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GOM

Misleading information

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The Daveyboy topic has been done to death but as usual during the discussion a lot of nonsense was espoused.

There are several comments made that need clarification.

Merv said that  you would have to be stuffed in the head to breed from a bitch that had been treated with therapeutic levels of Testosterone and the chances of success were very small. I remember talking to an Australasian vet some years ago who made the statement that the majority of Australian bitches were being given Laurabolin to suppress  them coming into season and they were successfully bred from, there was no evidence of the steroid having a negative impact. The bitches we raced over the years were generally on Laurabolin and we bread successfully with them I know of many other owners that have bred champions from bitches that had laurabolin as a season suppressant.

      Any bitch that was treated with more than the prescribed dose often fitted into another category where they performed better than they may have without it and resultant pups threw to the natural ability of the bitch not the enhanced version.

   Merv also said that testosterone causes loss of bone density and is probably the cause of broken hocks. Testosterone does not cause loss of bone density in fact it is just the opposite in that when we age and stop producing as much testosterone we then get bone loss. Testosterone is sometimes used to improve bone density. Merv you may be confusing glucorticoids with anabolic steroids. The anabolic steroids like testosterone mean grow bigger. glucorticoids are used for medical conditions and injuries to reduce inflammation and they DO reduce bone density.

Who Knows made the point that male dogs feature more than they should in major races and a lot of trainers have a high ratio of male dogs. That is correct but nothing to do with administration of steroids. If I was a public trainer I would race male dogs only as it is no longer legal to supress the season in bitches, you have a nightmare managing bitches that may come into season six monthly, not only from the time out of racing but the effect of in season bitches in a mixed kennel. Far easier to train the males.

       

 

 

 

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The Daveyboy topic has been done to death but as usual during the discussion a lot of nonsense was espoused.

There are several comments made that need clarification.

Merv said that  you would have to be stuffed in the head to breed from a bitch that had been treated with therapeutic levels of Testosterone and the chances of success were very small. I remember talking to an Australasian vet some years ago who made the statement that the majority of Australian bitches were being given Laurabolin to suppress  them coming into season and they were successfully bred from, there was no evidence of the steroid having a negative impact. The bitches we raced over the years were generally on Laurabolin and we bread successfully with them I know of many other owners that have bred champions from bitches that had laurabolin as a season suppressant.

      Any bitch that was treated with more than the prescribed dose often fitted into another category where they performed better than they may have without it and resultant pups threw to the natural ability of the bitch not the enhanced version.

   Merv also said that testosterone causes loss of bone density and is probably the cause of broken hocks. Testosterone does not cause loss of bone density in fact it is just the opposite in that when we age and stop producing as much testosterone we then get bone loss. Testosterone is sometimes used to improve bone density. Merv you may be confusing glucorticoids with anabolic steroids. The anabolic steroids like testosterone mean grow bigger. glucorticoids are used for medical conditions and injuries to reduce inflammation and they DO reduce bone density.

Who Knows made the point that male dogs feature more than they should in major races and a lot of trainers have a high ratio of male dogs. That is correct but nothing to do with administration of steroids. If I was a public trainer I would race male dogs only as it is no longer legal to supress the season in bitches, you have a nightmare managing bitches that may come into season six monthly, not only from the time out of racing but the effect of in season bitches in a mixed kennel. Far easier to train the males.

       

 

 

 

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Just re read that post and It sounds like we experimented with giving bitches more than the therapeutic dose. I should rephrase that clarify that I was aware of bitches that had been given more than the therapeutic dose of Laurabolin and their pups were certainly not in the same ball park.

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I had a book given to me by Irene Lundon, it was the size of a phone book. It was from about 1990, and was a world Vet conference held in Sydney on the racing Greyhound. They had experts in all fields on Greyhounds giving lectures. Dave Matheson, Bob Van attended. The experts came from arond the world. I remember reading an expert on hormones, steroids etc, think he was American stating it only took 3 mths of steroid use in a Greyhound bitch to cause permanent damage and change in the skeletal structure in the back end, lumber region, which resulted in more difficulty in bitches giving birth. They tended to require more caesarean section when giving birth because of changes in the skeletal structure. The damage was permanent, and only took 3 mths to start having an effect.

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That is only when administered to a developing animal John ie under 12mnths. The usual difference is I think denser bones.. The proof was ion the pudding, Bob Van M told me of the high incidence of use in bitches throughout Aus with no consequence when breeding. I have the same book still and cannot find any mention of what you quote.

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Not surprised you couldn't find it, very thick book, and there was two of them. When i tried to find it at a later date i couldn't either. But its there somewhere, and i definately remember it as it always stuck in my mind. I think i only uncovered it because i was trying to read cover to cover and it was a subject dear to my heart.

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GOM..  You just have to look at socalled past champion bitches,, Misty Anna was starting to grow male appendages absolutely useless as a brood bitch and she wasn't the only bitch growing male parts in that era..

