Flag Change. Power and Ego?

[themagicman 116]

I spoke to a lady friend of the family recently who is involved in helping young people doing it tough. Her organisation is well respected in the community but their application for funding was rejected. She was told there was just no money in the kitty.

 

I've heard similar stories associated with nursing and dealing with child poverty. Fair enough, we as a country must all pull together and tighten our belts.

 

How is it then that as a country we have almost 30 million dollars to look into changing our flag? It always amuses me how politicians can justify saying no to whatever and yes to whatever.

 

I feel the flag situation and motivation needs to be examined. As a country has there been an overwhelming majority of people seeking a flag change? Have they been requesting that occur urgently because the NZ flag for example matches that of ISIS?

 

I see the complete opposite. No desire to change the flag and certainly no urgency to do it. It seems to me this flag change farce is nothing more than one rich and powerful man's pet hobby to do just about anything he wants. Surely if he was sincere they would just add an extra box at very little expense on the ballot form at the next general election?

 

If there is a majority saying yes to changing it then and only then go to the next step. That has been skipped which seems perplexing in a democracy. Why the urgency to skip that? The only explanation that makes any sense is the ego of one man. He wants to leave his mark while he has the power to do so.

 

I've heard pro flag change people scoff at the suggestion our fathers and grandfather fought and died under our present flag. I feel the gravity of that situation has been ignored. I can remember many times over the years watching gold medal ceremonies at Olympic Games with tears rolling down my cheeks with pride as the NZ flag was raised.

 

I watched a doco recently about the Air NZ DC 10 that crashed into Mount Erebus in Antarctica. At the end of the doco a very moving moment as the NZ flag sat at half mast. There have been so many huge moments in NZ history under under our flag. This screams out as an ego driven change for changes sake pushed by one very wealthy man in a powerful position.

 

As as aside on the voting. We have many thousands of new New Zealanders that have arrived in the last five years from China. These people have absolutely nothing invested in NZ's past both financially and emotionally. Not a single sacrifice yet they as New Zealanders now can vote on changing our flag. My grandfather died under the NZ flag fighting for NZ. That gives me a vested interest. What vested interest do 200,000 new Chinese immigrants have in retaining the status quo?  I spoke with a family friend on this aspect recently. Her oil is it's extremely rare in the Chinese community to want to retain the present flag. They all want to change it. I can't imagine the Chinese Government being happy about a bunch of round eyes moving to China and then 5 minutes later significantly influencing them on their flag. They would riot and then export us out of the country with haste using words like "Treason"

   

[globederby12 1,495]

Agree entirely. I voted Nats only because I wanted to avoid emigrating to Aussie if Labour and the Greens got in.

The arrogance of Key in this flag fiasco beggars belief. Mind you it reminds me of the underhanded way poor Kiwi was forced into accepting MMP.

Henry Ford was on the mark when he said "you can have any colour,as long as its black".

[barryb 2,064]

Watch the momentum increase for a flag change now we have a confirmed one to run against the existing.

I actually think the final vote will be very close.

Worth noting that England is in the middle of debating whether to replace God Save the Queen as the national anthem, that's going to stir up truckloads of emotion as well.

[Chestnut 3,151]

The United Kingdom get so much revenue from tourism related to the Royal Family that they would be insane to change that.

As for the flag debate - it all seems to have gone cold and more and more people that I come into contact with just want it to go away, I doubt they will be caught up in any advertising for the new flag no matter what John Key brazenly flaunts in front of us all.

 

[Ohokaman 5,825]

Must say I prefer Lockwoods Red and Blue version.....represents a modern, forward thinking Nation.

[Chestnut 3,151]

Whatever a new flag may represent to the outside world or whomever you want to notice it, does not mirror what it means to the people of that nation, nor will it change what the people do in that nation.   Sure we can go on ad finitum about the new marketing opportunities as John Key likes to flaunt all the time.. because everyone has to go out and buy new gear with the new flag...   that's ridiculous logic.. if that was the most important factor, every country would change their flag every year, just like sports teams do with their uniforms to gain revenue.

