Moody Speaks Out

[chevy86 2,704]

Getting back to the original posting there is no doubt that Bailey and his team have overshot a reasonable brief on poulticing and the idea of putting a "plant" in any stable is reprehensible. Moody's response is valid on those issues but at least the authorities in Oz are trying to expedite proceedings dealing with the cobalt cancer. Just maybe, trainers over there need to re-assume control of their operations and not be at the mercy of vets with a pecuniary interest in dispensing "tonics".

(Despite posting #24 I felt I should "balance" my retreat)

[Midget 4,489]

And I'll offer a balanced reply.

Your comments were inflammatory but my response was too caustic so I apologise.

My position is this, I cannot understand why the Feds don't issue a public statement stating exactly what's causing the majority of these cobalt positives, name the products ( not cobalt chloride but VB12 derivatives ) and state exactly what's causing the problems, ie injecting horses either on the day or within about six hours of racing, or multiple times at excessive dose rates causing "loading".

That's Cobalt dealt with, now this matter of poultices and/or ice wraps.

Just make a sensible rule, if it's non medical let trainers do it, put ice on their legs, let trainers rinse their horses mouths out after saddling, it's just common sense and age old practice FFS, it's not a hanging offence and it'll never hurt a horse but it might give them some pain relief or reduce inflammation.

[Portfolio 728]

And I'll offer a balanced reply.

Your comments were inflammatory but my response was too caustic so I apologise.

My position is this, I cannot understand why the Feds don't issue a public statement stating exactly what's causing the majority of these cobalt positives, name the products ( not cobalt chloride but VB12 derivatives ) and state exactly what's causing the problems, ie injecting horses either on the day or within about six hours of racing, or multiple times at excessive dose rates causing "loading".

That's Cobalt dealt with, now this matter of poultices and/or ice wraps.

Just make a sensible rule, if it's non medical let trainers do it, put ice on their legs, let trainers rinse their horses mouths out after saddling, it's just common sense and age old practice FFS, it's not a hanging offence and it'll never hurt a horse but it might give them some pain relief or reduce inflammation.

 

Midget,

You are no doubt more qualified to comment on this issue....as I know very little about it.

 

But my main point was the fact that it does not seem an even playing field at the moment with some trainers.

 

As you train horses.....have you ever suspected other rival trainers of gaining an edge that concerned you? I do not expect names or anything.....But would be interesting to hear your comments.

 

[Cunnamulla 73]

Moody lost the plot in that interview. He stated that the stewards thought he was a cheat, but they couldn't prove it, so therefore they weren't doing their job properly, and it should be the stewards who are sacked and walk away from racing. That's the most irrational piece of bullshit I've heard in a long time.

[Midget 4,489]

Portfolio I don't think like that, I've never been jealous or suspicious of any trainer as I have the utmost respect for what they do and how they do it, and thus I applaud everything each and everyone of them achieves, besides there's absolutely zero reason for anyone to cheat or try to cheat in NZ because the returns don't justify it.

Australia is slightly different because there's so much at stake, but now that tissue and blood samples can be frozen and examined years later anyone who cheated or used PED's would be deranged, or just a plain dirty old criminal...hold on....

Cunna, Moods took offence at the attempt by their authorities to plant a staff member as a spy in his yard, after denying as much their authorities have admitted they planned to do exactly that but the plan failed the risk assessment test so it didn't proceed.

The person they tried to recruit has been named.

Moods should sue them IMO for damages to his considerable reputation.

I remind you Moods has ONE cobalt positive and the levels suggest it's a VB12 derivative not cobalt salt.

If you are the type who likes to point the finger in life you'll find far better targets to aim at than Moods, and here's a little something to titillate you.

A certain married Ozzie based steward ( has NZ connections ) is a recidivist, shagged the married lawyer who was head of integrity in his racing jurisdiction, shagged a young cadet steward during her integration camp, created havoc, then left that position ( horizontal position I'd suggest ) did a lap of the world, ended up back in Ozz officiating, and now is alleged ( got that, alleged ) to have intercepted and charged a trainer whose wife he just happened to be " enjoying " unbeknownst to the poor old trainer, seized the said trainers cell phone, downloaded all the texts etc.. supplied the trainers wife with all the relevant details extracted ( presumably whilst shacked up in a cheap motel with her ) which in turn allowed the wife of the charged trainer to ascertain that not only was she having an away game, but so was the trainer !!!

