RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
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Which sector is the most important in racing...

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Interesting topic this so well done Midgie for intro. Many of the comments have been made in one form or another over the many years cafers have been freely offering their views. For me, they are all important parts of a machine and as we all know, a V8 Supercar can successful race Bathurst for most of the day only to fail in the final lap due to a faulty 50cent part ( minor mechanical but dire consequences ) or by running out of petrol (human error?). So, in relation to the question posed Midgie, "All" sections of this Industry have a role to play. Which is the "most" important - in the 21st Century?? Well for mine, betting, wagering or whatever you want to call it. It funds the attraction, the Infrastructure required to host the events. It provides the prizemoney , the Administration, etc, etc. Without $ there is no Racing Industry. The Breeders in NZ can still breed and provide for International markets (in this scenario - goodbye small breeder). The Trainers can go to Oz as can Jocks and stable staff. The Owners can still race horses in Australia. So in my humble opinion, the whole success or failure of the racing Industry in NZ (as it is with any business) is contained in just 2 main areas. Money and Management. So what's the problem in NZ?? Lack of money and a perceived lack of proper Management or direction. NZ needs to raise more revenue to spend where it's needed and this can only come from the betting. Everything else follows. But what's the point of raising all this cash if there are fuckwits handling it? (Remember the Winston handout that was blown on a few races for a few years ? What did that achieve?). I rest my case.

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What's your position on stake money being given preferentially to females Trump, and let's be frank anything skewed towards females is just a concession to and subsidisation of the breeders racing costs.

Inverting that slightly, how would you feel if NZTR used industry money to subsidise hobby breeder's service fees to increase the foal crop ?

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1 hour ago, Berri said:

I've given the answer. Either close racing and/ or open up betting to an AirB&B model as described in my previous post. Thought that was obvious

So, you agree that the funding has to come from the punters whatever model you use you extract it?

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13 hours ago, Ohokaman said:

We are talking about the NZ Racing Industry ( and survival of same ) here Tom.

Without the Owners of the horses, and those that train them and ride them...et al....the punter has nothing.

Using Hesi's retail analogy, if you walk into a shop, and there's nothing on the shelf....what are you going to buy.....??

 

 

You are dreaming, punters don't need NZ Racing. NZ Racing needs the punter. Owners, Trainers, Jockeys and all the rest of the hanger on's need the punter. It begins, and it ends with the punter, everyone else clings to the punters shirt tails. Its pathetic attitudes such as displayed in this thread that is the root cause of racing's demise in this country. The punter has been abused and used, and because of this we see the decline in racing in general throughout NZ. As turnovers on racing spiral downwards so do's stake money. Now that stake money is so low, we now have Owners, Trainers, Jockeys, all claiming how important you are. Well let me remind you, you mean nothing, the punter does not need you, the TAB does not need you, NZ does not need you, but you shore as hell need the punter.

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Too much money is used by the excess numbers of management running NZ Thoroughbred racings..there needs to be a culling of these excessive numbers of management to reduce the Cost of running racing.

..the money saved will fund racing venue upgrades and the rest goes into Stakes

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8 minutes ago, von Smallhaussen said:

am I correct in saying that the demise of NZ racing coincided with the introduction ( think costs involved ) of trackside TV?

Funny you should say that, I've always thought Trackside from your own lounge is a far superior experience than 99% of race days.

You'd argue though that Trackside should increase betting and churn.....well as long as you don't listen to their tips ( most of them ) 

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12 minutes ago, von Smallhaussen said:

am I correct in saying that the demise of NZ racing coincided with the introduction ( think costs involved ) of trackside TV?

a coincidence only.,

the demise of racing has occured when the 'empire' of corporate suits began evolving..the past dozen years or more.

the more positions that were created, the more foolish policy started to burgeon and conflict it's self

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Currently, I believe the owner is the most important - because of the mismanagement at the top. These sucker owners are currently the ones keeping the industry going - by giving the trainers an income and the clubs some horses to fill the card. Everyone agrees owning a horse is currently a dud investment, no owner wants rewarded for owning a slow horse but it must be demoralising when you get a good one and still lose money. So thanks to those owners that are sticking in there.

