Flag

[Trump 2,741]

What a joke. Take a bow NZ'ers and be prepared to be rogered big time. You've stuck to a flag so close to Prince Charles, Camilla, Australia, that you should be ashamed. The alternative was a cracker. Unfortunately, I suspect many of the status quo voters have probably never ventured offshore or, don't want to forge their own identity for their children and grandchildren going forward. Rejoice ye loyalists and long live under the undies of the Empire. 

 

[barryb 2,064]

3 hours ago, Trump said:

What a joke. Take a bow NZ'ers and be prepared to be rogered big time. You've stuck to a flag so close to Prince Charles, Camilla, Australia, that you should be ashamed. The alternative was a cracker. Unfortunately, I suspect many of the status quo voters have probably never ventured offshore or, don't want to forge their own identity for their children and grandchildren going forward. Rejoice ye loyalists and long live under the undies of the Empire. 

 

Great post Trump, & sorry The Crucible apathy was huge, many who voted for the status quo did so because of the media hype around the change & voted accordingly. They never considered what Trump has posted here.

I remember the media influencing the outcome of another referendum, a disastrous voting system got selected MMP, that gives disproportionate say to minor parties. The best and most logical vote was STV but it never got a look in under what was then a very left leaning media.

[rdytdy 5,343]

Come on Barry and Trump, everything throughout this process was engineered for pro change with Key right behind it, right down to having the fern flag on top on the final ballot paper. 

In the end democracy has spoken and you can't complain about that.

Obviously most people thought the alternative was not a cracker Trump.  

    

[crustyngrizzly 1,701]

Isn't it ironic that on the eve of one of the most significant religious festivals in the world,where the Boss dies and then rises again,we find out that John Key and Richie McCaw don't walk on water.

[rdytdy 5,343]

Change will happen and we will have a new flag there is nothing more sure. If it doesn't happen beforehand it will be a certainty when we become a republic. 

The push for this right now by the Prime Minister was his pet project to have completed whilst he was in office. The timing was wrong and there was a touch of arrogance about it which may have lead to some protest votes and non votes. The end result $26 million flushed down the toilet. 

I am not adverse to changing the flag but did not like the alternative put up against the current flag. The choice was easy.     

[Alphonse-Gabriel 101]

7 hours ago, Trump said:

What a joke. Take a bow NZ'ers and be prepared to be rogered big time. You've stuck to a flag so close to Prince Charles, Camilla, Australia, that you should be ashamed. The alternative was a cracker. Unfortunately, I suspect many of the status quo voters have probably never ventured offshore or, don't want to forge their own identity for their children and grandchildren going forward. Rejoice ye loyalists and long live under the undies of the Empire. 

 

Haha...what a load of .

NZ is part of the Commonwealth and much of NZ including our flag reflects that fact. I wouldn't have lost any sleep had the flag changed but I dislike the whole way it was handled. All about one man's ego and arrogance,meanwhile essential services go underfunded because we have no funds in the coffers...apparently. Also very disrespectful to so many of our older people who have helped build NZ and fought for it. The pro flag change brigade all too often didn't respect anything but their own perspective. Even now after the people of NZ have voted against change we still have that same disrespect on show. Apparently all the people who voted to retain the status quo are ignorant cavemen who have never been out of NZ and only want to confuse their own children and grandchildren about identity. What complete bollocks.

If a flag represents a country's identity then the status quo with so much history associated with it did just that. We can look at it with pride rather than something created five minutes ago that can be changed again in another 20 years when our temperature increases due to global warming and banana's become our biggest export handled of course by an army of workers who trace their bloodline back through Qin Shi Huang of the Qin dynasty. Perhaps a bunch of banana's in the middle of the flag covered by a large golden star surrounded by a semi circle of four smaller golden stars.

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of why people voted the way they did.

How many people out there are heartily sick of the fact NZ and it's face etc has forever changed in the last decade at a break neck speed and they want to put the breaks on the dramatic change?

How many people resented the way our Government and it's heavily bias supporters have tried to brainwash Kiwi's during this entire debacle using whatever means they felt justified in using?

How many people resented the sums of money being spent on the flag change when our Hospitals,Schools and Police etc have been forced into selling cakes and mad butcher sausage BBQ's just to stay afloat?

How many people felt the change was more about one man's ego than anything else?

How many voted for the new flag because they would support anything their god John Key told or sold them?

I'm fairly confident NZ will change it's flag at some point in the future but only when the time and justification are right. 

