RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
WOODBINE

How a Stud can better promote a Stallion?

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I have always been puzzled by the strange scattergun marketing approachs studs have to promoting their stallions.

Every year is a new year and last year's clients are not vigorously followed up to entice them to return their mares. There is an old adage in business that your existing customers are your best customers. It doesnt exist in this business.

So I put forward some ideas:

1 Why not offer a free foaling service to the broodmare owner who returns the mare to the stallion?

2 This year is going to be one of the toughest years in living memory. People are very cautious with their spending and there is very little discretionary money to spend on items such as racehorses etc.

3 Consider taking an incentive scheme for new season stallions so that breeders of say a Group I race at 2 or 3 receives a large bonus. This bonus scheme can be covered by a small insuarance premium.

4 Consider placing the stallion service fees at their correct value. Grangewilliam recently undertook this initiative and good on them.

5 Stallions with similar bloodlines & race records can be poles apart in their stud fees. Consider Nom de Jeu at $6,000 compared to other sons of Montjeu at up to $12,500. The first horse will be very well patronised (including by myself).

6 Cambridge Stud has a recent open day with the added attraction of a free service to three stallions offered to attendees. Could our other major studs consider such an initiative?

7 The value of filly foals has not been comprehensively addressed by studmasters. Perhaps a free or significantly discounted service for the following season could be offered as some compensation for the unfortunate mare owners. Some of our lesser stallions do have such an initiative but it should be more widely spread.

8 The cost of agisting mares and vet fees are getting out of control. When I commenced breeding these costs were free or all inclusive with the stallion fee. I would love to see it return.

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Good Ideas,

The free foaling fee and agistment are very good ideas. Add travel assistance to that and it would go a long way to help breeders who are loyal to studs.

Filly incentive races should help filly breeders if/when they are programmed.

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Are you a member of NZTBA??

I have been recieving something in the mail almost daily from NZ and Aus, including glossy aussie mags.

Woodbine.... you have some meritorious ideas there, and I wish Grangewilliam all the best too. Them and Stoneybridge seem to be the only ones offering some kind of incentive to breeders this year.

Last season I went to one of our higher profile studs because they offered a deffered payment plan along with a fillies reduction plan.

I have never had better service or been more happy with the condition of the mare when she returned home, and I believe(if I can believe the float driver):D, they have some of the best men on the ground you would find anywhere. I was a very happy camper, and only to happy to reccommend them to others.

Interestingly enough though, they have made no follow up contact this year........... They have been bought out by an Aussie though, I guess that explains things a little :D.

I am sorry to say, that I am not breeding another horse until stakes improve a heap, costs come down a heap, or hell freezes over........ which ever comes first.

I am going to tinker with warmbloods or coloureds in the meantime tho.

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I like the idea of a set cost for agistment, a stud offered $500.00 set cost for the entire time your mare is at the stud.....my girl ended up at the stud for 3 mths before she came home in great condition.

I always ask what the vet charges for scans etc.....most the time the studs get better prices for bulke use and most of them pass it on the owner.

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I think you will find in a lot of cases,where the stud does not own the stallion, they are unable to offer "All Inclusive" packages and free foalings etc. If they were to give these services away, then it is a direct loss of income for them...especially when you look at how much it costs to employ a foal-watch person....

And as for studs giving discounts/refunds for filly foals....VERY scary....I think they are creating a monster which could come back to haunt them in the near future....if breeders don't want a filly foal,then they need to seriously consider if they should be in the breeding game. I think it undermines,undervalues the stallion,and sends a clear message that the studs don't value 50% of their stallions off-spring!

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I think you will find in a lot of cases,where the stud does not own the stallion, they are unable to offer "All Inclusive" packages and free foalings etc. If they were to give these services away, then it is a direct loss of income for them...especially when you look at how much it costs to employ a foal-watch person....

And as for studs giving discounts/refunds for filly foals....VERY scary....I think they are creating a monster which could come back to haunt them in the near future....if breeders don't want a filly foal,then they need to seriously consider if they should be in the breeding game. I think it undermines,undervalues the stallion,and sends a clear message that the studs don't value 50% of their stallions off-spring!

I know it's been a topic before but I too think these filly discounts by studs are very negative and only serve to further devalue the commodity which is a TB filly.

