]

Of course the Punters are King - real simple No Punters  No game to put on - if you think otherwise you are Dinosaurs living a false hope - you deserve the outcome - Punters will have other choices and move on 

 

 

[Midget 4,489]

10 minutes ago, turny said:

Of course the Punters are King - real simple No Punters  No game to put on - if you think otherwise you are Dinosaurs living a false hope - you deserve the outcome - Punters will have other choices and move on 

 

 

We sort of agree on that but seeing as you've lit the fire let me throw some petrol on it.

Punters are largely addicted, they can't let go even if they wanted to, and that's why they cross over to any roll of the dice that'll give them a rush, like pokies.

That type of punter is already locked in to the system, we've just got to keep giving them something, make that anything, to have a bet on.

The target market is the discretionary punter, he who grazes the global opportunities, he who only bets when the odds are in his favour, when the environmental factors are under his control or agreeable to him.....there's your challenge....how do you entice the non addicted global punter to come play here in NZ or to use our agency as a conduit to his world gambling activities ?

Maybe it's a better product, or better service, or better odds, and each of those options has its own challenges when you've got a monolithic under performing entity running the show, or at least accepting your bets and trying to rape their existing clients because they think you're all stupid, and addicted, and consequently they can't change their ways, or rid themselves of their superiority complexes, and the way they themselves think.

Only one thing can change the way they think IMO, and it's called competition. History proves me correct on that point, as any deregulated industry demonstrates, and for the thick bastards out there I'll give you two examples, airlines and liquor outlets.

Deregulate, introduce competition, and lower your applicable taxes and the industry will thrive....history proves that's true.

 

[Turny 1,224]

Midget + u you are probably close but No Punters No game - the reality Punters have no say other than there feet - they will walk to another venue - you are industry - enlist change get aggressive and stand up to your masters - Punters can only walk and they will

[Midget 4,489]

Turny, I'll answer you and hope the other idiot finds a village somewhere else.

I am not arguing about the importance of punters, hence I started the original thread, but it's now time we explored exactly what punters want, then we can advance some ideas to head office.

Let me ask you for help, and your priorities.

1. Better tracks ?

2. Bigger fields ?

3. New products ?

4. Lower take outs ( = lower taxes ) ?

5. Betting in the running ?

6. Exchange betting ?

7. Credit betting ?

8. More information ?

9. Data, like sectionals ?

10. Better resource based websites provided by the codes ?

11. More integrity and accountability from trainers and jockeys ?

Off you go now, tell me more, those of you say this is where the problems and solutions begin and end, tell us what your wish list entails.

[Leggy 4,093]

Definitely 1 and 4, maybe sme of the others as well,  but that is still grossly insufficient and I doubt will solve the problems.

[Turny 1,224]

1 to 10 plus better fixed odds - realistic options - Australian type Bookmakers on track - and better racing just like Australia - not weekly bush meetings at Rukaka, Rotorua, Riccarton and New Plymouth 

[Leggy 4,093]

There's an uncanny correlation with Brexit nO?

 

 

[barryb 2,064]

 

4,8,6 in that order Midget would turn it around for most punters. Although on the exchange front I am not that sure the average NZ punter would grasp it that well in the short-med term.

Plenty cant even fill out a jetbet slip so understanding how an exchange works and using that might be a road too far.

The TAB could be one of the first to adopt a revolutionary product like 2 friends of mine have created.

http://promo.rewardbet.com/

 

 

[Midget 4,489]

I'd love it if the TAB would facilitate a transaction whereby I laid horses I thought had no chance, the TAB offered the platform for someone to bet against me, in other words to back the horse at the odds I've offered, and the TAB can take 3% of all my winning bets as a commission.

How hard would that be ? and for what it's worth I cannot see how I couldn't do a better job, and offer better odds, than the current crew in Petone ( but they have models they must abide by so that's not a personal criticism of the TAB bookies ).

That is a huge growth opportunity, and we used to do it here, it was known as Losers Get Laid.

Bring it back I say, it was great fun.

[Bimbo 734]

3 minutes ago, Midget said:

I'd love it if the TAB would facilitate a transaction whereby I laid horses I thought had no chance, the TAB offered the platform for someone to bet against me, in other words to back the horse at the odds I've offered, and the TAB can take 3% of all my winning bets as a commission.

How hard would that be ? and for what it's worth I cannot see how I couldn't do a better job, and offer better odds, than the current crew in Petone ( but they have models they must abide by so that's not a personal criticism of the TAB bookies ).

That is a huge growth opportunity, and we used to do it here, it was known as Losers Get Laid.

Bring it back I say, it was great fun.

Betfair!

[The Crucible 632]

9 minutes ago, Midget said:

That is a huge growth opportunity, and we used to do it here, it was known as Losers Get Laid.

Bring it back I say, it was great fun.

It's been running on the Tips & Competition forum for a while now.  Latest round kicked off last weekend.

[Guest]

Need to get the young to start punting or eventually the whole game will die a natural death.

Dont see too many young ones on courses apart from the ones involved with the horses and they don't bet a lot,as no surplus from their meagre pay.

 

[gubellini 4,004]

TAB should adopt a Bet fair type option. I find it far easier to pick a loser than a winner! This time of the year false favourites abound on our heavy tracks.

[barryb 2,064]

5 hours ago, gubellini said:

TAB should adopt a Bet fair type option. I find it far easier to pick a loser than a winner! This time of the year false favourites abound on our heavy tracks.