The flag is more than that... it's ingrained in us all that have grown with it, it's what the country is about past and present, and the flag doesn't owe us anything, we owe the flag and we should live up to that.  Changing it to try and influence the mentality and purpose of New Zealanders is pointless and once you go down that path, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be changed every five years.

 

 

[Chestnut 3,151]

18 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

Must say I prefer Lockwoods Red and Blue version.....represents a modern, forward thinking Nation.

If this new flag represents a modern, forward thinking nation.. then what has the old flag done... create the modern, forward thinking nation?    It's like someone named Joe Bloggs changing their name to something more classy when they're famous.. forgetting that plain old Joe Bloggs made them famous

 

 

[Ohokaman 5,825]

45 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

If this new flag represents a modern, forward thinking nation.. then what has the old flag done... create the modern, forward thinking nation?    It's like someone named Joe Bloggs changing their name to something more classy when they're famous.. forgetting that plain old Joe Bloggs made them famous

 

 

We don't need the Union Jack Maria.....cut the apron strings and move forward with our own identity....

I like it anyway, and fly one at our place.......

[Ohokaman 5,825]

15 minutes ago, hesi said:

Apologies, I'll bugger off back to the Thoroughbred section

Hang on a minute, don't they have people in Thoroughbreds with egos making change for change sake

 

Bloody Aliens.....

[MPERKINS 20]

http://www.nzflag.com/history.cfm 

No matter how many changers happens to our flag our nation built by the people will continue to be built by the same hard working generations in the future.

I am pissed off that my hard earned tax dollars are wasted on a piece of material when there are many struggling to cope with just living. I'm sure there are far more worthy causes where this money could have been spent, or maybe we are paying too much tax if the government are having to dream up unnecessary ways of spending it.

just my opion

[barryb 2,064]

9 hours ago, Chestnut said:

The United Kingdom get so much revenue from tourism related to the Royal Family that they would be insane to change that.

As for the flag debate - it all seems to have gone cold and more and more people that I come into contact with just want it to go away, I doubt they will be caught up in any advertising for the new flag no matter what John Key brazenly flaunts in front of us all.

 

The UK is keeping the Anthem, its England looking to adopt its own Anthem, same as what Scotland and Wales do now.

I think they will change and go with their unofficial one in Jerusalem which is a great Anthem.

 

I am with Ohokaman and like the new flag, those who fought wars under the current flag did so that we had the freedoms choose things as a country for future generationsThe new flag does give us a clear identity and is not unpleasant.

The statement that there are way more worthy causes is a nonsense, there are way more worthy causes than Gov't spending money on Americas cup boats, Rugby World Cup, symphony orchestra, and on it goes.

The time has come and its right to debate this now.

[rdytdy 5,341]

Personally if there is to be change the red, white and blue Lockwood design stands out.

It retains the southern cross (stars) and retains the exact same colour mix of the current flag whilst bringing the fern into play. It provides a freshness (in design) whilst retaining a link to the past. It is superior to the other Lockwood design which has been chosen.

I believe that the red, white and blue flag on a first choice selection polled the highest of the flags but under the stupid list in preference 1-5 scenario placed the other Lockwood flag just ahead which is the flag going to the polls.

If the red, white and blue flag was being put up I would have voted for that, but as it is not I will now vote for retaining the current flag.       

[Ohokaman 5,825]

41 minutes ago, barryb said:

The UK is keeping the Anthem, its England looking to adopt its own Anthem, same as what Scotland and Wales do now.

I think they will change and go with their unofficial one in Jerusalem which is a great Anthem.

 

I am with Ohokaman and like the new flag, those who fought wars under the current flag did so that we had the freedoms choose things as a country for future generationsThe new flag does give us a clear identity and is not unpleasant.

The statement that there are way more worthy causes is a nonsense, there are way more worthy causes than Gov't spending money on Americas cup boats, Rugby World Cup, symphony orchestra, and on it goes.

