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Inbreeding to Danehill

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There has been some discussion on inbreeding to Danehill where the pedigree buffs are saying that one pattern is useless and one pattern is successful.

What does this mean and how are these patterns formulated in the pedigree? I would be grateful if some of you wise people could inform me

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Danehill inbreeding in a pedigree through sons has been unsuccessful.

Danehill inbreeding in a pedigree through a son and a daughter has been more successful but the number are still not at the top level of other various inbreeding through various sires out there.

While you get some pedigree buff telling you about all the successful results, they don't tell you about the long list of failures.

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pedigree analysis is way deeper than simply inbreeding to a particular horse,  WAY DEEPER.   Most people and computer pedigree systems will look at the ancestry of a horse and identify duplications in the family tree in certain generations. eg. inbred to Danehill    4 x 3 or  3 x 5 etc. and I agree when duplicating Danehill in this way these figures don't stack up.

The yearling below is in bred to Danehill through two sons in the 3rd generation,  By it self this pattern dosen't interest me at all. 

 

lot.jpg

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Most people believe that doubling Danzig dosen't work and the stats are there that it doesn't, yet I love this pedigree, Fastest 2 year old Frankie has ever ridden.

Shalaa.jpg

 

 

This pedigree defies many theories,  has nothing to do with sex balancing. I always ask the question, "were are the duplications in the mare ? and were are the duplications in the stallion ?  

 

 

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This horse to my mind the most successful inbred to Danehill.   Love this pedigree

Guelph.jpg

 

Lomond's 5th dam is none other than Mr Prospector's 4th dam,  so the male line of this mare has been duplicated in the female side of the stallion through a common female ancestor

The duplication of Danehill  here gives the pedigree a beautiful mirror image

Again ask   "were are the duplications in the mare, ?  were are the duplications in the stallion?

 

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38 minutes ago, Phar Lap Fan said:

Guelph's success probably has lot to do with the quality of the sire and the dam (over generations) also.

Agree with Guelph's female family being full of quality. Exceed and Excel is known for producing two year olds and with 1456 foals that have been to the races he has only produced 10 Group One winners.  I would like better odds than that for my $ 110 K   I believe that the female family of Lomond is the source of these early two year olds so finding a mare that taps into that would be high on my list.  

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The report on inbreeding to Danehill (foaled in 1986) reads like this.

Sex

Named
Foals

Rnrs

Runs

Wnrs

Wnrs/
Rnrs

Wins

GW

G1W

SW

 

 

Colts

1287

882

10370

427

48.4%

1066

4

2

14

 

 

Fillies

1238

795

7754

324

40.8%

730

12

1

23

 

 

Total

2525

1677

18124

751

44.8%

1796

16

3

37

 

 

Danehill as a stallion SW to runners = 16.7%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to named foals= 1.4%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to runners = 2.2%

Savabeel (leading NZ sire) SW to runners= 9.4%

Street Cry (leading Aus sire) SW to runners= 8.0%

My theory on nicks is that a certain type of stallion ( horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability) compliment a certain type of mare (horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability). 

Breed an athlete.

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totally agree with you Nasrullah about type,   I love the horse, more importantly, I love looking at a beautiful horse, but what is type, can you describe this, what stats do you have that the best looking horses win the best races ?   just go to the winners stall and you will see they come in all shapes and sizes, So how do we judge type,?  can you tell me what is a good type, David Ellis spends 4-5 million every year and say's he brought the best looking horses. That's 15 to 20 million of other people's money and not too many Group One winners when you look at it over over three or four years.

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Mattski

Sex balanced means when you have a duplication of a stallion eg Danehill as being discussed here , that you have a Danehill stallion on one side of the pedigree and a Danehill mare on the other side. It doesn't matter which side of the pedigree is they are on ( eg. The Danehill stallion could on the sires side or the dams side and visa versa)

Obviously when you back several generations you can get 3-4 or more instances of the same stallion --common with Northern Dancer. Most would say if you have say 4 male lines of ND and say 1 female line it is still sex balanced.

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I don't think that breeding a big heavy stallion with a lot of muscle over a mare that is the same is ideal. Or breeding a small stallion to a small mare.