Very easy to pick losers Gub, but making money doing so is another story. Having done significant laying over the years across UK and Aus I can tell you it is very painful laying winners compared to backing losers. Firstly dealing with the psychological aspect of laying a winner and thinking how the hell did that win, when it happens 2 or 3 times in a row. Recovering from  a losing run laying is a hell of a lot harder than backing. Laying manually is a fools paradise unless you are exceptionally skilled at spotting early steamers so you can back them to become green.

Your comment about false favs applies to anytime of the year, statistics show there isn't that much difference between track conditions.

Exactly the same as apprentice claims and the value of them are overstated in winter.

[Trump 2,741]

It seems that most of us agree that it's far more enjoyable to be " wealthy and driving a MK 1 Zephyr" than to be "poor and driving a MK 1 Zephyr". The task to increase revenue is to (a) Provide the right betting environment (b) Attract the bigger punters. In today's world, the whales do not go to the track. They are very select on what they bet on (no shit tracks or races etc) but when they do, they bet big. Australia's biggest punter turns over about $1billion per year I believe and employs about 200 staff. I personally know of one person who sold his punting business for serious cash. He now bets during the big carnivals only. But when he does it might be $50k on one race. He now bets more regularly on PGA events in USA and Europe. To give you an idea, he researched and fed golf stats into a program for 2 years, info about every course and player on tour over the previous 10 years - BEFORE he placed a bet ! This is the punter that you should be chasing. They don't go to the races but they get various incentives to bet with Agencies. The NZ TAB I would bet (excuse the pun) would not be in a position to attract these types of punters. The on course bookmaker is a rapidly dying breed in Oz. They are not the answer. I have a son who likes to have a wee flutter on the weekends. He would go the races 2 or 3 times a year. He's just a small punter. If he lost $100 he'd have a hernia for a week! Mostly he has a few bets with Sporting Bet via his iPhone. But if you attract 10,000 + like him, it adds up. I'm sure everyone contributing on this site would agree, the NZ TAB is non competitive and the NZRB and The Racing Minister have no idea how to awaken the tiger. I'm not sure I do either but one thing I do know. If change doesn't come soon and they don't stop pussyfooting around, then it can only slide to the inevitable. Lack of money and direction. Fix those problems and everything else will follow.

[von Smallhaussen 3,226]

58 minutes ago, Trump said:

. But when he does it might be $50k on one race.

would the NZ TAB accept that bet?

[Midget 4,489]

C'mon you lot.

You whine and moan, you said this was "all about the punters ", but you ( mostly ) haven't got a solution or a constructive comment to make.

If I was sitting on my fat arse at head office, in between supping a bit of good Pinot, and my fourth sausage roll, I'd read this thread and roll my eyes, thinking to myself, "fucking whingers and know-alls, they'll always tell you that everything is wrong but they can never tell you how to fix it".

Prove your doubters wrong, let's find a way forward being creative and inspirational.

Here's your first two challenges,

1. Design a great new churn bet.

2. Design a high value aspirational bet.

Go.

[gubellini 4,004]

1. Top five placegetters in a race. Similar to top ten offered on the Melbourne Cup.

2. Pick the race time in a Feature Race. Terminating. If not selected nearest time plus or minus. Would require upgrade of the aged Jet Bet System.

[Racing84 254]

A high priority for attracting new punters (and keeping them interested) revolves around integrity in my opinion.

Someone who is newly involved in the game needs to have confidence in what they are investing (gambling) on.  From inaccurate / incomplete information in publications and TABs / the TAB website, to bizarre outcomes from enquiries on the race-track, dogs not chasing and not being put out, drivers clearly not giving their horse a chance to win, tracks coming up a Slow 8 in the morning when it's clearly a Heavy 11, gates not opening properly, horses entered in jumping race who cannot jump - all of these things have the potential to scare off new participants.

 

As for the TAB, they might like to run some promotions around attracting new accounts like the Aussie bookmakers do, e.g. set up a TAB account and deposit $200, and we'll match it with $200.  The TAB do very little to attract (and then retain) customers.  The TAB almost gives the impression that you should feel privileged to be betting with them, not the other way around.

 

Head office costs for sure need to be looked at.  Snouts in the trough - too many ineffective people being paid way too much.  Do a crap job for 2 years then move on.  It should be a prerequisite for these people to have an interest / understanding / experience in the racing industry before they can be employed.

 

As a general thought, do industry participants have an unreasonable expectation that you should be able to race a horse, whether it be as an owner or trainer, and make money?  Sure, some should, but there are not many industries where all participants are financially successful.  Not every owner or trainer is going to make money.

 

Finally, there have been a few comments on here about money spent on marketing to try and get people on-course being a waste.  I respectfully disagree.  For racing to stand out from other sports, the thrill and experience of going to the track needs to be the point of difference.  When watching racing at home, the experience is competing with any number of things - Super Rugby, NRL, NBA, MLB, Home & Away, Coronation Street, Game of Thrones.  For racing to thrive again, and be more than just another commodity, it needs to find a competitive advantage and for me that has to be about getting people to enjoy the thrill of going to the track.  I think the focus of WHO we should be trying to attract could probably change - the nice, comfortable areas of a race course tending to be reserved for fat cats and corporates who spend $1 e/w on each race, rather than accommodating the serious punter.

 

[barryb 2,064]

New bet options.

Winning horse - Odds or Evens

Winning horse - over or under say 56kg

Correct finishing order of all runners in main race on a Saturday. Would create a massive jackpot.

[von Smallhaussen 3,226]

what do the supermarkets do each week to get customers in ? - They have loss leaders!

The TAB needs a loss leader ie: an easy attractive bet with buggar all take out.