Lance O'Sullivan

[Leggy 4,076]

10 minutes ago, Scotch Thistle said:

Smells of a cover up if O'Sullivan didn't direct his farm manager to fully cooperate with the RIU. 

That bit seems rather peculiar and unexplained.

[Leggy 4,076]

47 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

The RIU Veterinarian Doctor Andrew Grierson was consulted about replicating this supposed explanation. When he sought Veterinary Ethics Committee approval to conduct control testing in the amounts and formulas provided, that approval was not granted. This was due to the products not being listed for use in horses and that the actual dose was not able to be accurately determined.

It was the expert view that exposing animals to the explained levels given by Wexford would be toxic to the animals and detrimental to animal welfare.

That bit seems even more peculiar when the original RIU release said:

An explanation provided by Wexford Stables was that their horses had been exposed to heavily cobalt dosed water troughs the horses shared with dairy cattle. As part of our investigation the RIU undertook a series of trials that proved that cobalt levels above 200ug/L can come about by the oral feeding of cobalt in high concentrations. 

 

The trials were carried out by Dr Andrew Grierson Veterinary, advisor to the RIU. The trial and its results have been peer reviewed and confirmed by Professor Stuart Paine, an international expert on the subject. 

 

How the hell is one supposed to reconcile that?

[Guest 2Admin2]

3 minutes ago, Leggy said:

That bit seems rather peculiar and unexplained.

Why?  The RIU'S reach doesn't extend to unlicensed farmers.

[von Smallhaussen 3,226]

13 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Speculation..you have no idea what was said so stop poking fingers unless you know the FACTS..or this will go the same way as the other one.

aw com'on - it's better than that batchelor and cooking programmes on tv! 

[Leggy 4,076]

7 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

Why?  The RIU'S reach doesn't extend to unlicensed farmers.

No, but his employers' reach does and did where that helped.

[chevy86 2,704]

Forget the Racing issue--the bigger picture is whether the image-struggling Fonterra is aware that their "mixed herds" now encompass cows and horses.

[Guest 2Admin2]

6 minutes ago, Leggy said:

No, but his employers' reach does and did where that helped.

C'mon Leggy you are stirring.  I think what is more important is where is the science that was discovered?  Shouldn't the RIU be publishing it for the industry?

[Leggy 4,076]

25 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

C'mon Leggy you are stirring.  I think what is more important is where is the science that was discovered?  Shouldn't the RIU be publishing it for the industry?

Yep, well I agree (not about the stirring ), and that is the other peculiarity that I mentioned. From the decision, it appears there was none for ethical reasons, even though the previous RIU release said there was?

This attachment is not there yet either:

The first positive led the RIU to investigate some 20 earlier samples from Wexford horses. An attached schedule of these results .....

Along with the evidence that you mention from the agreed summary of facts.

Subsequent testing by racing Integrity Unit Veterinary experts have revealed that the O’SULLIVAN explanation cannot be ruled out as a possible cause of these extremely elevated urinary cobalt readings.

To date seems to be MIA if it was done at all because of the given ethical reasons. Odd.

[Ashoka 1,179]

2Admin2...

As I have, repeatedly, pointed out, the research undertaken has not shown that the levels recorded can be achieved in the manner that was investigated. Further, given the failure of a significant participant to cooperate, why was this matter not referred to the Police? Why have the animal welfare issues inherent in this matter not been further investigated? Why has Mr Lance O'Sullivan, it would appear, not been questioned in relation to the matter of his employee refusing to cooperate with the investigation? This, in my opinion, so-called "investigation", leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.

This matter now constitutes a serious integrity issue for the entire racing industry.

All the best.

Ashoka

.

[Guest 2Admin2]

Wrong Ashoka - we haven't seen the research. 

[Leggy 4,076]

3 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

Wrong Ashoka - we haven't seen the research. 