The time has come and its right to debate this now.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if Scotland gained independence Barry.....flag change perhaps....?!

You can be certain Australia would have a new one if they go Republic....only a matter of time.

[themagicman 116]

10 hours ago, barryb said:

Watch the momentum increase for a flag change now we have a confirmed one to run against the existing.

I actually think the final vote will be very close.

Worth noting that England is in the middle of debating whether to replace God Save the Queen as the national anthem, that's going to stir up truckloads of emotion as well.

You could be right barryb but lot's of things happen that should not be happening. All the pro change folk will get behind the one flag rather than splitting their vote. The bulk of new New Zealanders will vote for a new flag because the present one means absolutely nothing whatsoever to them. John Key will rally all his high profile troops in a multi million dollar ego campaign akin to brainwashing to push for this change that our country apparently needs. Meanwhile there will be no high profile very expensive emotive campaign run simultaneously to retain the present flag. Ultimately I think we will retain the status quo by around 65% to 35% 

As for England's present debate.I really enjoy the passion on show when the English sing God save the Queen at major events. It's very stirring but is also painfully slow. The hymn Jerusalem is one of the most powerful pieces of music you will ever hear and has been embraced by the English for many many years. That debate makes some sense.

Having said that the new England is already in chaos and has been significantly undermined by immigrants and wimp limp wrist Politicians who bend over and accept on behalf of all British people P.C crap that is destroying Britain from within like a cancer.

Nativity plays are now banned in most English schools as they are offensive to Muslims and other religions. Certain institutions are not permitted to fly the UK flag as it does not reflect all the new immigrants. St Georges day must be celebrated quietly and discreetly as to not offend Muslims and other religions. You are not allowed to wear shirts displaying the Union Jack in many places as Muslims and other religions find it offensive etc etc etc etc etc. You have large groups of protesting Muslims marching in English streets yelling such things as "Fxxk the Police".

England should have stood firm to what they believe in. Instead they now have a situation where new immigrants hold the country to ransom being offended by anything and everything. British locals however are seen as trouble makers if they have the audacity to mention what offends them.  

 

   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3268152/Police-wearing-Union-Jack-badge-tribute-PC-David-Phillips-killed-duty-told-patch-case-caused-offence.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2970543/Former-soldier-lost-friends-Iraq-Afghanistan-wars-refused-service-pub-offensive-Union-Flag-shirt.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/399911/Town-votes-against-flying-St-George-s-flag-as-it-might-be-offensive-to-Muslims

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-30277344

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571187/School-nativity-plays-under-threat.html

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/martin-townsend/544603/Martin-Townsend-on-the-Christmas-Nativity-play-ban

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/542708/Jesus-Mary-Christian-tradition-school-Nativity-replaced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8WVkbXOHfM

 

[themagicman 116]

10 hours ago, Ohokaman said:

Must say I prefer Lockwoods Red and Blue version.....represents a modern, forward thinking Nation.

Do you really want a wheet-bix flag Ohokaman? 

 

[themagicman 116]

9 hours ago, hesi said:

This may be humour Hesi but as soon as we start changing to find our identity we will always lose it and be taken over by a stronger identity. Once the flag is changed it will be changed again in another 25 years when the and and a half million Chinese people here demand the flag be more reflective of them. Your flag is pretty much exactly the sort of flag our children and their children will have flying over them.

The birthrates of Chinese in Auckland are now dominating statistics. Many Auckland Plunket nurses report that 70%+ of all new baby cases they attend are in fact Chinese. Plunket is an organisation that is backed up against the wall with funding to the point nurses are now being let go from areas that just cant afford that to happen. Despite that more and more Chinese interpreters are being used at great expense to the tax payer for these mothers who can't speak a word of English. It's nuts.  

[themagicman 116]

1 hour ago, barryb said:

 

The time has come and its right to debate this now.