That's good stewardship for you, Australian style !!!!!

I'll conclude by telling you a funny story about Moods.

He was interviewed by a charming young racing lady whilst here at the sales a couple of years ago, a sort of TV type Q&A exercise, the young lady asked Moods " would you have any tips or advice for the younger members of the racing community, those just starting out?" Moods replied, with a straight face " if you're having a threesome always include your wife ".

You might also not know that he's a military historian, he's a willing and generous mentor to young trainers, and he's definitely not a racing " lifer ", if he says he'll walk he will, and the industry will be the loser because they have created a terrible mess by shooting first and asking the questions later IMO.

[Portfolio 728]

Thanks for the reply Midget....

 

You are a better person than me.....when you look at some results over the years......I do feel suspicious!!

[Fartoomuch 1,376]

The latest that i have seen on this topical matter

 

In other stewards news, Peter Moody has avoided being charged at the conclusion of an inquiry into a suspected race day medication administration to Noela’s Choice on Saturday, June 20 has been concluded.

Moody was out of the country on holiday at the time, Noela's Choice withdrawn from a race at Moonee Valley after the Compliance and Assurance team suspected the horse had received treatment on the morning of race day.

After carefully reviewing all evidence obtained during the investigation and considering legal advice, stewards decided no charges will be laid as they are not satisfied a race day administration of a medication can be proved to the requisite legal standard.

[what a post 811]

Midget, While i respect your passion and  knowledge i think your dreaming when you state there is zero reason to cheat in nz and because of that you dont think it happens.  If you really were representing those at the "coal face" as you put it, then you should make comments more representative of what they are thinking on this issue.   Maybe we just move in different circles?

[what a post 811]

Perhaps the moody supporters on here should read the latest article by Patrick Bartley of the sydney morning herald as this fellow has covered this case from the start .I realise it is his opinion but he has no reason for bias.

[Cunnamulla 73]

Thanks What A Post, nice story by Bartley. He's one of the few who are willing to tell it how it is. The fourth paragraph made me chuckle - "For the third time this week Moody threatened to resign from racing  .... by Thursday night he may be looking at a convenience store in Papua New Guinea."

[Midget 4,489]

Bartley is Fairfax, and that organization seems to peddle the establishment line, for example Bartley has written articles tacitly supporting the notion that planting spies within stables is ok.

Furthermore Bartley conveniently neglects to clarify what non pharmaceutical grade cobalt chloride salt does, as distinct from the bound form found in proprietary products such as Hemo15, or many other water soluble vitamin and mineral supplements.

I suppose such facts count as an " inconvenient truth " to the Bartleys of this world, just as they do to other conspirators amongst us.

Bartley's sensationalism suggests Cobalt is toxic, and that using it is a crime, but neither applies, as with 99.9999% of elements or compounds Cobalt is not at all toxic, in fact it's an essential element for bodily function, and it ( like all other elements ) only becomes toxic at very high doses, the high doses as seen in the Darren Smith case but certainly not as seen in the Moody case.

There's quite some difference but of course that's another " inconvenient truth ".

Bartley also claims Cobalt increases EPO levels, that's not true either. Cobalt stabilizes HIF, nothing more, as does Vitamin C at high doses, Xenon, anaerobic exercise, and any hypoxia environment including Mexico City, Johannesburg, Colorado, Taupo, Darren Weir's officially sanctioned hypoxia chamber, the "special high altitude tents cyclist and boxers sleep in", the high altitude chamber within the gym the Warriors train in at Penrose, and a variety of other environments used by aviators  etc.

None of the above gives Bartley balance or offers a rational perspective of course, but then again he's just trying to sell newspapers I suppose so why should he bother with facts??

[Guest 2Admin2]

 the high altitude chamber within the gym the Warriors train in at Penrose, and a variety of other environments used by aviators  etc.

 

Maybe the Warriors should use a more down to earth training environment? 

Edited September 20, 2015 by 2Admin2

[what a post 811]

Midget. Your a real tiger. 

[what a post 811]

I mean that in a good way.

[Leggy 4,076]

Not picking on any one manufacturer, but you can rock up to your local Farmlands and pick up a few  tubes of this stuff. It's an oral supplement unlikely to cause a positive but it clearly says B Boost contains no prohibited substances so is safe to use prior to competition, when it just as clearly contains cobalt. It also recommends giving it up to 12 hours prior to competition, i.e. on the day, which is legal for oral supplements I think?

