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barryb

Livingston yet again.

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Elusive City would be the worst sire in New Zealand when it comes to playing up in the stalls. Pity because they have a lot of ability. In the last at Riccarton last Saturday two Elusive City's were side by side and inevitably both played up badly. Big Hoss threw himself backwards and was late scratched.

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Barrier trial to satisfaction of stipes yet again.

No way, it's racing career should be over, it's a Rogue for punters and jockeys.

Can give anything in life a few chances, but this horse has now had 5, seriously injured someone today and it's still a maiden.

 

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Stipendiary Stewards Report states that she become fractious entering her stall and Rogan Norvall suffered compound fractures to his left leg. I can only surmise that she crushed his leg against the left side of her barrier. She has lost her rider at the start in two previous races. I can't believe that the Stewards have allowed her to trial again.

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Like Big Hoss Livingston has thrown herself backwards in the stalls in previous starts. Would be interested to know what the opinion of the Starter and his assistants would be if they were asked about her behaviour.

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Sure made a mess of his leg, both tibia and fibia broken

 

Fractures happen when there’s more force applied to the bone than it can withstand.

•   A lower-leg fracture usually happens due to a “high-energy” force from falls, trauma or a direct blow. These are 
    often caused by motor vehicle crashes or by direct contact or sudden twisting in sports. 
•   Whenever there is a trauma to the leg, the impact spreads between the tibia and fibula. Because both bones 
    absorb the blow, the impact usually results in a combined tibia /fibula fracture.  

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Firstly can I say we are gutted by what has happened to Rogan. As Trainers you feel like it is your fault when this happens. Like everyone else our first reaction was to blame the horse . Having now contacted Rogan and some of barrier attendants it appears it was a freak accident. Rogan's stirrup iron got stuck on a part of the starting gates as she was loading. The weight of the horse going forward caused the injuries. Rogan and the barrier attendants said it could have happened with any horse. The person that started this tread has had a crack about the horse previously so I want to set the record straight. Before the Taupo incident where she slipped onto  her haunches as the gates were about to open, she had trialed 5 times and raced 6 times without incident. Why her back legs went under her we don't know. She did not throw herself over backwards as someone on here commented. At her next start  she refused to load and this was probably a carry over from her Taupo experience. The Stipes requested she undergo an official barrier jump out. The barrier boys worked out how best to load her and she trialed  at Cambridge without incident.( ridden by Margaret).  Livingston then ran 4th with Kinjite on. At her following  start Kinjite was dislodged NOT BY LIVINGSTON, but by the horse in the next barrier ridden by G Cooksley. That horse had played up in the birdcage and also at the barriers. It came out of the gates sideways and heavily bumped into Livingston causing Kinjite to fall off. This was not reported to the Stipes,  much easier to blame Livingston as she had the reputation by now. Back to yesterday,because of the serious injuries suffered by Rogan the Stipes will carry out a thorough investigation into the incident and in particular how the stirrup iron became stuck in the starting gates .Perhaps there needs to be a modification done so it never happens again? Some of the comments  on here (always under an alias) put an indirect slur on the Stipes and also on us as Trainers.  In closing, yes Livingston can be difficult to load but there are plenty of other horses that need patience and extra care when loading. The barrier boys were getting her confidence back  and this terrible accident had to happen with Livingston immediately getting the blame. It does nobody any good making uninformed and inflammatory remarks on a public forum.  If any one wants to discuss this further with me then please do. My phone number is 021354588.. Tim Carter

 

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Guest 2Admin2

Thanks Tim for your detailed and reasonable explanation.

Always good to hear all sides.

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Good for you Tim.Real bonus to get all the correct information around these incidents cleared up.From the horses mouth so to speak.

Sure has been an unlucky horse.Be worth a bet when she gets some luck.

Sometimes it is easy to just look at the bare facts but with animals there are always intangibles.

Good Luck.

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19 hours ago, barryb said:

Barrier trial to satisfaction of stipes yet again.

No way, it's racing career should be over, it's a Rogue for punters and jockeys.

Can give anything in life a few chances, but this horse has now had 5, seriously injured someone today and it's still a maiden.

 

I hope you will apologise now ??

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Good on you Tim for fronting up and putting across a complete picture of the horse and situation.

Apologies to you and the horse, best of luck with her in the future, she has clearly been a handful and had some seriously bad luck.

Scooby, I don't need to be prompted by you to put my hand up when wrong thanks. People are entitled to opinions and in the absence of full information can only make an assessment on what's known. 

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2 minutes ago, barryb said:

Good on you Tim for fronting up and putting across a complete picture of the horse and situation.

Apologies to you and the horse, best of luck with her in the future, she has clearly been a handful and had some seriously bad luck.

Scooby, I don't need to be prompted by you to put my hand up when wrong thanks. People are entitled to opinions and in the absence of full information can only make an assessment on what's known. 

Yes but sometimes the assumptions made are completely wrong... better to error on the side of caution..cheers.

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Tim Carter...

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to present the facts regarding the unfortunate incident involving your horse. I know that everybody who attends this Website will be wishing Mr Norvall all the very best for as speedy a full recovery as circumstances permit. Also, we will all be hoping that you and your colleagues and associates are able to sort out Livingston's issues and enable her to show her best on the racetrack.

I do hope that you can acknowledge the positive role that a website such as RaceCafe plays in matters such as this. The discussion engendered by the initiator of this thread has led to the facts being made available to a much wider audience than would otherwise be the case. The opinions expressed, right and wrong, would have been held by those posting and, no doubt, by others. Transparency is a disinfectant and also a requirement if the correct decisions are to be made.

I have no doubt that the initiator of this thread acted in the best interests of all those involved in this incident and the racing industry itself. In posting what he thought to be the case, he started a discussion that has led to a greater state of enlightenment for us all. I can understand the umbrage you would have taken in the first instance but your informative, measured and temperate posting leads me to believe that you will have already taken in the wider picture.

All the best.

Ashoka

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what a good man - tim carter  - no trainer wants to see a rider hurt  but it is a dangerous game- tim carter is a  very good trainer and what ive heard a real straight up guy-he had to put up with some rubbish  a few years  ago - many more like him in the game makes it better not worse. Note his wife rode it-  big ups to them.

 

jockeys drivers trainers stablehands all put their lives on the line every day-  it should never be forgotten-

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Hi Barry,

The problem is and I will probably step on toes here, the Stipe's do need to be better at what they do. Given that they need to get a report out as soon after the meeting has finished, they rush and don't give out the information as it has happened. Too many times I have read reports and nothing has been mentioned about incidents that are really quite important. In Livingston's case it is fair to say that on the face of it she is a problem horse. You and the others that have commented can only remark on what is in front of you. Even today I had a lady come and tell me about Livingston and how the Trainers couldn't get anyone to ride it and never told Rogan what it was like. She nearly dropped through a crack in the floor when I told her we trained it.  She then told me it was relayed to her in the company of others here in Cambridge. Scooby is right. Not easy being a Trainer!

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