Tatura 121 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 At $13500 Pentire surely must be the best value stallion,whose book is not closed,in NZ at the moment.When one looks at his stats he must be good value. Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 At $13500 Pentire surely must be the best value stallion,whose book is not closed,in NZ at the moment.When one looks at his stats he must be good value. No doubt about that, only fashion stopping him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,876 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 No doubt about that, only fashion stopping him. No, I think that it a long held prejudice against older stallions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby 160 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 I think you'll find he's still doing the business in Australia one of our key markets $2.2m in earnings for last season old but still good Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 if your breeding to race hes been around long enough to show the mares he really likes and there's many, my pick is mares carrying Tudor Minstrel (one of fastest horses ever ) on their male line Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 have moved Blue Peter, sire of Pentire's 5th dam Blue Cross forward one generation here but love the mirror image it creates using the names on the male lines of the mares and the position of the duplications as brood-mare sires in the stallion. IMO one of the easiest ways to line breed to a stallion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 No, I think that it a long held prejudice against older stallions. Exactly fashion. Fashion dictates that an unproven stallion can stand for $10k at the same stud and get more mares than one of the best stallions at stud in NZ who stands for just $3k more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzy 143 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 To be fair it's not all fashion its economics. Pentire is a very good stallion but perhaps a notch below real top class. He always has a few yearlings which sell well and often for very good money - $200k plus. However on average his yearlings can be a bit hard to sell and are often around the $40 - $50k level. That makes a service fee of $13500 about right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted September 16, 2015 I agree with Fitzy. But an analysis of what they have recently averaged is not the only factor. 'Some' 15.3 shorter stallions leave smaller horses that are too much of a risk to even take to Karaka so are not put in. I am not saying smaller horses won't end up running but it always helps at Karaka to have a bit of leg and size. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 I've always thought that the fashion was the economics of it all. In that you can pay a lower stud fee for an unproven stallion based on fashion , hype or hope and the sales scenario you describe above takes place. As for the size of the stallion I take your point, however there are stallions out there that haven't even got a horse on the ground (so how do you know what size they are leaving not to mention other traits) yet they command a higher fee than a stallion that has left 43 stakes winners. Go figure. As for being a notch below the best, whose the best ,Savabeel? He has left 42 stakeswinners serving 13 less mares than Pentire has in his NZ career, 64% wnrs/rnrs compared to Pentire at 63%. But he costs nearly 10x the amount , if you can get in. Breeder and Ashoka 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey I think you have got your numbers wrong versus Savabeel. You better recheck them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey I think you have got your numbers wrong versus Savabeel. You better recheck them. Which one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey I think your are wrong on your facts in saying 'Savabeel has left 42 SW serving 13 less mares than Pentire has in his NZ career". Are you comparing SW to foals of Savabeel versus Pentire in NZ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey I think your are wrong on your facts in saying 'Savabeel has left 42 SW serving 13 less mares than Pentire has in his NZ career". Are you comparing SW to foals of Savabeel versus Pentire in NZ? Ok, Studbook says Pentire has served 1444 mares in total , Savabeel 1431 mares in total. To date Pentire has a total 43 stakeswinners & Savabeel 42 Stakeswinner from what I can see. Yes I know Pentire has served for longer etc and Savabeel larger books, but if this is correct at nearly 10x the fee its interesting. Has Pentire shuttled is that what you mean? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey you are way out on a number of fronts. 1.SW over mares served has never been a guide. S/W To foals or S/W to Runners. 2.Yes Pentire shuttled for many years to Japan. 3.Savabeel has served his biggest books of mares the last 3 to 4 years and Pentire his smallest. Why would you measure SW of crops that have not raced yet etc. The last 4 years ( excluding this year ) Savabeel has served 721 mares and Pentire only 197. So the Savabeel 1431 mares served take off four years is 710 mares served for 470 foals. And Pentire 1444 mares served take off four years is 1247 mares for 859 foals.