 

 

[Ohokaman 5,841]

12 hours ago, The Crucible said:

56.6% vs 43.2% is an absolute hiding.  Thats 285,000 more people voting for the current flag than voted for the new flag.

The 56.6% is not due to apathy - those people all made the effort to vote.  Apathy is the 33% of eligible voters who didn't bother to vote.  

Only 29% of eligible voters voted for the new flag.

What a waste of money!  #bigegotrip

Nearly a million voted for change. The polls had the old flag 3-1 favourite, it was nothing like that.

An opportunity lost here methinks. While the option wasn't my choice ( the red, white and blue much better ) and the way this was pushed through not ideal, the question has been raised and it has got people thinking.

We need our own identity, and I'm sure it will happen, probably sooner rather than later.

Maybe the status quo mob are hoping the Aussies turn Republic......

 

[biff 2,158]

Right now, I'm a proud Kiwi. My wife who is Australian chose to move to NZ bringing me home after 43 years. My wife fell out of love with Australia which has lost it's identity and is not the country I moved to all those years ago. I have an uncle buried in the Commonwealth war graves in Ravenna Italy, poor man lost his life liberating Italy during the last years of WW2. He died under our flag, it's my ambition to take some sand from the beaches of Wanganui to his resting place, now I can also take 'His' flag also. Whilst I respect a majority decision, and if that had of been the case and our flag had changed I would have adjusted accordingly, I can now rest easy knowing that for the foreseeable future we will march under our wonderful flag and go about business as usual. Once the Queen 'moves on to another gig' as Mrs Biff says, no doubt the cry for a Republic will surface, we'll face that when it arises, until then, God Save Our Queen, and God Defend New Zealand.

[barryb 2,064]

Mr AG

$26m for a flag debate I couldn't care less on that spend, thats a nonsence arguement with no relevance.

There is more than enough money to go around in this country if everyone paid there fair share in Taxation, The amount of people who pay little or no tax in NZ is staggering, these are the people you should be targeting, not a $26m flag debate that in the grand scheme of things is miniscule.

Perhaps you should have a look at the political turmoil in Australia before firing blanks at the most popular prime minister this country has ever seen. He is sleep walking to victory again and seriously who can blame them when you look at the alternative.

[barryb 2,064]

Have a look at the electorate vote.

Maori very anti change & surprise surprise strong labour seats no change vote is large.

http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/2016_flag_referendum2/result-by-electorate.html

 

This was more about a safe protest vote against Key & National with no real consequence, unlike election day when we would be facing a trade unionist, green nutters, & Winston first.

 

 

[Alphonse-Gabriel 101]

8 hours ago, Trump said:

9 minutes ago, barryb said:

Mr AG

$26m for a flag debate I couldn't care less on that spend, thats a nonsence arguement with no relevance.

There is more than enough money to go around in this country if everyone paid there fair share in Taxation, The amount of people who pay little or no tax in NZ is staggering, these are the people you should be targeting, not a $26m flag debate that in the grand scheme of things is miniscule.

Perhaps you should have a look at the political turmoil in Australia before firing blanks at the most popular prime minister this country has ever seen. He is sleep walking to victory again and seriously who can blame them when you look at the alternative.

 

Anyone who believes the flag debate etc only cost 26 million dollars is delusional. Try advertising on TV and see how much that alone costs you. I believe rightly or wrongly that the true cost of the flag debacle was in excess of 50 million dollars. I along with many others feel there are many far more deserving causes in urgent need of funding that should have been addressed before the hugely expensive flag change process was considered. Ever had your house burgled and waited four days for Police attendance? Ever witnessed a patient in any of our hospitals receive very poor care due to medical professionals being run off their feet with unreasonable workloads? How many extra nurses and Police Officers etc would the flag money have paid for? 

If I'm firing blanks at our Prime Minister,what are you doing? Feeling resentful that your choice came second in a two horse race? 

There were other less expensive and more respectful ways of holding a debate on changing the flag. A ballot box at the next election asking the right questions would have been a great place to start. Why did that not occur? Because our most popular Prime Minister ever wanted to rush it through in his own time frame as his magnificent legacy. That is just wrong.

I agree on taxes. Just for the record. Who are John Key's biggest supporters? Big business? Who manages to avoid paying their share of tax year in year out? Big business?