The right time to have this debate is now barryb. You are correct. Why is that? Because we have been forced into a situation where we must have this debate due to the ego and power of one wealthy man who wants to leave his mark. He has forced this situation on us regardless if we want it or not.  There are many things that NZ urgently needs before we need a hugely expensive advertising campaign to totally unnecessarily change our flag. Well respected community organisations desperately in need of funding are being rejected because there is no money in the kitty. This is causing even more distress on volunteers and victims yet we have an endless supply of money to change the flag?

If there is another life force in our Galaxy they will be looking down on NZ and laughing about how crazy we are to be entertaining this nonsense while other situations are being ignored. It's just so wrong.  

[MPERKINS 20]

What I don't understand is why we had to vote for a flag that we may not want first up? I would have thought the logical option would have been to vote on who wants to change the flag first, maybe there would have been a better voter turn out, obviously if the voting public want change then change can happen but if not... end of story and we can go back to doing the important necessary work. I don't know why, but I didn't even receive a voting pack.

What I do find vaguely amusing is, we have quite a few choices when voting for government but for the flag.... just 2 spring to mind now lol    

[Ohokaman 5,825]

1 hour ago, themagicman said:

Do you really want a wheet-bix flag Ohokaman? 

 

Some idiots wanted this thing.....

[eljay 1,719]

But I hear the Poms now agitating to change the National Anthem.     Suggestions, Jerusalem, Land of Hope & Glory.    Looks like we got a trend going.  

But as Phil would say "Listen darling, they are playing your song!"

Which dares me to proffer a suggestion to them - Ying Tong Iddle I Po!

 

[barryb 2,064]

1 hour ago, themagicman said:

The right time to have this debate is now barryb. You are correct. Why is that? Because we have been forced into a situation where we must have this debate due to the ego and power of one wealthy man who wants to leave his mark. He has forced this situation on us regardless if we want it or not.  There are many things that NZ urgently needs before we need a hugely expensive advertising campaign to totally unnecessarily change our flag. Well respected community organisations desperately in need of funding are being rejected because there is no money in the kitty. This is causing even more distress on volunteers and victims yet we have an endless supply of money to change the flag?

If there is another life force in our Galaxy they will be looking down on NZ and laughing about how crazy we are to be entertaining this nonsense while other situations are being ignored. It's just so wrong.  

Magicman, there has always been people on the poverty line in NZ. In fact in our past it was almost everyone so things have improved greatly in the last century.

Much of the poverty we experience today is imported & on a world scale is very insignificant.

Those who pay large taxes and contribute massively to this countries well being are surely allowed some money (less than $30m & a drop in the ocean compared to what is spent on other stuff) to debate our identity. Identities with countries evolve and change & this is a great time to re-assess what it means to be a NZer. I think the new flag will bolt in as people who were for more of the status quo will move over and vote for the new flag when they realise it sybolises the country of today.

Its not really a big threat, its only a flag. a symbol and an identifying mark that is distinguishable for NZ.

[Trident 179]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKRHWT6xdEU

[Catalano 951]

Magicman, you referred more than once to the " ego and power of one wealthy man " - ego I can understand, certainly if I was in the position of power, I'd probably do something like change the flag or that dirge of a national anthem we have; and if I'm honest, there would be an element of ego in my actions - everyone wants to be remembered.

But you make constant reference to the PM's wealth and I'm not sure what that has to do with this debate; are you suggesting he's buying a result? Or that he may profit from it?

[rdytdy 5,341]

I suspect your first paragraph is the real reason for this push by the PM.

Anyway, I think I will flag this debate. 

 

[Ohokaman 5,825]

4 hours ago, eljay said:

But I hear the Poms now agitating to change the National Anthem.     Suggestions, Jerusalem, Land of Hope & Glory.    Looks like we got a trend going.  

But as Phil would say "Listen darling, they are playing your song!"

Which dares me to proffer a suggestion to them - Ying Tong Iddle I Po!

 

Swing Low Sweet Chariot seems popular over there.....though God knows why........