( these are NZ served mares and not what her served in Japan). Check the SW and you are way out Huey. Less the crops that are not born or have not raced or have not completed there 3yo year I have Savabeel at 8.2% SW to Foals and about 10% SW to Runners. With Pentire in total worldwide I have him at 3.3% SW to Foals and about 4.2% SW to Runners. I have not done the full analysis if you take off Pentire's foals that were bred in Japan etc but the numbers would not change what I have put down much give that he has got higher SW to foals and runners in NZ compared to when he stood outside NZ. Look forward to peoples thoughts on my logic. fitzy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatura 121 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Pentire is privately owned Savabeel is syndicated and probably has had a better class of mare compared to Pentire.Both are very good stallions but I do think Pentire has had to do it the hard way and with the prejudice of size and age against him I think he is good value for an exceptional stallion. Great to see his sire sons now standing. Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey you are way out on a number of fronts. 1.SW over mares served has never been a guide. S/W To foals or S/W to Runners. 2.Yes Pentire shuttled for many years to Japan. 3.Savabeel has served his biggest books of mares the last 3 to 4 years and Pentire his smallest. Why would you measure SW of crops that have not raced yet etc. The last 4 years ( excluding this year ) Savabeel has served 721 mares and Pentire only 197. So the Savabeel 1431 mares served take off four years is 710 mares served for 470 foals. And Pentire 1444 mares served take off four years is 1247 mares for 859 foals.( these are NZ served mares and not what her served in Japan). Check the SW and you are way out Huey. Less the crops that are not born or have not raced or have not completed there 3yo year I have Savabeel at 8.2% SW to Foals and about 10% SW to Runners. With Pentire in total worldwide I have him at 3.3% SW to Foals and about 4.2% SW to Runners. I have not done the full analysis if you take off Pentire's foals that were bred in Japan etc but the numbers would not change what I have put down much give that he has got higher SW to foals and runners in NZ compared to when he stood outside NZ. Look forward to peoples thoughts on my logic. Fair enough you make some good points, I wasn't aware he'd shuttled. Any idea what number his stakes winners were in Japan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Huey you are way out on a number of fronts. 1.SW over mares served has never been a guide. S/W To foals or S/W to Runners. 2.Yes Pentire shuttled for many years to Japan. 3.Savabeel has served his biggest books of mares the last 3 to 4 years and Pentire his smallest. Why would you measure SW of crops that have not raced yet etc. The last 4 years ( excluding this year ) Savabeel has served 721 mares and Pentire only 197. So the Savabeel 1431 mares served take off four years is 710 mares served for 470 foals. And Pentire 1444 mares served take off four years is 1247 mares for 859 foals.( these are NZ served mares and not what her served in Japan). Check the SW and you are way out Huey. Less the crops that are not born or have not raced or have not completed there 3yo year I have Savabeel at 8.2% SW to Foals and about 10% SW to Runners. With Pentire in total worldwide I have him at 3.3% SW to Foals and about 4.2% SW to Runners. I have not done the full analysis if you take off Pentire's foals that were bred in Japan etc but the numbers would not change what I have put down much give that he has got higher SW to foals and runners in NZ compared to when he stood outside NZ. Look forward to peoples thoughts on my logic. I can understand the logic in stks wnrs to foals but isn't fertility a similar trait as a stallion leaving small horses? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classic one 12 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 Pentire sired about 290 foals in Japan and 4 stakes winners. He also stood in Germany. Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 been trying to tell you, its not the stallion, its the mare, with the right mare you can quadruple you chances with any stallion who's satisfied with 3 % or 5 % or even 10 % I can understand why so many leave the industry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 can some one please tell me why Zabeel only left 3 Group One winners when crossed with 129 Danehill mares (one of those mares produced two of them) so only 1 from the other 128 and yet he left five Group One winners from 30 Vice Regal mares. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted September 17, 2015 my calculations if Zabeel was the MAN he should have left about 16 Group One winners when crossed with Danehill mares Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...