My brother died of emphysema in 1998 in Brisbane,, he was under the care of this Professor who was a world authority on lung and anabolics...   

Emphysema can be hareditary so of course when we were over there all our family we're tested...

He happen to give us a rundown of the damage anabolics and hormones do to the body, his patients including my brother had such brittle bones you had to be so carefull around them

He was of the belief without any doubt that all anabolics and hormones affect severe bone density depletion...

 

The most important character we look for in breeding, and there's only one that we look for is real ability meaning the dog or bitch  run on there own merits... 

Basically it should come down to what you see is what you get,, that's our breeding policy and we're sticking by it..

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17 minutes ago, merv o brien said:

GOM..

Could you explain why there's probably been in the vacinity 20--30 broken hocks just in this year alone at Addington,, some 3  1/2 months..

Horrific figures, but you think it's okay

 

Breakdowns happen for many different reasons do you know for a FACT these happened because the dogs had anabolic????I bet the answer is no ...if that is the case come back and post once you have FACTS..not just trying to push your own agenda...cheers.

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4 hours ago, GOM said:

That is only when administered to a developing animal John ie under 12mnths. The usual difference is I think denser bones.. The proof was ion the pudding, Bob Van M told me of the high incidence of use in bitches throughout Aus with no consequence when breeding. I have the same book still and cannot find any mention of what you quote.

Question GOM?, how would Bob know there was no consequence when breeding to hormoned bitches. All indications that i'm aware of, say giving Steroids to bitches to suppress their menstrual cycle over a lengthy period is to the detriment of the bitch. If i had a choice between two bitches of equal ability, one raced cleanly, the other used steroids to suppress the menstrual cycle through out her race career, it would be a no brainer which you would choose. I only have to look at what happened to East German female swimmers that were state sponsored with Steroids. Steroids allowed East Germany to be 3rd on the Olympic medal count for about 25 yrs, it had huge and horrific results on the women athletes which still reverberate's today. They lost their breasts, grew body hair, and became male like. They produced spastic, crippled babys. As far as i'm concerned, no anabolic steroid is good for Greyhound bitches when it comes to breeding.

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3 hours ago, merv o brien said:

GOM..

Could you explain why there's probably been in the vacinity 20--30 broken hocks just in this year alone at Addington,, some 3  1/2 months..

Horrific figures, but you think it's okay

 

Probably the same reason why above alls been injured for 2/3rds of its career aye?

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Merv, You answer your own question when you say your brother had emphysema. the steroid used in these cases is a corticosteroid not anabolic and as I stated before corticosteroids do cause loss of bone density. My sympathy to you on  your loss it is not a pleasant way to die.

I won't even bother answering your ridiculous statement about the broken hocks.

We do agree however on bitches historically being given doses of steroids way above the prescribed level which would have had an  anabolic effect and their pups did not live up to mums ability.

John, You remember all these things about steroids and are sure about others but give no factual basis to back it up. At this moment I believe they are a figment of your imagination and I don't mean that in a nasty way. You have strong , passionate beliefs about the subject and as most people do in those circumstances probably cling to bits they have heard along the way. We have been mates for a long time and we can have different points of views and I am happy for you to prove me wrong.

You said your self that Bob Van M attended the international conference in Sydney and he was also personal friends with many of the top Australian vets who specialised in greyhounds. He would know.

Comparing the German female athletes with greyhound bitches given testosterone in tiny amounts is stupid as the former were given huge doses to deliberately have an anabolic effect.

My final hurrah in greyhound racing will be racing two bitches and I lament not being able to control their seasons. Does that mean that I support doping or giving some dogs and advantage, of course not. Do I believe people are giving steroids to dogs to cause an anabolic effect of course I do.

 

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Vets don't make good breeders, and because you know a few Vets do's not make a convincing argument that any steroids given to a brood bitch do's not have ramifications down the line. Stating , he would know, is not very convincing.

I use the example of East German women for good reason. You can see and identify the damage inflicted through the use of steroids on the body. Identifying the damage in a dog is harder to recognize  In the Greyhound sense, giving half a mll of steroids once a month, 12 times a yr, may not produce an anabolic effect, but it most certainly will not be in the best interest of the broodbitch when it comes to breeding.

But the bigger problem is, by allowing legitimate dose's of steroids, ie1/2 mll a month to stop the seasonal cycle, you then give license to crooked trainers to give an amount that will have an anabolic effect, which is precisely what happened when it was excepted practice. This in turn gave rise to champion Greyhound bitches who go on to breed. We all know the suspects here, our history would be littered with them. I am not against steroids per'say, they have there purpose, but injected 12 times a yr into a breeding bitch, despite what Bob says will only produce a negative.

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I must admit John that I thought about the benefit of not making them available stopping the fonging but it hasn't. Just a different name . It's the same as drugs and humans they are talking now about legalising them as they are so readily available on the black market.