I also agree with you on JK sleep walking to victory again but is that due to him being the bees knees or the opposition being a bunch of hopeless has been muesli munching gay rights supporters that nobody trusts,respects or wants? Even company man Phil Goff is deserting that ship. Is Andrew Little as preferred Prime Minister still polling just over the margin of error?

[Ohokaman 5,841]

32 minutes ago, barryb said:

Have a look at the electorate vote.

Maori very anti change & surprise surprise strong labour seats no change vote is large.

http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/2016_flag_referendum2/result-by-electorate.html

 

This was more about a safe protest vote against Key & National with no real consequence, unlike election day when we would be facing a trade unionist, green nutters, & Winston first.

 

 

Could be that the Maori would prefer another flag to be adopted eh Barry..?

And Labour are yesterday's men.....who cares....??

[barryb 2,064]

AG

The biggest tax avoiders are small trades people, they use the guise of its discounted for cash (you and I know they are not paying a dime in tax on that money).

Billions of $ due  NZ inc, is being ripped off the system by these people, & are often the very same people with there hands out for these essential services you are talking about.

 

John Keys biggest supporters are Mum & Dad NZer mate, thats why he is the most popular ever.

[rdytdy 5,343]

Flag referendum: John Key defends $26m flag vote as critics accuse him of dividing country

By Isaac Davison, Nicholas Jones, Catherine Gaffaney

Prime Minister John Key says he is disappointed New Zealanders have voted to keep the current flag but has promised his Government will not revisit the issue.

Speaking after the preliminary results of the referendum were announced last night, Mr Key launched a staunch defence of the $26 million project, as opposition leaders accused him of "tainting" the vote and "dividing the country".

The vote was 56.6 per cent to 43.2 per cent for the current national flag, with 2,124,507 people casting votes - a turnout of 67.3 per cent.

Mr Key, who had campaigned for the Kyle Lockwood-designed silver fern flag, said that flag had been lengthy and considered. Asked whether the referendum process had been worth $26 million given it led to no change, he said it had sparked an "enormous", healthy debate across the country. "You can't shy away from a debate or a discussion about nationhood," he said.

Just because the referendum did not produce the outcome he wanted "doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile process", he said.

"We ... as a country had a nationwide discussion about our flag, about nationhood, about what we stand for. And I think that's been an important discussion we not only should have had, but must always have.

"I don't think we should shy away from ... contentious issues just because they are by nature contentious."

Mr Key said he would now be supporting the current flag. "What this process has shown over the last three or four months is that we as a country can get out and fly our flag. We can use it, and we can show the world how proud we are of New Zealand.

Barely an hour after the referendum result was announced, 61 Lockwood flags were up for sale on TradeMe. However, many appear to be long-running auctions by official flag sellers.

When the final result is confirmed on Wednesday, it will bring to a close a two-year process which culminated in the first-ever public vote by a country on its national flag.

Mr Key launched the flag referendum in a speech at Victoria University in March 2014.

Polls at the time showed New Zealanders supported a change to the century-old national flag. New Zealand First aside, Parliament was also overwhelmingly in favour of change.

The main opposition throughout the process has come from military veterans. As World War I commemorations took place last year, the Returned and Services Association (RSA) urged the public not to dump the flag that young soldiers fought under.

n early 2015, a panel of prominent New Zealanders was appointed to oversee the process. Some questioned the decision to include no designers on the 12-person panel, which was made up of ex-sportspeople, academics, advertising gurus and businesspeople.

More than 10,000 flag designs were submitted by the public, which the panel cut down to 40 alternative flags. The shortlist was dominated by silver ferns and koru, though many retained the Southern Cross.

At that stage, opposition to a change intensified. Critics questioned the $26 million cost of the referendum and the inadequate process. Some sections of the public lamented the absence of a forward-thinking design in the final contenders.

The longlist was trimmed to four flags, of which three featured silver ferns and one a koru. After a public campaign, a fifth contender, Red Peak, was added to the ballot.

In the first referendum in November and December, a black, white and blue silver fern flag was chosen as New Zealand's alternative national flag.

Turnout in the referendum was relatively low, at 48.78 per cent. About one in 10 votes was discarded, likely as a result of protest votes.

The silver fern flag, designed by Melbourne-based New Zealander Kyle Lockwood, was then flown in more than 250 sites across the country to help voters make up their minds.
As the second vote neared, the issue heated up.

 

Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said the flag result was a major failure for the Prime Minister. "John Key's overt campaigning for his favourite flag tainted the referendum from the outset and cost all New Zealanders the opportunity to get a new flag.

