You can be the Judge

[Yankiwi 782]

We're all entitled to our opinion.

That said, if you had the chance to be the judge for this race, who would you declare as the winner?

 

 

[Racing84 254]

I'm very glad someone posted this.  I watched this race in a pub, albeit on a small tele, and I could have sworn there was a half head margin for the 1 dog on the line.  Looks like less than that on the photo but still a margin nonetheless.  Is there a photo from the outside looking in?

I was very surprised (and disappointed due to bets) to see it declared a dead heat.  It sounded like the caller and presenter were surprised as well.

[GONSTA 1,148]

Didn't watch the race but based on looking at that and looking at both dogs size i would give it to the red. (32.2kg the red v 25.7)

The one thing I can give the 6 in its defence is this is a close up of its nose in a previous race. Certainly would be interesting to view from the other side. 

 

[Yankiwi 782]

The rug on the dogs tells the story of where the nose of the outside dog has to be, which can't be seen.

I fully disagree with the decision to declare this race dead heat. I don't even believe it was close to being one.

I did not punt on the race.

Race #7 - https://www.thedogs.co.nz/catch-the-action/11976/result-detail.aspx

[Black Dog 72]

Possibly the  camera system is in need of renewal ,shocking images and maybe the judge needs replacing as well. From what I saw in real race time .It was not a dead heat...

[MS26 70]

[Yankiwi 782]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Possibly the  camera system is in need of renewal ,shocking images and maybe the judge needs replacing as well. From what I saw in real race time .It was not a dead heat...

I'd suggest you're spot on there Black Dog.

Where is the photo from the outside of the track or a mirror image from the same camera?

It seems that mirror image technology is available to the Manukau Judge. I'd bet he/she had a hard time deciding the finishing position between the 5 & 7 dogs in this race, although where the two dogs rugs are tells the same story. There postures look very similar to the race from yesterday in question!

[MrBigStuff 394]

Clearly not many of you know how the photofinish system works.

http://www.finishlynx.com/packages/photo-finish-thoroughbred-greyhound/

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=finishlynx+photo+finish+demo+horse+racing&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=955&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-YXfsJTKAhXF2aYKHSpVClwQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=PKaSzizFGD2bkM%3A

If you read some of the info on the site it will tell you. Dogs having funny legs means they have put there paw on the line and its had handreds of photos taken of it. So tosay they need a new camera system Black Dog is a misinformed comment. 

[MrBigStuff 394]

Also if you watch the dogs at Hatrick or Addington they clearly have two cameras rather than an old fashioned mirror, you can see it above the winning post on the TV @ Hatrick!

[Yankiwi 782]

Not even close!

How can a race be declared a dead heat when there is no evidence of exactly when the #6 dog crossed the line?

However, it was definitely after the #1 dog in this race. (notice the alignment of the rugs again)

[Racing84 254]

I go back to my initial assessment - half a head margin to the 1.

 

A few years back (maybe 10?) there was a close finish at Cambridge involving 4 dogs from memory.  The judge declared the finishing order 1 through 4 but after the all clear was given it became apparent that he had misidentified the noses of the dogs and had therefore declared the winner as the dog which had actually only run 4th.  I believe the result was changed after the fact.  Same should happen here - clearly not a dead heat. 

 

Also remember a judge being stood down at one stage for betting. 

[NeilD 160]

Gee Yankiwi - well captured. The camera doesn't tell fibs but it begs the question if the camera alignment was set up correctly. I remember chatting to a photo finish operator on a galloping track telling me it has to be done properly as it can be out if not done with real care.

[Yankiwi 782]

9 minutes ago, NeilD said:

Gee Yankiwi - well captured. The camera doesn't tell fibs but it begs the question if the camera alignment was set up correctly. I remember chatting to a photo finish operator on a galloping track telling me it has to be done properly as it can be out if not done with real care.

Thanks Neil.

There's no special photographic magic on my part. I just used the trackside video and slowed it down to a stop at the critical time.

While far from precise, it does show where the #6 dogs head was when the official photo finish image was taken from the inside of the track. It clearly explains why the #6 dogs nose was nowhere to be found in that official image as it was obscured by the neck of the #1 dog. The race was not a dead heat, nor was it even close to being one, even though it has been officially declared one.

If a greyhound track doesn't have the ability to take an accurate photo finish image that shows where every dogs nose is when it crosses the finish line, regardless of where other dogs may be positioned on the track, then they have no right holding a race meet when the wagers are being accepted or purses are at stake. It is 2016, not 1946 after all.