Ideally, the punter should be the most important. If they were looked after - then stake money would rise (barring mismanagement) then with decent stake money the owners would be easier to find. Then trainers would be able to lift their rates.

vicious cycle   

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11 minutes ago, Midget said:

Funny you should say that, I've always thought Trackside from your own lounge is a far superior experience than 99% of race days.

You'd argue though that Trackside should increase betting and churn.....well as long as you don't listen to their tips ( most of them ) 

the advent of televised racing has enabled the punter to observe 'form' and discerne it so as to've produced a far greater confidence into their punting that has increased turnover.

it's complimented the oncourse turnover and been very beneficial

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18 minutes ago, Midget said:

Do you think the punters are important then Aquaman ? :)

Of course. So much so that without them there is nothing.

I have been involved in the racing industry as an owner, a trainer, a breeder. I have 6 Gp 1's. I have raced a TB, a pacer, and bred many Greyhounds. I have been actively involved since the days of Grey Way, in fact i used to load him onto the Rangitira on his many forays to the Nth Island. In all my involvement, i have never doubted the importance of the punter. He is the one that pays for everything. The administration, the RIU, the TAB, the Trainers, the feed merchants, the Vets, the Farriers, the transport people, the Breeders, everything. So yes, i do think the punters are important, and i appreciate them for paying all the costs for putting on the show, and providing all involved with an income.

Sadly, the punter in NZ has been used and abused by those in power, and we are now witnessing the demise of a once great industry as those punters seek better service elsewhere, and we here are arguing over whose most important. The advent of the internet has now given the punter the choice, and we have continued to shaft the punter with ever increasing takeout rates. It will not be long for the last one to turn out the lights. The NZ TAB do not need NZ Racing. The NZ punter do not need NZ racing. The NZ punter is very happy to spend his money on Australian racing.

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5 minutes ago, hesi said:

NZTR revenue in 2015 was 79.75 mil, most of it from the RB, and they dished out 71.6 mil to racing clubs, so you couldn't call them a significant drain on the industry.

NZRB is where it is top heavy

both the NZRB and NZTR could withstand major downsizing..especially now that the revenue streams are established.

their number [excessive] might've been needed..but now that the revenue streams are established and consolidated, no longer do we need their excessive numbers.

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Fact is punters have to be the main focus!

Unless of course 3, 1 and 4 are happy to win ribbons - there is no choice in this.

Ideally all working together, unfortunately the "privileged" (not all) breeders have had too much say.

I also believe that the TAB has let most down by their lack of vision and investment in technology to keep abreast of the opposition.

Here's one step that would literally increase turnover by a staggering amount - EXIT button

This happened to me at Alex Park TAB(has the highest turnover most months of any TAB) a few months back.

I was placing a fixed odds bet $220 one minute before the mobile started, the guy next to me put a 4,000FO bet on - the usual delay in bet approval. I then said "just put it on the tote as the race will be on soon". The reply came back "there is no way of accessing the machine until the bet approval comes through". So here I was with no approval coming in time for the race, same with the guy next to me who also wanted to put it on the tote but was standing next to a frozen machine. We both had around 3 other punters behind us that missed their bets.

I then got talking to the manager, and asked him how often this would happen - his reply - MOST RACES when the trots are on. He is so frustrated with the current situation.

This has also happened multiple times when betting via the computer/iphone.

Most bets are placed close to the "off" so if you multiply this problem out how much is lost in this "frozen environment".

If you had an exit button to switch to tote - seriously how much extra turnover would be achieved.

This JETBET system may have been ok when we were all using slide rulers - and this is only one of the many issues.

 

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1 hour ago, von Smallhaussen said:

From the discussions here - what is wrong with declaring that punters, owners, trainers, jockeys, trackriders, stablehands etc. etc. are all equally important in this industry and all should be treated as such?