"Lots of New Zealanders support a change of flag but voted for the current one because the Prime Minister's interference ensured they weren't given a proper choice. John Key alienated people by politicising the process and attacking those who didn't like his choice of flag."

Labour leader Andrew Little said the flag project had "divided the country" and "become a personal crusade".

"At every stage of the process John Key screwed the scrum in favour of his flag. He made his desire for a fern flag known from the outset. Panel members were admittedly influenced by this and three of the four flag options featured ferns.

"When New Zealanders said they wanted a straight yes/no vote in the first referendum, he failed to listen. He failed to treat the public with respect and put his personal agenda first. Time and again we heard voters say there were higher priorities for the $26 million the referendum cost taxpayers."

New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, who has been a staunch supporter of the current flag, said the country had now spoken, and people should unite behind the existing flag.

One of the most vocal opponents of a flag change, the Returned and Services Association, says it was delighted but not surprised at the referendum result.

RSA national president BJ Clark said this evening that the decision to keep the existing national flag was "an inspiring, strong show of democracy in action".

"New Zealand service personnel sign up for a number of reasons, but one of the foremost of these is to safeguard the continuing of our way of life," Mr Clark said.

The flag's creator, Melbourne-based New Zealander Kyle Lockwood, does not want to comment until the final result is released.

He said earlier this week that he would remain optimistic of victory right until the last minute. If his flag lost, he said it could be turned into a beach towel.

Barely an hour after the referendum result was announced, 61 Lockwood flags were up for sale on TradeMe. However, many appear to be long-running auctions by official flag sellers.

When the final result is confirmed on Wednesday, it will bring to a close a two-year process which culminated in the first-ever public vote by a country on its national flag.

Mr Key launched the flag referendum in a speech at Victoria University in March 2014.

Polls at the time showed New Zealanders supported a change to the century-old national flag. New Zealand First aside, Parliament was also overwhelmingly in favour of change.

The main opposition throughout the process has come from military veterans. As World War I commemorations took place last year, the Returned and Services Association (RSA) urged the public not to dump the flag that young soldiers fought under.

In early 2015, a panel of prominent New Zealanders was appointed to oversee the process. Some questioned the decision to include no designers on the 12-person panel, which was made up of ex-sportspeople, academics, advertising gurus and businesspeople.

More than 10,000 flag designs were submitted by the public, which the panel cut down to 40 alternative flags. The shortlist was dominated by silver ferns and koru, though many retained the Southern Cross.

At that stage, opposition to a change intensified. Critics questioned the $26 million cost of the referendum and the inadequate process. Some sections of the public lamented the absence of a forward-thinking design in the final contenders.

The longlist was trimmed to four flags, of which three featured silver ferns and one a koru. After a public campaign, a fifth contender, Red Peak, was added to the ballot.

In the first referendum in November and December, a black, white and blue silver fern flag was chosen as New Zealand's alternative national flag.

Turnout in the referendum was relatively low, at 48.78 per cent. About one in 10 votes was discarded, likely as a result of protest votes.

The silver fern flag, designed by Melbourne-based New Zealander Kyle Lockwood, was then flown in more than 250 sites across the country to help voters make up their minds.
As the second vote neared, the issue heated up.

The Change the Flag campaign ran advertisements featuring high-profile Kiwis, who urged voters to pick the silver fern design. Police investigated claims of vote-tampering.

The National Party was forced to deny its caucus was holding secret meetings to bolster support for a flag change. Mr Peters alleged that voting papers had been wrongly translated.

Through it all, Mr Key remained optimistic of a change, despite polls showing overwhelming support for the status quo. In the lead-up to the second referendum, he said that the issue was a "once in a lifetime" opportunity.

 

 

 

[biff 2,158]

2 hours ago, barryb said:

AG

The biggest tax avoiders are small trades people, they use the guise of its discounted for cash (you and I know they are not paying a dime in tax on that money).

Billions of $ due  NZ inc, is being ripped off the system by these people, & are often the very same people with there hands out for these essential services you are talking about.

 

John Keys biggest supporters are Mum & Dad NZer mate, thats why he is the most popular ever.

Baz, we used to support him, from Australia, we moved here and guess what, he's proved to be a FWIT, he might die with more money in the bank than I, but he's a Fwit, albeit a rich one. We have our own business, we support business, he on the other hand let's big business get away with far too much in this country. The bloke is teflon coated, nothing sticks.