  What strange times we live in or is it, as long as mankind has been around they have sought and experimented with allsorts of mind altering substances no matter what the evidence of likely harm so if that is the case we can hardly expect them to treat their animals any different.

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By the way on the subject of Bob vm knowing what he was talking about. Bob considered himself a reproductive expert in greyhounds and I have every reason to believe that was accurate. As part of that he did a lot of research into the effect of low dose steroids on the greyhound bitches future as a broodbitch. As I said he would know

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On 4/22/2016 at 11:56 AM, merv o brien said:

GOM..

Could you explain why there's probably been in the vacinity 20--30 broken hocks just in this year alone at Addington,, some 3  1/2 months..

Horrific figures, but you think it's okay

 

did'nt happen years ago ,   very lucky even to hear of one

 

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54 minutes ago, GOM said:

By the way on the subject of Bob vm knowing what he was talking about. Bob considered himself a reproductive expert in greyhounds and I have every reason to believe that was accurate. As part of that he did a lot of research into the effect of low dose steroids on the greyhound bitches future as a broodbitch. As I said he would know

do you know if any of the research was published as it would be interesting reading

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On April 22, 2016 at 8:16 AM, aquaman said:

Not surprised you couldn't find it, very thick book, and there was two of them. When i tried to find it at a later date i couldn't either. But its there somewhere, and i definately remember it as it always stuck in my mind. I think i only uncovered it because i was trying to read cover to cover and it was a subject dear to my heart.

an comment by a well known person

 
Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm
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Post by Tom Meulman on Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm

Hi dj,

Sorry mate but I'm really not really keen to provide any advice in this area, as there is a huge difference as to how various
bitches from various blood lines react to being kept of season.

I have known large numbers of bitches that have been kept off season with very small weekly quantities of Testosterone
Propionate and have gone on to have good sized litters, and yet others where the same injections resulted in cysts on the
ovaries and no chance of ever becoming a good broody, and others that never came on season again after their racing career
was over.

If you are absolutely certain that you or anyone else will never ever wish to breed with a specific bitch, 1/4 of a ml of
Testoprop injected weekly will keep them off season and in most instances will make her chase a little harder and stand up to
stress a little better.

However if it is a bitch from a good litter forget about keeping her off season, as the risk of destroying her as a worthwhile
Dam are too great.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is some evidence that anabolic steroids could affect the DNA, and therefore it is
possible that using such substances to keep a bitch off season could result in inferior quality litters compared to if it had not
been used.

Cheers,
Tom
Edited by scooby3051
Tried to make it more readable

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3 hours ago, gary1 said:

an comment by a well known person

 
Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm
Quote
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Post by Tom Meulman on Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm

Hi dj,

Sorry mate but I'm really not really keen to provide any advice in this area, as there is a huge difference as to how various
bitches from various blood lines react to being kept of season.

I have known large numbers of bitches that have been kept off season with very small weekly quantities of Testosterone
Propionate and have gone on to have good sized litters, and yet others where the same injections resulted in cysts on the
ovaries and no chance of ever becoming a good broody, and others that never came on season again after their racing career
was over.

If you are absolutely certain that you or anyone else will never ever wish to breed with a specific bitch, 1/4 of a ml of
Testoprop injected weekly will keep them off season and in most instances will make her chase a little harder and stand up to
stress a little better.

However if it is a bitch from a good litter forget about keeping her off season, as the risk of destroying her as a worthwhile
Dam are too great.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is some evidence that anabolic steroids could affect the DNA, and therefore it is
possible that using such substances to keep a bitch off season could result in inferior quality litters compared to if it had not
been used.

Cheers,
Tom

thanks

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17 hours ago, gary1 said:

an comment by a well known person

 
Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm
Quote
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Post by Tom Meulman on Feb 29, 2012 at 3:42pm

Hi dj,

Sorry mate but I'm really not really keen to provide any advice in this area, as there is a huge difference as to how various
bitches from various blood lines react to being kept of season.

I have known large numbers of bitches that have been kept off season with very small weekly quantities of Testosterone
Propionate and have gone on to have good sized litters, and yet others where the same injections resulted in cysts on the
ovaries and no chance of ever becoming a good broody, and others that never came on season again after their racing career
was over.

If you are absolutely certain that you or anyone else will never ever wish to breed with a specific bitch, 1/4 of a ml of
Testoprop injected weekly will keep them off season and in most instances will make her chase a little harder and stand up to
stress a little better.

However if it is a bitch from a good litter forget about keeping her off season, as the risk of destroying her as a worthwhile
Dam are too great.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is some evidence that anabolic steroids could affect the DNA, and therefore it is
possible that using such substances to keep a bitch off season could result in inferior quality litters compared to if it had not
been used.

Cheers,
Tom
 
Whoever Tom is he sounds like a wise man, a very common sense opinion. Thanks for that Gary.

 

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34 minutes ago, aquaman said:

 

tom meulman a well respected vet john just type his name in google you will see a lot of articles he has produced

Edited by gary1
spelling

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