The studs should give the 50% service fee to funded fillies/mares races in the studs' names - and extra bonuses if a filly by their stallion takes out the race.

I think the refunds for fillies are unimaginative at best - and at worst, they are downright destructive in an industry where many are already struggling to stay in it.

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I think the filly deals offered by some studs are excellent.

Face facts, only the Premier sale lots are likely to return a profit if you are selling yearlings.No one wants them because they have little chance of being onsold.

And if you wish to race you will find the handicapping system discriminates against fillies.

NZTR could fix this overnight but for some unknown reason they have not done so --yet.

Evidently those in charge have no basic knowledge of horses and racing.

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All excellent points Nod. Personally I give credit to any stud offering discounts on fillies, as they are not saleable under normal circumstances. I can't see that the discount downgrades fillies as they are already largely unwanted. We've had a few trainers thru our place these last couple of months looking for horse to buy and they NEVER ask to see the fillies. We have an outstandng Patapan filly here who is the pick of them in the paddock. Time after time people ask who she is. When they find out shes a filly they just keep walking!.

Quit bagging the studs that are actually trying to do something to help breeders like me who pay out their hard earned dollars.

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I know it's been a topic before but I too think these filly discounts by studs are very negative and only serve to further devalue the commodity which is a TB filly.

The studs should give the 50% service fee to funded fillies/mares races in the studs' names - and extra bonuses if a filly by their stallion takes out the race.

I think the refunds for fillies are unimaginative at best - and at worst, they are downright destructive in an industry where many are already struggling to stay in it.

Can you explain as to why you think such a plan is unimaginative and negative?

All breeders can expect 50% fillies annually as any potential foal crop.

They cost the same to raise, feed and prep for sale. But the returns for fillies in a sale ring are demonstrably(?) shorter in a sale ring.

Put them into training and very few fillies generate much of a return in the RTR sale ring.

So you race them, and unless you have the extreme good fortune to get something special, then there isn't much of a market for the filly or mare unless they are successful in black type terms.

Jess, I believe you need to open your eyes and look at what breeders are telling you........worldwide!

So please explain to me how the fillies discount can be negative?

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Here,here John.... I know,believe me where you are coming from.... Well done with Blancpain on Saturday....My apologies to Penny as I really thought it was a listed race.San and I were there to help her celebrate. ..It was last year...I even asked 2 influential Committee people who also said it was a Black Print race......

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Here,here John.... I know,believe me where you are coming from.... Well done with Blancpain on Saturday....My apologies to Penny as I really thought it was a listed race.San and I were there to help her celebrate. ..It was last year...I even asked 2 influential Committee people who also said it was a Black Print race......

It was a great thrill to win whether black type or not. Hopefully that will happen in the future with her. She loves to compete and tries and goes hard which you just have to enjoy.

Going to make a good broodmare!

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"7 The value of filly foals has not been comprehensively addressed by studmasters. Perhaps a free or significantly discounted service for the following season could be offered as some compensation for the unfortunate mare owners. Some of our lesser stallions do have such an initiative but it should be more widely spread."

Woodbine...this is a key issue for me. 1/2 the time you get a filly. The market takes a good correct colt but you have to find

an outlet for good but undervalued fillies. This is a no go area in the industry at the moment and is the primary reson why I am breeding less this year. The risk of the filly is stoppoing me breeding horses - and I have stallion shares - so its pretty bad. A filly is near impossible to place with trainers at the moment given the lack of owners/money.

Until this is addressed the stallion stading studs will see the small/boutique breeder's exit or downsize. FACT

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- I'm not sure which part of what I said you don't understand!

I see the filly discounts as a short term gain for stud (might get them a few more mares) and owner (some get a refund).

But rather than SOLVE the filly/mare problem - it just perpetuates it. Discounting them at the service end of the process merely feeds into a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think it is short-sighted and small-picture stuff.

There is nothing altruistic about the refunds at all;it won't help the industry as a whole.

It is not going to make fillies more valuable - probably the reverse.

And it doesn't help owners to race a profitable (or at least viable) horse if they happen to breed a filly.

Afterall - the level of stallion which offers the refunds typically means about $2,000 refunded - and what's that these days? - about a months training fees!

Agree with Nod that NZTR needs to act. Positive measures at the racing end of the process is going to have a more sustainable, industry-enhancing effect and add value to the commodity by providing more chance of a filly being a viable, profitable racing proposition.

