rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted April 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Trump said: Pag Asa - ? Bonecrusher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted April 25, 2016 Yes Ted - I missed it was previously mentioned so changed my post just before you got in ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,923 Report post Posted April 25, 2016 Most stallions leave at least one good horse. The trick is to find that one rather than get a duffer sired by a top horse! rdytdy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted April 25, 2016 Cassock - Great Sensation gubellini 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Interesting and enjoyable thread. As someone who spends countless hours studying stallion performance I can tell you that it's somewhat of a misnomer that "they all get at least one good one". Many, many stallions fail to get even one. A recent article of mine published in the January issue of Bluebloods magazine examined the effect and merit of shuttle sires in Australia. Now to be a shuttle stallion requires high levels of performance, pedigree and stallion value. Many of the stallions quoted above were deficient in one area or another. Of this shuttle group which numbered 265 (covering the entire shutttle era to 2010) an astonishing 40 never left a single stakeswinner let alone a "good horse". Some of these such as Grandera and Soviet Lad produced over 200 named foals. Another 94 managed less than 3 stakeswinners and most of these stakeswinners were mere Listed performers. Two of this group including Monde Bleu sired over 430 named foals ! I made a comparison with a comparable group of domestic stallions and used the criteria of a service fee of $5,000 or more at some point in their lives. A jaw-dropping 281 stallions from this group also failed to leave a single stakeswinner ! Another 151 produced less than 4 stakeswinners. I love the anecdotes of otherwise insignificant stallions who leave a good one but the reality is there are myriads who don't even manage that. Those that can lay their hands on old stallion registers and sires annuals will tell you what a sobering experience it is to go back through the years and note all those stallions who have simply vanished from the breed entirely. If you want a copy of the study please PM me privately. BTW the worst stallion in recent decades in Australia was the great CHARIOT (by Bletchingly out of a Zamazaan mare and a full brother to Mercury, who stood at Pukekawa) who produced 450 foals without leaving a single stakeswinner. Can you guess who was the NZ equivalent ? Cubes, Lloyd Vivian, Breeder and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbow 50 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 19 minutes ago, Peter Jenkins said: Interesting and enjoyable thread. As someone who spends countless hours studying stallion performance I can tell you that it's somewhat of a misnomer that "they all get at least one good one". Many, many stallions fail to get even one. A recent article of mine published in the January issue of Bluebloods magazine examined the effect and merit of shuttle sires in Australia. Now to be a shuttle stallion requires high levels of performance, pedigree and stallion value. Many of the stallions quoted above were deficient in one area or another. Of this shuttle group which numbered 265 (covering the entire shutttle era to 2010) an astonishing 40 never left a single stakeswinner let alone a "good horse". Some of these such as Grandera and Soviet Lad produced over 200 named foals. Another 94 managed less than 3 stakeswinners and most of these stakeswinners were mere Listed performers. Two of this group including Monde Bleu sired over 430 named foals ! I made a comparison with a comparable group of domestic stallions and used the criteria of a service fee of $5,000 or more at some point in their lives. A jaw-dropping 281 stallions from this group also failed to leave a single stakeswinner ! Another 151 produced less than 4 stakeswinners. I love the anecdotes of otherwise insignificant stallions who leave a good one but the reality is there are myriads who don't even manage that. Those that can lay their hands on old stallion registers and sires annuals will tell you what a sobering experience it is to go back through the years and note all those stallions who have simply vanished from the breed entirely. If you want a copy of the study please PM me privately. BTW the worst stallion in recent decades in Australia was the great CHARIOT (by Bletchingly out of a Zamazaan mare and a full brother to Mercury, who stood at Pukekawa) who produced 450 foals without leaving a single stakeswinner. Can you guess who was the NZ equivalent ? i had the misfortune to have one by bijou d'inde ten plus years ago i rekon he'd qualify didnt have 450 foals though ...died in turkey 2010 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Didn't Soviet Lad produce STARCRAFT ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 A shocker alright elbow, 324 foals without a SW and the current leader - any better (worse) candidates ? elbow 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 1 minute ago, Trump said: Didn't Soviet Lad produce STARCRAFT ? That was Soviet Star, Trump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,923 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Minnamour did not leave many foals but had very few winners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, gubellini said: Minnamour did not leave