I agree, but was it ever done or not? It is completely MIA in the Wexford decision and in the Moody decision we have an expert scientific witness at first saying the chances of oral administration causing the measured levels being a gazillion to one. Then, changing his evidence to say it was 87% and that he had made a miscalculation. Sorry to question your evidence professor, but that seems a rather large miscalculation for a scientific expert witness to make in an important hearing.

[Leggy 4,076]

12 minutes ago, hesi said:

Was it reported what these 20 test results were

It appears that the RIU first began testing for cobalt in 2014 and 20 further historical tests of Wexford horses were conducted after the initial positive, with the two other charges arising from this testing. We note from the table supplied by Mr Galbraith that of the 28 tests analysed from 1 March 2015 onwards from Wexford horses, no other level was above 190 and many were in single figure digits.

As I said, these were reportedly attached as a schedule to the decision but it's not yet there.

[Leggy 4,076]

Hardly an anomaly if the next highest reading was 190.

Don't really have a take. Too much missing information.

[Scotch Thistle 133]

2 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

Speculation..you have no idea what was said so stop poking fingers unless you know the FACTS..or this will go the same way as the other one.

I think it reasonable, given that O'Sullivan's lawyer Galbraith made no mention of O'Sullivan directing his farm manager to assist the RIU, to conclude that O'Sullivan didn't.

[Ashoka 1,179]

2Admin2...

The research has been reported on in official dispatches. If the said research has shown that the recorded levels could be reached in the manner that was investigated, it would have been reported as such given the evidence which was presented in relation to the said research.

All the best.

Ashoka

[Jefferson 207]

2 hours ago, Scotch Thistle said:

Smells of a cover up if O'Sullivan didn't direct his farm manager to fully cooperate with the RIU. 

Perhaps O'Sullivan did direct the farm manager, who refused to do as directed, and O'Sullivan said "tut tut" rather than sacking him?

If it waddles like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If it sounds like horseshit and it smells like horseshit, then it probably is. 

[chevy86 2,704]

1 hour ago, hesi said:

.

This result then prompted a further 20 historical O’SULLIVAN / SCOTT samples to be sent for cobalt analysis.

Which revealed cobalt levels of ?? So we now have 40 horses and a dairy herd grazing in the close confines of Matamata race-track in day-grazing paddocks! Have never seen an on-site milking shed in all my visits to Matamata stables. And before you mock this flippancy remember these horses were supposedly highly-tuned for imminent racing in races such as the Derby!--with their water intake closely monitored I imagine, not subject to unregulated intake from a communal trough.

No evidence from the farm manager? The classic Bain, Lundy, Watson, MacDonald strategy--stay shtum in case your memory forgets the script..

[Leggy 4,076]

10 hours ago, 2Admin2 said:

C'mon Leggy you are stirring.  I think what is more important is where is the science that was discovered?  Shouldn't the RIU be publishing it for the industry?

"We conducted a lot of tests involving what the horses eat and drink and we found there were circumstances where they could raise the horses' cobalt level past the 200 limit," said Godber.  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11606731

"The RIU Veterinarian Doctor Andrew Grierson was consulted about replicating this supposed explanation. When he sought Veterinary Ethics Committee approval to conduct control testing in the amounts and formulas provided, that approval was not granted. This was due to the products not being listed for use in horses and that the actual dose was not able to be accurately determined.

It was the expert view that exposing animals to the explained levels given by Wexford would be toxic to the animals and detrimental to animal welfare."

"Subsequent testing by racing Integrity Unit Veterinary experts have revealed that the O’SULLIVAN explanation cannot be ruled out as a possible cause of these extremely elevated urinary cobalt readings."

 

Perhaps Mr. Early would be kind enough to ask Mr. Godber today to explain these apparent discrepancies and whether the RIU would publish the full result of these reported tests if they were actually done? As Ashoka has said, the whole credibility of the explanation and the RIU investigation in this case rests on the research conducted which shows that it is possible to achieve the tested levels in this case from oral supplementation.

I agree with you 2admin2, that in the interests of integrity, credibility and transparency, these tests should be released to the international racing community and public.

[Ashoka 1,179]

Leggy and 2Admin2...

