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Lance O'Sullivan

369 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Quickly read some of this thread but haven't indulged myself by reading each and every word - however some of what I did read amazed me.   It seems that some prefer to just post whatever comes into their heads, rather than thinking about it or actually establishing fact from fiction and some are just determined to be right no matter what  :)  that is always an entertaining option for folk to take and one of my faves to read :)  .. anyway ..  if this link has been posted before then apologies for the repetition.. but if not.. you may find this information of interest ... Courtesy of the    Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry   .http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=371&tid=64

Of note - ... depending on kidney function, excretion is not always optimal which means that it may not be expelled in the urine efficiently, also there can be issues with regards to build up over a period of time.   Not always noticed at first due to there being levels of cobalt in most "farm based" animals anyway.   Also of note in large areas of open soil, mining, excavation, land development,  it can be carried in the air or the wind, also where there has been a lot of rainfall and flooding, causing residue in waterways and water supply if from a bore etc, also higher levels of cobalt can be found depending on the size of the particles, these may stay closer to the surface of the pasture or the waterway beds meaning that they are then transported, consumed or absorbed in higher levels.

 

 

I'll stand corrected, but I think that is consistent with Midget's post and my take on it Chestnut?

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32 minutes ago, hesi said:

Seems like a lot of amateur Google biochemist/chemist researchers flapping around here.

You know, they say when you have something medically wrong with you, the worst thing you can do is Google it.

 

Well Hesi reading science papers through Google beats working on emotion and being ill informed.  Besides some of us have been educated in these matters during our tertiary studies.

Incidentally Google is a great tool for finding legitimate scientific research.

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Entertaining thread. Personally, while  I think the excuse offered makes for a great laugh, surely we can  all understand that      wexford stables would have been crazy to admit to administration given the inevitable penalties in such a case.  ive previously referred to the southland harness trainer who about 5 years ago admitted to mistakenly giving his horse an illegal substance. His case was clear proof that honesty is not the way to go in these cases as the penalties are far greater if you do.  What does that say about the system?   So lets not be too hard on wexford stables for that.  What I find amusing is the defenders of wexford stables on this site, do so, not because they believe the excuse offered, but only because they can argue the excuse offered is possible. I find that a little amusing.

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4 minutes ago, what a post said:

Entertaining thread. Personally, while  I think the excuse offered makes for a great laugh, surely we can  all understand that      wexford stables would have been crazy to admit to administration given the inevitable penalties in such a case.  ive previously referred to the southland harness trainer who about 5 years ago admitted to mistakenly giving his horse an illegal substance. His case was clear proof that honesty is not the way to go in these cases as the penalties are far greater if you do.  What does that say about the system?   So lets not be too hard on wexford stables for that.  What I find amusing is the defenders of wexford stables on this site, do so, not because they believe the excuse offered, but only because they can argue the excuse offered is possible. I find that a little amusing.

There aren't many defending Wexford unless your contention is that those who say the reason sounds plausible is a sign of defending them.

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Just want to know if the elevated cobalt levels are due to the water trough scenario ( Dr Grierson and peer reviewed ) why hasn't the RIU released a statement to all the trainers in NZ that under these circumstances this can happen. 

Wouldnt it be the safest thing to do.  No use waiting until the O Sullivan case is heard and resolved it still could take months down the track.

 

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6 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

Just want to know if the elevated cobalt levels are due to the water trough scenario ( Dr Grierson and peer reviewed ) why hasn't the RIU released a statement to all the trainers in NZ that under these circumstances this can happen. 

Wouldnt it be the safest thing to do.  No use waiting until the O Sullivan case is heard and resolved it still could take months down the track.

 

That gets the prize for the best question so far.

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8 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

Just want to know if the elevated cobalt levels are due to the water trough scenario ( Dr Grierson and peer reviewed ) why hasn't the RIU released a statement to all the trainers in NZ that under these circumstances this can happen. 

Wouldnt it be the safest thing to do.  No use waiting until the O Sullivan case is heard and resolved it still could take months down the track.

 

You're talking about idiots Whyisit, idiots, they are waiting on ideas from hoi poloi, then, a thought bubble. Not always a wise thought bubble though, #crashandburn

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Leggy the paper credited appears to definitively substantiate the premise that cobalt CONTINUES to be EXCRETED over weeks, albeit it at reduced levels in humans.

This is not necessarily the case in horses but cross species data often applies.

I think we all agree that VB12 is excreted quickly, with a 6 hour half life, but we can equally assume that the cobalt salt sticks around a lot longer, and that lends itself to the Wexford defense don't you think.

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1 hour ago, Midget said:

I think we all agree that VB12 is excreted quickly, with a 6 hour half life, but we can equally assume that the cobalt salt sticks around a lot longer, and that lends itself to the Wexford defense don't you think.