[Tool no. 1 92]

I must admit I watched the race live and thought the 1 dog had hung on by at least a nose but the angle is deceiving there and the trackside camera is slightly off the finishing line. That been said, be grateful you got the split result as Lagoon Belle was a certainty beaten after losing momentum on the turn. She showed yesterday how good she is by running a slasher in a very strong C3 field where the winner went 30 seconds flat. She will win her next start.

[Racing84 254]

I think I've lost on enough occasions on the punt over the years, in unlucky circumstances, that I shouldn't need to feel lucky about being awarded a dead heat in a race where the dog I backed clearly won by somewhere between a nose and a half-head, simply because the 2nd place dog copped some interference on the corner...

[Yankiwi 782]

From one of today's races (9) at Wanganui, this is the photo finish image available & the judge didn't declare a dead heat.

What proof did the Wanganui judge have to separate the two leaders that the Invercargill judge didn't?

Note once again, the alignment of the rugs.

[Tool no. 1 92]

Why the hell would the judge declare a dead heat. The one dog won by a head. The ear of the black dog can clearly be seen a good head behind the ear of the winner.

You are living in la la land pal.

[GONSTA 1,148]

The alignment of the rugs is way different to the one down south IMO. Clear head margin in today's one by looking at the photo's.

[Yankiwi 782]

1 hour ago, Tool no. 1 said:

Why the hell would the judge declare a dead heat. The one dog won by a head. The ear of the black dog can clearly be seen a good head behind the ear of the winner.

You are living in la la land pal.

Very true Tool. 

Today the #1 dog clearly won by a head (although its nose can not be seen) and that only accents my point even more precisely.

In today's photo, the #2's rug, at the further point forward the top of its back was about even with where the reds #1's number was on its rug (or about the distance of a "head" behind the #1's rug).

 

Similar to the alignment which was called a dead heat down south, which I reacon was a .2 length victory to the #1 dog, yet it is officially a dead-heat.

 

 

So back the the original question.

What proof did the Wanganui judge (who made the correct decision) have to separate the two leaders that the Invercargill judge (who made the incorrect decision) didn't?

 

 

[Tool no. 1 92]

You are obviously a very simple fellow. You answer your question and then ask the same question again.

Proof for judge? Number 1 dog, a big head in front of number 2 dog. That took some judging. Helen Keller would not have had any trouble finding the proof either.

[Yankiwi 782]

8 hours ago, Tool no. 1 said:

You are obviously a very simple fellow.

A simple fellow would think that I'm questioning the decision of the Wanganui judge, which I'm not.

An astute fellow would understand that I'm comparing the decisions made in two different races, by two different judges, from two different tracks, with similar photographic evidence provided by each of them.

[shelley 43]

On 1/20/2016 at 6:02 PM, Yankiwi said:

From one of today's races (9) at Wanganui, this is the photo finish image available & the judge didn't declare a dead heat.

What proof did the Wanganui judge have to separate the two leaders that the Invercargill judge didn't?

Note once again, the alignment of the rugs.

The judge was over ruled at Sth by the steward.

[Yankiwi 782]

3 hours ago, shelley said:

The judge was over ruled at Sth by the steward.

Yes that is the way I understand it, the final decision was made by the Steward, which is in breach of GRNZ rule 77.3, if the judge was physically present in the judges box..

77.3 The placings in a Race shall be decided only by the Judge, or in his/her absence by the Assistant Judge, but only if he/she occupies the Judge’s box at the time when the Greyhounds pass the finishing line.

That said, I believe the Ascot judge was (and still is?) seriously let down by the quality of the photo finish equipment. How can there only be only one camera if there is no mirror image technology?

There is nothing in the photo finish image which has been provided, to remotely suggest there was a dead heat. With no evidence of when the #6 dog in the race crossed the line, how could a dead heat be declared? If the decision was passed to the Steward, because the judge was not comfortable in making the call due to lack of evidence then the correct decision (even though in breach of the rules), in my opinion, would to be declare a no race. What further evidence (or expertise) did the Steward have to separate or not separate the two dogs, that the judge didn't?

As a punter, if I had backed the #1 dog I'd be absolutely spewing. Even though I didn't punt on that race I've decided to not punt on future Ascot dog meets until the issue is rectified.

I believe I have provided ample evidence to prove that the race was not a dead heat. I can't tell you when exactly when the #6 dog crossed the line but I have clearly shown it was after the #1 had crossed it.

[Yankiwi 782]

Integrity?

[Yankiwi 782]

Cambridge, Race #3 21/01/16

https://www.thedogs.co.nz/catch-the-action/11997/result-detail.aspx

The #1 won this race by 0.10 lengths. The judge was able to separate them.

Inside head up, outside head down.

It goes to show how well the rugs would have to line up for the outside dog (if the image had been taken from the inside of the track & obscured the exact position of the #1 dogs head) for it to win/dead heat.