 

B Boost paste contains high levels of all the essential B group vitamins in one single oral dose syringe.  It also contains Betaine, which is converted to dimethylglycine in the liver. DMG reduces lactic acid build-up during strenuous exercise.

B Boost contains no prohibited substances so is safe to use prior to competition and should be administered 12 to 24 hours prior to competition, or on a regular basis for poor appetite, or to assist recovery after sickness. Also assists recovery from traveling long distances.

Daily dose rates: Full 30ml syringe when required

Active ingredients per 30ml dose:                             

Betaine                    1500mg                                                  

Vitamin B1               180mg

Vitamin B2               180mg

Vitamin B3               500mg

Vitamin B6               150mg

Vitamin B12             1500µg

Folic Acid                 150mg

Inositol                     750mg

 

[Michael Roustoby 292]

Please Remember Moodys explanation was thoroughly tested over a long period of time and the levels in the test didnt get close to the levels from the swab.

Either cobalt has been used or "raceday treatment" with another product containing cobalt e.g VAM 

 

[Lee270744 684]

Bartley's sensationalism suggests Cobalt is toxic, and that using it is a crime, but neither applies, as with 99.9999% of elements or compounds Cobalt is not at all toxic, in fact it's an essential element for bodily function, and it ( like all other elements ) only becomes toxic at very high doses, the high doses as seen in the Darren Smith case but certainly not as seen in the Moody case.

Im not sure here is it toxic or not?

[Leggy 4,076]

Please Remember Moodys explanation was thoroughly tested over a long period of time and the levels in the test didnt get close to the levels from the swab.

Either cobalt has been used or "raceday treatment" with another product containing cobalt e.g VAM 

 

I largely agree Michael but not quite. Nor does the science I'd suggest. I don't think that raceday treatment is necessarily implied by those levels if cobalt containing products such as VAM are being used.

Controlling the misuse of cobalt in horses
Emmie N. M. Ho,a* George H. M. Chan,a Terence S. M. Wan,a* Peter Curl,b
Christopher M. Riggs,c Michael J. Hurleyc and David Sykesd
Cobalt is a well-established inducer of hypoxia-like responses, which can cause gene modulation at the hypoxia inducible factor pathway to induce erythropoietin transcription. Cobalt salts are orally active, inexpensive, and easily accessible. It is an attractive blood doping agent for enhancing aerobic performance. Indeed, recent intelligence and investigations have confirmed cobalt was being abused in equine sports. In this paper, population surveys of total cobalt in raceday samples were conducted using inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry (ICP-MS). Urinary threshold of 75ng/mL and plasma threshold of 2 ng/mL could be proposed for the control of cobalt misuse in raceday or in-competition samples. Results from administration trials with cobalt containing supplements showed that common supplements could elevate urinary and plasma cobalt levels above the proposed thresholds within 24h of administration. It would therefore be necessary to ban the use of cobalt-containing supplements on raceday as well as on the day before racing in order to implement and enforce the proposed thresholds. Since the abuse with huge quantities of cobalt salts can be done during training while the use of legitimate cobalt-containing supplements are also allowed, different urinary and plasma cobalt thresholds would be required to control cobalt abuse in non-raceday or out-of-competition samples. This could be achieved by setting the thresholds above the maximum urinary and plasma cobalt concentrations observed or anticipated from the normal use of legitimate cobalt-containing supplements. Urinary threshold of 2000 ng/mL and plasma threshold of 10ng/mL were thus proposed for the control of cobalt abuse in non-raceday or out-of-competition samples.
Copyright © 2014 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
Keywords: cobalt; inductively coupled plasma-mass spectrometry; urine; plasma; horse; threshold

 

[what a post 811]

Leggy, i"m no chemist(if i  was i would have trained a few more winners)  but are you suggesting the 410 level returned by moodys horse is possible done legally.  If you are why are overseas jurisdictions  enforcing levels half of what they enforce in australia. Are they all wrong? If you are then does it not follow that you think all the other trainers who had levels between 290 and 670 should be let off,despite all the  evidence of administration against some.    Would you personally use on one of your horses a go fast supplement up to the legal levels if  experts believe  said supplement would have detrimental effects on your horses long term health?