I, too, agree with both of you regarding the necessity of making the information revealed in the research fully available to both the public and, expressly, to other potential research organisations. However, I believe that the full and complete results of all aspects of the investigation need to be made available to the public, a brief which includes the research aspects. The interests of integrity, credibility and transparency demand that this be the case.

All the best.

Ashoka

[Midget 4,489]

2 minutes ago, Ashoka said:

Leggy and 2Admin2...

I, too, agree with both of you regarding the necessity of making the information revealed in the research fully available to both the public and, expressly, to other potential research organisations. However, I believe that the full and complete results of all aspects of the investigation need to be made available to the public, a brief which includes the research aspects. The interests of integrity, credibility and transparency demand that this be the case.

All the best.

Ashoka

They have no obligation to publish anything for your consumption.

The results will no doubt be discussed and dissected by experts at the upcoming ICRAV conference, and that's where they belong, not where some internutters can misinterpret them and use them mischievously.

[Guest 2Admin2]

11 hours ago, kakama said:

Walker might not have stayed on one of the heifers if he had been drinking the same juice!!

Kakama the metabolism of cobalt by ruminants (cows) is different to that of monogastric herbivores (horses).

[gubellini 3,995]

This Wexford penalty decision while totally predictable creates a very dangerous precedent for N.Z. racing. The underlying message is that ANY trainer can present a horse to Race with any substance above the legal limit and they will NOT lose their licence. To my thinking this is totally unacceptable. Note that yesterday David Hayes launched a blistering attack on drug cheating trainers in Australia. I wait with bated breath for a N.Z. trainer to endorse his comments.

[Guest 2Admin2]

10 hours ago, kakama said:

Here is a question for those that know, 

In a major race in nz, please tell me the procedure for testing horses? Do they all get tested? Times etc? 

Cheers Al

 

 

Kakama for someone who has a strong opinion about this case you sure are short on knowledge.

By "major race" I assume you mean Group races?  It is my understanding that the first three are tested in a Group race and only the winner in lesser races.

From time to time there are pre-race TCO2 and my understanding is that the RIU have the right to take a test anytime anywhere on a licensed property.  Maybe wrong with that last bit.  I recall an occasion where all horses were pre-tested in a Grp 1 event but I'm not sure if that is common practice.

In 2015 there were 10,600 swabs, blood and out of competition tests undertaken across all three codes.  With 146 Group/Listed races and 2848 races overall roughly 3,300 tests are taken post thoroughbred race. 

 

[Leggy 4,076]

25 minutes ago, gubellini said:

This Wexford penalty decision while totally predictable creates a very dangerous precedent for N.Z. racing. The underlying message is that ANY trainer can present a horse to Race with any substance above the legal limit and they will NOT lose their licence. To my thinking this is totally unacceptable. Note that yesterday David Hayes launched a blistering attack on drug cheating trainers in Australia. I wait with bated breath for a N.Z. trainer to endorse his comments.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Horse-Racing/Hayes-crack-down-on-drug-cheats/2005/06/01/1117568258921.html

[biff 2,158]

23 minutes ago, gubellini said:

This Wexford penalty decision while totally predictable creates a very dangerous precedent for N.Z. racing. The underlying message is that ANY trainer can present a horse to Race with any substance above the legal limit and they will NOT lose their licence. To my thinking this is totally unacceptable. Note that yesterday David Hayes launched a blistering attack on drug cheating trainers in Australia. I wait with bated breath for a N.Z. trainer to endorse his comments.

Whilst I'm not a licensed trainer, I endorse David's comments 100%.........needle trainers are a dime a dozen, horses welfare is forgotten in the chase for cash, those of us, well most of us taught by icons who never resorted to needles and go quick, use old fashioned, time proven methods of training horses to win races. Those gifted with horses that have fleet of foot, a tad quicker than most, can set the horse for the punt, a big punt hopefully, now that you can get set via Betfair and corps.....long live and prosper the trainer with those old fashioned qualities.......