[Ohokaman 5,841]

And the alternative is.....Andrew Little, the stupid bitch from the Greens and Winston Peters.....???

They don't get everything right Biff, who does, but the other mob doesn't bear thinking about.

[Ohokaman 5,841]

And it wouldn't have happened otherwise Hesi..? A bit naive....

The World Economy and Immigration might have had something to do with it....supply and demand anyone....??

[Alphonse-Gabriel 101]

15 hours ago, Trump said:

7 hours ago, barryb said:

AG

The biggest tax avoiders are small trades people, they use the guise of its discounted for cash (you and I know they are not paying a dime in tax on that money).

Billions of $ due  NZ inc, is being ripped off the system by these people, & are often the very same people with there hands out for these essential services you are talking about.

 

John Keys biggest supporters are Mum & Dad NZer mate, thats why he is the most popular ever.

 

I don't agree with your perspective Barry but I at least allow for the possibility that in part, you may be correct.

We all have strong personal anecdotal evidence of why something is working or not working. What I've witnessed tells me very strongly that this Government spends a lot of time crunching numbers but not much time on the people they are crunching them for.

Yes John Key is a personable sort of guy which he has used very well most of the time in his role.

Most popular Prime Minister ever? What does that even mean? Politicians as a breed of people are among the least respected people in society, right up there with door to door vacuum cleaner sales people. So he's the equivalent in some eyes as our most popular ever door to door vacuum cleaner salesman.

It's not much of a competition is it Barry?

Helen Clark

Jenny Shipley

Jim Bolger

Mike Moore

Geoffrey Palmer

Robert Muldoon

etc. What a list. I put it to you that swine flu was more popular than most on that list so I wouldn't be rushing to dine out on being at the top of it.

I must admit I've become cynical about our political process. I believe it's generally more a case of voting out a despised Government rather than embracing the new Government. By the time the last Labour Government were shown the door in 2008, NZ didn't want anything to do with that party for many years. Many hard core Labour voters vowed never to return to them. They felt Labour had betrayed them and traditional Labour values. Even if they were brilliant in opposition and National woeful,Labour were never going to win back power for at least a decade. Having said that,look at the last eight years. Labour have been the worst opposition in living memory. Totally ineffective. The look like a handful of gay rights protesters in drag meekly protesting at a Hells Angel's rally.

Look at their leaders. Phil Goff. The male version of Helen Clark who voters wanted nothing to do with. David Cunliffe. The most ineffective Labour leader in the history of the party. Just hopeless. Now they have Andrew Little. Mr margin of error. About as aspiring as a cold cup of coffee on a bad hair day. Who is going to replace John Key's Government? If Labour is the main threat to John Key then he can sleep soundly for another few years at least.

 

[Ohokaman 5,841]

Whether he will want to will be the question AG......I think he might have had enough at the end of this term.

The challenge for National then will be to find someone to adequately replace him...might not be an easy task.

[Sairy 37]

21 hours ago, Trump said:

What a joke. Take a bow NZ'ers and be prepared to be rogered big time. You've stuck to a flag so close to Prince Charles, Camilla, Australia, that you should be ashamed. The alternative was a cracker. Unfortunately, I suspect many of the status quo voters have probably never ventured offshore or, don't want to forge their own identity for their children and grandchildren going forward. Rejoice ye loyalists and long live under the undies of the Empire. 

 

I can tell you I voted for the old flag not because Im against change, but because the new flag design was so damn awful, an eyesore that only got in because John Key liked it

[crustyngrizzly 1,701]

Simple fact,,,Over 3million registered voters in NZ.

Of them less than 30% voted for change.

[Yorkielad 108]

On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 10:34 AM, barryb said:

The biggest tax avoiders are small trades people, they use the guise of its discounted for cash (you and I know they are not paying a dime in tax on that money).

Billions of $ due  NZ inc, is being ripped off the system by these people, & are often the very same people with there hands out for these essential services you are talking about.

"These people"  ..................  a term usually used before a torrent abuse of red neck wonderings.

The BIGGEST tax avoiders, are the some of the richest people in NZ.

So a tradie trims $500,  wtf  or a bene gets an extra $50 undeserved, they got nothing on upstairs and the rorts done there.  

And you do know that the VAST majority of benefit fraud is committed by STAFF members, the ones best equipped to bleed the system.   

[eljay 1,720]

Think it's time now to flag the whole debate!

[jack 431]

Agree!!

[rdytdy 5,343]

14 hours ago, jack said:

Agree!!

Classic!!