Refunds in service fees is not going to mean any less fillies consigned to the scrap heap.

Hey - there's foal sexing now John - I'm picking you might be the sort who would be keen to have your filly-bearing mare aborted at 65 days??

Each of us is entitled to our opinion - but sorry, I can't see however that refunds for fillies solves anything.

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Jess,

You comment is quite right, that a refund on a small service fee is not that much of a kick back in the event you have a filly.

The real issue is: noting that we should always question shold we be breeding this mare....

1. there is little market appeal for a filly compared to a colt

2. the on-going costs of a horse you can't place or sell is the issue.

3. this issue stops people breeding mares

Purhaps you would be more interested in a stud led fillies series that helps underpin the economics of racing a filly, and enhances value when encorages them to breed on.

But we need to acknowledge that currently there is no answer. Nod has the best idea (handicaping changes) so far...and thats just because he's an old head. Second best idea is more recognised stakes / series for fillies, third best ?? up to you.

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Whilst it sounds good to pay only a 1/2 stud fee if a filly is born, in reality it would refect in lowering the income of the studs who have outlaid many thousands in providing the stallion. Maybe they could offer that if a filly is born, $1000 (random figure) discount on the following years use of their stallion could be negotiated. They are then guaranteed of a return service for their stallion & the filly foals arrival, if not wanted perhaps more palatable to the broodmare owner.

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At present broodmare owners are taking all the risks of breeding filly foals, not the stallion owners. Ask the owners of the 60+ weanling fillies who sold their foals for less than the sales entry and freight costs. Many of these fillies were physically correct and good racing prospects.

I appreciate that stud masters stand their stallions at service fees that must cover the capital cost etc of the horse. The issue that is not addressed when setting service fees is what is the market value of such stallion's progeny in the auction ring. This in my view is the correct method to value a stallion's service fee. Many breeders are not sending mares to stud this season which is a great shame as the racing industry will be the loser.

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- I'm not sure which part of what I said you don't understand!

I see the filly discounts as a short term gain for stud (might get them a few more mares) and owner (some get a refund).

But rather than SOLVE the filly/mare problem - it just perpetuates it. Discounting them at the service end of the process merely feeds into a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think it is short-sighted and small-picture stuff.

There is nothing altruistic about the refunds at all]

Jess, you obviously have an impression that is based on some values that are somewhat different to mine.

I would like to get as much support back from the studmasters as I can, and I see the filly refund as a measure of that support.

Given that I have been in this industry many decades and have witnessed what has happened to the industry over that time, your helicopter view is simply unrealistic. For the "good of the industry" what sort of statement is that? Do you really think that such a filly refund is detrimental to the industry, I ask you again, tell me how it can be?

My question to you was not "how is it going to make them more valuable?" I asked you to explain yourself. And, as best you can, you obviously have, but haven't answered the question at all.

Nod's suggestion has been on the NZTR Board table for many years now, courtesy of the NZTBA, but they (NZTR) fail to act on it, which isn't at all surprising, as they cannot seem to act at all anyway.

With regard to technology and usage. Whilst I was on the TBA Council in the 90's, I suggested microchipping was the future, much to the scoffing of some top studmasters on the Council at the time, and here we have it introduced ten years later. This is meant to illustrate to you that of course I am aware of gender determination and no, I wouldn't participate in your suggestion. To me, we need every foal we can get on the ground. It's what happens to the foal after that point that has to be addressed.

I know of a few studmasters who shoot filly foals simply because they are not worth keeping, but they do not pay good money to get them and they have their own choices to make. Non studmaster breeders do not have that choice. You get what nature decides you should have.

When you can answer the question I asked, please do so with some basis rather than just your thoughts.

At the moment breeders, mainly small, are leaving the industry in droves. If you don't think a discount for a filly foal is worth providing then have a conversation with Gerry Harvey about his business model, he may be able to convince you of the value of discounts. And who actually pays the discounted Harvey Norman value, it ain't Gerry, but the manufacturers or suppliers.

So Jess, we do disagree, but I think the 2010/2011 foal crop will endorse my perspective. Fewer foals born, but the number at the sales will still be the same.