I can't say I knew any of the Vice Regal mares that produced Group One winners by Zabeel. However if you described Zabeel as a 1600m to 2000m horse (sire Sir Tristram was more of a 2000 to 2400 horse), and the Vice Regal mares at my understanding were 1200 to 1400 m sprinting mares (obviously some where unraced)

I do think that modern day stayers have more speed than the Derby and Cup horses of the past so making a comparison over time will vary.

In regard to what a syndicator spends I don't think this can be commented on fully as a regard to type and I will give a few of examples.

Yearlings sales are exactly that yearling sales of a horse born anywhere from say mid August to late November. The yearling product can sometimes be behind the rest by way of bad luck, a mare not milking well or many other reasons. Yearlings can change hugely until they mature and some are simply far ahead at a certain stage.

Many horses have a conformation or x-ray issue. Some prevent a licenced syndicator from buying them. Not all conformation or x-ray issues stop a horse from running.

A yearling that is destined to be an early maturing precocious sprinting 2yo will look different to a classic 3yo.

And finally while raw in its form and basic I don't see anything wrong as a starter by comparing a sires or sirelines success over a broodmare sire.

If it was a mare by a Danehill sireline then going to a sire by the Danehill sire line clearly shows very poor results.

 

 

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From this discussion I believe that the consensus is that breeding to Danehill on the sire line of both the mare and the stallion is the unsuccessful pattern the pedigree provided by Swynford has the the duplication on the sire line and the mare line through a S & D. However am I right in believing that this is another form of the Northern Dancer Mr Prospector nic which provides balanced  line breeding to Native Dancer.

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 I really like this horses pedigree. That's how I would in breed to Danehill. It's not just him, its the whole pedigree that counts. I always start with the male line of the 1st dam when looking at pedigrees.  And ask  "has this been duplicated in the stallion and if so where.?

And then look at the second dam and ask the same question.

 

 

 

med.jpg

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On 6/29/2016 at 7:21 PM, Nasrullah said:

I don't think that breeding a big heavy stallion with a lot of muscle over a mare that is the same is ideal. Or breeding a small stallion to a small mare.

I can't say I knew any of the Vice Regal mares that produced Group One winners by Zabeel. However if you described Zabeel as a 1600m to 2000m horse (sire Sir Tristram was more of a 2000 to 2400 horse), and the Vice Regal mares at my understanding were 1200 to 1400 m sprinting mares (obviously some where unraced)

 

 

 

Grand Echezeaux was a Zabeel out of Vice Regal mare 

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Always a big believer in breeding to the strengths of the pedigree - Sprinter to Sprinter - Stayer to Stayer. A good miler could potentially appease both..However, if you have a long mare it might be worth tidying the type up and that is where you might breed to strength or if your mare is really short coupled then you would look for something with a bit more scope. Also taking into consideration the maturity of the family and their racing age. At the end of the day, the nicks and crosses become relevant after the event but all you can do is make judgement of the information put in front of you. The great mysteries of our breeding game!

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Always a big believer in breeding to the strengths of the pedigree - Sprinter to Sprinter - Stayer to Stayer. A good miler could potentially appease both..However, if you have a long mare it might be worth tidying the type up and that is where you might breed to strength or if your mare is really short coupled then you would look for something with a bit more scope. Also taking into consideration the maturity of the family and their racing age. At the end of the day, the nicks and crosses become relevant after the event but all you can do is make judgement of the information put in front of you. The great mysteries of our breeding game!

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Do you guys think the stats (in general) for inbreeding to Zabeel / Sir T would be equally poor (presuming not sex balanced).
 