Everything is wrong with treating them all equally.  In my opinion that is PC BS.  We need to focus on the key constraints to growth.  The first focus is arresting the decline in waging directly related to racing.  Therefore the first stakeholder to focus on is the punter.  The owner only pays for the direct costs of racing a horse - it isn't revenue from the core NZRB business.

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hedley in 1986 champion Irish trainer Jim Bolger stated in his Moyglare Dinner speech that the Irish Racing Board was "not fighting a losing battle, it has thrown in the towel." Fast forward to 2016 and our Racing Board has done the same. They don't even make a pretence of turning racing around. They are content to draw their manifestly bloated salaries.

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41 minutes ago, hedley said:

a coincidence only.,

the demise of racing has occured when the 'empire' of corporate suits began evolving..the past dozen years or more.

the more positions that were created, the more foolish policy started to burgeon and conflict it's self

Hedley, it began 50 years ago.

From 1965: "Racing club's prosperity depended on totalisator turnover as well as the smaller amount they received from the TAB. Eighty per cent of this money, in theory, was expected to be returned in stake money. But stakes had not kept pace with costs and ownership was also becoming more expensive and less attractive. Likewise, the TAB's costs were increasing faster than it's profit, which meant less money to the clubs."

History also shows us that the one sector that has struggled the most and for the longest is actually the clubs themselves.    

 

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14 minutes ago, rdytdy said:

Hedley, it began 50 years ago.

From 1965: "Racing club's prosperity depended on totalisator turnover as well as the smaller amount they received from the TAB. Eighty per cent of this money, in theory, was expected to be returned in stake money. But stakes had not kept pace with costs and ownership was also becoming more expensive and less attractive. Likewise, the TAB's costs were increasing faster than it's profit, which meant less money to the clubs."

History also shows us that the one sector that has struggled the most and for the longest is actually the clubs themselves.    

 

My late uncle stated in the early 80s that the games was on the slide, his reasons paid officials, in the early days everything was voluntary, now everyone wants a bite of the cherry, right down to the gate attendant.

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3 hours ago, aquaman said:

You are dreaming, punters don't need NZ Racing. NZ Racing needs the punter. Owners, Trainers, Jockeys and all the rest of the hanger on's need the punter. It begins, and it ends with the punter, everyone else clings to the punters shirt tails. Its pathetic attitudes such as displayed in this thread that is the root cause of racing's demise in this country. The punter has been abused and used, and because of this we see the decline in racing in general throughout NZ. As turnovers on racing spiral downwards so do's stake money. Now that stake money is so low, we now have Owners, Trainers, Jockeys, all claiming how important you are. Well let me remind you, you mean nothing, the punter does not need you, the TAB does not need you, NZ does not need you, but you shore as hell need the punter.

"Owners, Trainers, Jockeys and all the rest of the hanger's on....  You mean nothing...??? "  Are you for real....???

The punter only becomes important while all these "hanger's on" bother to love what they do, spend the money, pay the bills, getting up at all hours,putting in the long ones, in all weathers just to provide a local racing product for them to wager on in NZ.

The decline has been largely due to management incompetence and years of hiring the wrong people who then make the wrong decisions. Until there are changes, starting at the top, and ideally with more Government interest and involvement, things are unlikely to improve. Of course the punter is important, they have always had other options to spend their hard earned on, but if we want a better industry, viable for all, then the NZ product needs a radical overhaul at all levels to keep them interested.

 

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At last someone has mentioned GOVERNMENT!!

They have bled the racing industry racing for decades taking out tax rates without doing anything about nurturing the golden goose who provides that income for them. NZ had tax rates double to what they had in Australia. In Queensland for example back in 1982 Russ Hinze was the Queensland racing Minister and the Queensland Government reported that track and training facilities worth more than $21 million had been started or approval had been given over the past twelve months. We still see today that Government assistance and support across the ditch providing millions of funding for various racing projects. Successive NZ Governments have just sat back and kept taking without doing anything. 

   

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