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I concur with John. Of course if A.I. were introduced the "filly problem" would vanish. Manipulation of sperm to only impregnate mares with "male" spermatoza as opposed to "female" would ensure fillies are far and few between. No worries about having enough to breed from as the top K1 mares would also be having 10 or 12 foals a year via embryo transplant. 98% of K1 would consist of the stock of two dozen mares and 4 or 5 stallions. A whole scary new world isn't it ? Hardly one in which I see the small breeder profitting.

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hmm not a world I want to invest in...just seems a bit...well...artificial.

i know that your words are ment to be thought prevoking, and I do think that a filly is very valuable if you prove one. its just that "wastage" with horses now starts if you have a non-K1 filly at birth...ie half of most of the crop! rather than if it get injured or doesnt make it in training for some reason...

apart from reduce the risk and exposure by breeding less...

1. filly's series, easy

2. WFA scale changes, easy

3. breeders incentives (works in France)

4. VOBIS, FAMIS, stud/region based incentive series...its a new world now..

is it harder than this?

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I concur with John. Of course if A.I. were introduced the "filly problem" would vanish. Manipulation of sperm to only impregnate mares with "male" spermatoza as opposed to "female" would ensure fillies are far and few between. No worries about having enough to breed from as the top K1 mares would also be having 10 or 12 foals a year via embryo transplant. 98% of K1 would consist of the stock of two dozen mares and 4 or 5 stallions. A whole scary new world isn't it ? Hardly one in which I see the small breeder profitting.

You started out o k by wishing for AI but then the hallucinations crept in Peter.

With AI in all the major and other equine breeds I cannot find any evidence that supports your scaremongering nonsense. :rolleyes:

can you??

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You started out o k by wishing for AI but then the hallucinations crept in Peter.

With AI in all the major and other equine breeds I cannot find any evidence that supports your scaremongering nonsense. :rolleyes:

can you??

No breed as commercial as the thoroughbred has ever gone down the A.I. route.

Scaremongering ? surely the owners of the top mares and the leading stallions would want as many opportunities to make money as they could possibly have. If Eight Carat were still alive and you owned her would you rather breed 12 foals a year or 1, Nod ?

If you owned Redoute's Choice or Zabeel would you want to breed 600 by him or 200 ? It's a no-brainer. If you think commercial breeders won't take advantage of the opportunity to increase their output several-fold you haven't given the issue enough thought.

What's most laughable about the push for A.I. is the incredibly misguided belief that it will greatly help the "small breeder" and somehow disempower the corporate multi-national stud juggernauts. It's a serious miscalculation.

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Peter, whilst the owner of

Redoutes Choice might wish to breed 600 mares per year the advent of AI will see all stallion owners having to advertise the number of mares they will take.

It is obvious that a limit of 100 mares would attract a much higher fee than a limit of 300 for instance and breeders have become aware of the devaluation caused by studmasters greedy for huge numbers.

Quite a few Aussie breeders got badly burned going to a highly priced stallion taking "unlimited" numbers --result? an over supplied market.

AI offers advantages to all breeders think along the lines of health, travel, sex selection. I do not know why you put embryo transfer in the AI basket, there is no connection that I can see.

Indeed, it used to be allowed under Australian Stud book rules.

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Peter, whilst the owner of

Redoutes Choice might wish to breed 600 mares per year the advent of AI will see all stallion owners having to advertise the number of mares they will take.

It is obvious that a limit of 100 mares would attract a much higher fee than a limit of 300 for instance and breeders have become aware of the devaluation caused by studmasters greedy for huge numbers.

Quite a few Aussie breeders got badly burned going to a highly priced stallion taking "unlimited" numbers --result? an over supplied market.

AI offers advantages to all breeders think along the lines of health, travel, sex selection. I do not know why you put embryo transfer in the AI basket, there is no connection that I can see.

Indeed, it used to be allowed under Australian Stud book rules.

I don't see sex selection as an positive but rather to the detriment of the breed as it would diminish lesser families due to lack of female members carrying on the line as obviously the families would be saturated with colts for obvious reasons, we would narrow the genepool down to only the few influential families and see the rest "phased out".

A good example would be Miss Distinction. 10 years ago she was not commercial, if only colts had been produced from her and the family we would have no G I Jane, Miss Jessie Jane, Katie Lee, San Bernadino and Banchee!

How is that a positive?

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