No,

While the defence might be possible, its not probable.

I believe the story about the meteorite landing in the paddock is much more likely, than the current codswallop.

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I have been a dairy farmer for over 35 years. Both my parents(until tragedy struck) and my husbands parents (who farmed all their lives) have been involved in farming for a long time.  It is not normal practice to put cobalt into water troughs. Normally if cows required it you either use a mineral lick or you give them an injection.  I have not heard of one single farmer around our area that put it into the trough. Our normal practice is for our animals to have a B12 injection which has cobalt in it and this is done June July and would say that it is a standard practice within the dairy industry

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4 minutes ago, army said:

I have been a dairy farmer for over 35 years. Both my parents(until tragedy struck) and my husbands parents (who farmed all their lives) have been involved in farming for a long time.  It is not normal practice to put cobalt into water troughs. Normally if cows required it you either use a mineral lick or you give them an injection.  I have not heard of one single farmer around our area that put it into the trough. Our normal practice is for our animals to have a B12 injection which has cobalt in it and this is done June July and would say that it is a standard practice within the dairy industry

It was in the form of an algaecide.  That is a treatment to keep the water clean not supplement feed.

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2 hours ago, hesi said:

I don't mind, Biff seems like a good sort:)

Yes there are millions of scientific articles, papers and  reports on the net.

I have used this as an example before with respect to global warming.

You could go through select the articles/papers/reports that suited your case and make as strong a case as for, as against global warming.

By the way, I have a degree in Biochemistry and Chemistry and worked as an industrial chemist for 20 years, so not a total nob:)

Isn't it a bummer when you're not bright enough to do a decent degree and consequently you've got to spend your life as a common lab rat.

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, 2Admin2 said:

It was in the form of an algaecide.  That is a treatment to keep the water clean not supplement feed.

And where does it say that. RIU Statement say oral supplementation of cobalt was tested for and can show that levels above 200 can occur. 

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13 minutes ago, biff said:

We live a stones throw from Peter Jackson's place, I swear we can see pink pigs flying overhead now.

Well go get him to make a movie about it Biff.  You might get a role as chief protagonist.

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3 hours ago, Midget said:

Leggy the paper credited appears to definitively substantiate the premise that cobalt CONTINUES to be EXCRETED over weeks, albeit it at reduced levels in humans.

This is not necessarily the case in horses but cross species data often applies.

I think we all agree that VB12 is excreted quickly, with a 6 hour half life, but we can equally assume that the cobalt salt sticks around a lot longer, and that lends itself to the Wexford defense don't you think.

I agree that is the question. I would have thought that is what the trials would have checked out. The paper you posted suggests 70% the first week and 10% more the following 3 weeks. So in that period an average of .5% a day. We don't know what time-frame is claimed here but relying on that paper, if the races concerned were one to 4 weeks after the intake and urine readings of 5-600 obtained, that would make the initial intake 200 times that, and the 24 hour excretion amount 40% of that. Would make a good tui ad I'm thinking unless they wheel-barrowed the stuff into the trough. I promise to let you know when the heading dog is starting though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 2Admin2 said:

It was in the form of an algaecide.  That is a treatment to keep the water clean not supplement feed.

Do you know that for a fact and if so what the product was? If correct, the levels available could not possibly have caused the urine levels recorded even if they were drinking from it the 24 hours prior to the race and the algaecide had just been added, and assuming a 500l+ cattle trough. MO of course and subject to the detail of the specific trials that Grierson did. It seems unlikely though that the entire intake was excreted in a few hundred ml urine sample post race.

If it was a normally dosed trough algaecide containing cobalt sulphate then on that basis the parties should come clean with the real explanation.

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3 minutes ago, biff said:

The RIU couldn't possibly be 'complicit' to something here could they? Nah.........now that could spell disaster, so Nah.

When they take a year to relegate the horses and come up with this incredible explanation? How could they not be? Up to their eyeballs I'm picking.

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2 hours ago, 2Admin2 said:

It was in the form of an algaecide.  That is a treatment to keep the water clean not supplement feed.

OOps my bad. Then a good old bit of hose is what they should have used. 

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1 hour ago, hesi said:

Coming from a horse trainer and very mediocre one at that, I'll take that as a compliment Now stop wasting everyone's time and put your many Google given talents to good use, put the soothsayers hat on and tell us what the track on Sat is going to be like

Haven't got time.

I'm busy tomorrow but Wednesday & Thursday I thought I'd do a biochemistry and chemistry degree, and when I'm finished that I'll have two rounds of golf, a couple of sets of tennis, then bike to Taupo and back.

Friday I'm off to Palmy so I'll try to check in Saturday morning with a track report.

I'll send your private report to the underside of which bridge ??

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