[Leggy 4,076]

What a post, I don't claim to be a chemist either. My biochemistry studies are a long time ago but I can still read and generally understand the administration studies available, though there are others on here better equipped than I am to interpret those.

Lidari's readings of 380-410 are clearly not legal as they are above the threshold. However, it is irrefutable that such levels can be achieved by the likes of standard dose VAM injections PRIOR to raceday and that repeated and/or higher doses such as are sometimes used increase the chances. It seems pretty clear that raceday administration of oral B12 supplements could also do so.

The above mentioned study for example, clearly concludes that. So I would say yes, the levels in the Lidari case could be reached from legitimate supportive VB12 therapy that is only illegal because the cobalt in the VB12 causes the threshold to be exceeded.

The results from these administration trials would suggest that legitimate cobalt-containing injectables should be banned not just on raceday but preferably on the day before racing in order to ensure that the proposed thresholds are not inadvertently breached in raceday samples. The use of oral supplements containing relatively high cobalt content should also be restricted to non-racedays. http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/pdf/generic/Controllingthemisuseofcobaltinhorses_dta1719.pdf

To answer your final question, no of course I wouldn't use "a go fast supplement up to the legal levels if experts believe said supplement would have detrimental effects on your horses long term health?" That said, there is absolutely no evidence that I'm aware of that VB12 in even quite high doses has any such effect.

Hemo-15 81

[Midget 4,489]

Leggy is correct, according to all available data water soluble VB12 preparations, injectable or oral, often with free Cobalt in the preparation, can definitely give you the levels described IF given within approximately 12 hours of racing, and probably most effectively at the 6 hour mark.

Such preparations are not toxic at the levels described and given that they're water soluble it's extremely unlikely the body would ever retain them long enough to be toxic, because, to put it crudely, they're pissed out in a few short hours.

The half life is about 6 hours normally according to those who're supposed to know.

Go take a Berocca if you want to see how long it takes water soluble vitamins to pass through your system.

Where you guys (WAP) fail in your argument is that you confuse intravenous administration of non pharmaceutical grade cobalt chloride salt with preparations like Hemo 15.

I suspect some confuse it deliberately, or maybe through ignorance, perhaps rank stupidity, or because it suits the argument of those who're rabid with envy, but they're usually from Rangiora, actually if you're from Rangiora or Amberly tick the box marked "all of the above".

Based on the above you'd argue that the Moody's of this world will argue they didn't use IV Cobalt Chloride but rather proprietary OTC or prescription type products, so they should get off, but if they admit using IV drips with cobalt salt in the solution, or sourcing unregistered products of dubious extraction then they're in quite some bother.

I suppose it'll come down to corroborating evidence either way, as it did with Sam Kavanagh and Tom Brennan, and that will determine the penalty.

the NZ case is interesting. I know absolutely nothing about it but given that it's progressing so slowly you can guarantee it's not a simple case of using Cobalt Chloride so they'll escape largely unpunished. Strictly my guess of course.

 

 

[Leggy 4,076]

 why are overseas jurisdictions  enforcing levels half of what they enforce in australia. Are they all wrong?

Just to respond to this bit what a post. They are not at all wrong. So if you take Hong Kong as an example, alongside the cobalt threshold, they have another rule that bans all treatment from acceptance time. That way the problem that we have here and in Oz is avoided.

[what a post 811]

Thanks  for that leggy.  Midget i did actually live in rangiora a few years ago for a short time so your reference to it has me concerned. All the time i thought people were very nice and helpful,but it appears you think i may have been brain washed. What is the with holding period for such thinking to leave my system before i can think logically again.

[Midget 4,489]

Living in Rangiora is a bit like voting Labour, or going to Christ's College, being in the Boy Scouts, flower arranging or listening to Duran Duran, just pretend it never happened and hope no one ever finds out.

I suppose David Cameron might feel the same way this morning, and he certainly won't be asking for a pulled pork sandwich ever again.

How do you like your pork WAP? Tied to a fence?

 

 

Edited September 21, 2015 by Midget

[N1MUE 1,877]

Reading through this thread, and comparing to earlier threads, it would appear that Midget's time in court and preparing for court has made him incredibly articulate.  Well done Midget - very impressive - I guess every cloud has a silver lining.