many foals but had very few winners. Certainly a minimalist that MINNAMOUR ! Did leave one stakeswinner from 98 foals - Minnawai who won the time-honoured 1ZH Tea Aroha Guineas trial (on a bog wet track if I recall correctly), beating El Dufus. I note he also ran 4th in a strong Manawatu Sires Produce field with Young Shaun, Judena and Tiger Jones finishing in the first 3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said: A shocker alright elbow, 324 foals without a SW and the current leader - any better (worse) candidates ? Rebec ? might not of had that many foals though. elbow 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said: A shocker alright elbow, 324 foals without a SW and the current leader - any better (worse) candidates ? Rebec ? might not of had that many foals though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis2 1,078 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 19 hours ago, Lloyd Vivian said: Yes, No mates, I was probably a bit too harsh on One Pound Sterling. I forgot Castletown completely. However, I think you're a bit mistaken about him being Champion Australasian Sire, defeating Sir T! Don't recall him even being Champion NZ Sire, let alone Australasian Champion. What year was that? Good going Lloydie. Your nomination has been mentioned as a possible Stallion of the year. Back to the drawing board I reckon. He ha Lloyd Vivian 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 1 hour ago, von Smallhaussen said: Rebec ? might not of had that many foals though. Good try VS but REBEC was a one-horse wonder leaving Classic Bay, trained by an old associate Brent Lewis at Bulls (in partnership with Merv Andrews I think). He won an Ormond Memorial (Gr3) at the Bay and also a Geelong Cup. Ran in Empire Rose's 1988 Melbourne Cup also. Rebec also left Sandboy, a Des & Kay Fleming('Naki)-bred who won 12 around the traps and Melbeck, a similar sort who won 10. elbow 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 44 minutes ago, Peter Jenkins said: Good try VS but REBEC was a one-horse wonder leaving Classic Bay, trained by an old associate Brent Lewis at Bulls (in partnership with Merv Andrews I think). He won an Ormond Memorial (Gr3) at the Bay and also a Geelong Cup. Ran in Empire Rose's 1988 Melbourne Cup also. Rebec also left Sandboy, a Des & Kay Fleming('Naki)-bred who won 12 around the traps and Melbeck, a similar sort who won 10. Classic Bay - how could I forget. We went to Riccarton for the 2nd and 3rd days of the National meeting in 1988. Went down to the track early on the Thursday morning and Merv was in a tieup with Classic Bay. A soon as he saw Mrs vS he asked "have you got your skullcap?" he wanted Classic Bay worked quietly before the winter cup. A big strong horse he was too. elbow and Cubes 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 PJ what about Karensky? Not sure how many foals he had on the ground though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins 2,120 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Yes, a good candidate Ted. 213 foals without a SW. Bijou d'Inde still leads though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Vivian 742 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 11 hours ago, bazach said: Maybe not even a two horse wonder Lloyd. Regal Band was a very good mare. I responded to this earlier Bazach. There's not too many more that you could mention in the same breath as Uncle Remus and Regal Band. Banderol was not by him, as I corrected myself earlier - he was out of Regal Band. [ I worked with her at Haunui Farm as it happens. ] So 'two horse wonder' isn't too harsh really. Thanks Gubellini for confirmation that One Pound Sterling was not quite as good as Nomates remembers... Bit like that saying..."The older I get - the better I was!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timon 107 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 14 hours ago, von Smallhaussen said: no Sambuk? By no means a 'star', but wasn't Sedgewick the sire of Alwick, one of the most impossibly difficult horses to follow, formline regularly read 00010001 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,923 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Timon Alwick was by Sedgewick. He raced from 2-12. He was owner-trainer by Bill Waterman at Wairoa. His first start was at Wairoa on 6/2/71 ridden by John Panapa. His first win was at Awapuni on 16/6/73 ridden by B.E. Bateup ( Barry or Brian?). He had 28 starts at 5 for 3 wins. At 6 he had a remarkable 42 starts for 4 wins. His last start was at Awapuni on 18/7/81 ridden by Paul Worthington. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazach 133 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Prince Bright? Stood at Wynthorpe alongside the great Copenhagen, but despite some good mares, I can't recall him leaving much. No doubt 'Gubes' will have all the statistics! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 15 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said: Yes, a good candidate Ted. 213 foals without a SW. Bijou d'Inde still leads though. Bijou d'inde was by Cadeaux Genereux the sire of Red Cadeaux gubellini 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gubellini 3,923 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Another couple of shockers. Creese Keekerok Man The Rail Precious Will Pronto 2 Matins Fourkero Drumfire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted April 26, 2016 Honey Crepe Haaji Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...