Meaning in general if you have a Zabeel line mare you wouldn't send her to a Zabeel line stallion?  Thanks
 
 
 
SOUND PROPOSITION ped_i.gif ped_p.gif (NZ) br. G, 2011 {9-a} DP = 0-1-3-0-0 (4) DI = 1.67   CD = 0.25 - 11 Starts, 4 Wins, 1 Places, 2 Shows Career Earnings: NZ$258,064
 
        Owner: C & J Tobin, T & S Tobin, R & I Trayling
    Breeder: Mrs S E & T G Tobin & R Trayling
  Winnings: 11 Starts: 4 - 1 - 2, NZ$258,064

1st:
2016 Manco Easter Stakes (NZ-G1,1600m,Ellerslie)

Thru 23Apr16
 
(CLOSE)
SAVABEEL (AUS)
br. 2001
ZABEEL (NZ)
b. 1986
SIR TRISTRAM (IRE)
b. 1971
  SIR IVOR (USA)
b. 1965 [IC]
  SIR GAYLORD (USA) br. 1959 [IC]
ATTICA (USA) ch. 1953 *
ISOLT (USA)
b. 1961
ROUND TABLE (USA) br. 1954
ALL MY EYE (GB) ch. 1954 LADY GISELLE (FR)
b. 1982 NUREYEV (USA)
b. 1977 [C] NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC] SPECIAL (USA) b. 1969 * VALDERNA (FR)
b. 1972 VAL DE LOIR (FR) b. 1959 DERNA (FR) b. 1961 SAVANNAH SUCCESS (AUS)
br. 1995 SUCCESS EXPRESS (USA)
dkb/br. 1985 HOLD YOUR PEACE (USA)
b. 1969 SPEAK JOHN (USA) b. 1958 [BI] BLUE MOON (USA) b. 1948 AU PRINTEMPS (USA)
b. 1979 DANCING CHAMP (USA) b. 1972 LORGNETTE (IRE) ch. 1964 ALMA MATER (AUS)
br. 1988 SEMIPALATINSK (USA)
b. 1978 NODOUBLE (USA) ch. 1965 [CP] SCHOOL BOARD (USA) b. 1968 SWEETIE (AUS)
br. 1981 WITHOUT FEAR (FR) b. 1967 VIRGINIA (AUS) br. 1972 EBONY BABE (NZ)
dkb/br. 2003 EBONY GROSVE (NZ)
br. 1993 GROSVENOR (NZ)
b. 1979 SIR TRISTRAM (IRE)
b. 1971   SIR IVOR (USA)   b. 1965 [IC] ISOLT (USA) b. 1961 MY TRICIA (NZ)
br. 1974 HERMES (GB) b. 1963 GAY POSS (NZ) ch. 1966 DUSKY ROSA (AUS)
br. 1980 INDIAN CONQUEST (IRE)
blk. 1958 TAMERLANE (GB) b. 1952 NOKOMIS (GB) br. 1949 SURPRISING (NZ)
b. 1968 RIBOTLIGHT (GB) b. 1959 SURPRISE ENDING (NZ) b. 1950 REGALETTA (NZ)
br. 1991 VICE REGAL (NZ)
br. 1973 BISMARK (GB)
b. 1967 RELIC (USA) blk. 1945 GUN PLAY (GB) b. 1959 KIND REGARDS (NZ)
br. 1966 LE FILOU (FR) b. 1946 WAFT (NZ) ch. 1956 LADY KATE (NZ)
br. 1984 IVORY HUNTER (USA)
b. 1974 SIR IVOR (USA)   b. 1965 [IC] STYLE (USA) ch. 1965 COURT MANNER (AUS)
b. 1977 KNIGHTLY MANNER (USA) b. 1961 BAY BEAUTY (NZ) b. 1967

 

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Well pointed out Mattski.

Sound Proposition for those of you who cannot read above is by Savabeel.

Sound Proposition is out of an Ebony Grosve mare. Ebony Grosve is by Grosvenor. Grosvenor is by Sir Tristram.

As pointed in the statistics Danzig over Danzig or Danehill over Danehill has had poor results.

My main point is that breeding similar types of Danehill sire lines that are heavy and well muscled over other Danehill lines broodmares that are heavy and well muscled does not work.

Breeding an athletic horse that is balanced has worked.

Not all lines of Northern Dancer are the same on type. Danzig and Danehill were very different types to Sadlers Wells and Galileo.

Savabeel and say Lonhro are quite different to Sir Tristram. They had much more speed.

Perhaps that is why the Sound Proposition mating has worked.

 

 

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