what a post 811 Report post Posted July 9, 2015 Have just been reading mr guerins views on the all stars teams success. In my opinion its well written and argues his views well. However what it fails to answer is why this stable is so dominant at the end of their races. Yes, accepted, they are the best at everything ,no argument,but why is it that they can always pull away in the last 200m of races run in record time. That's something mr Guerin has never addressed. No one ever does. I personally could not care less who wins, So what do I think is the reason.? To me its quite simple. This stable uses vets and others with expertise in the supply of additives that stop their horses getting tired. Simple. If your to be want to be the best in this sport you have to be ahead of the game in this area. What else would we expect from the best. Is that fair?. Well we all have our own opinion. Back in the 1990"s I worked for 6 weeks for a trainer of a soon to be champion. What did I learn. While I was there he had a horse come into his stable 4 days before it raced so as to get enough starters to win a sulky for best udr. According to the normal trainer this horse with 3 unplaced starts could run a place as long as they didn't go any faster than 3.23 as he struggled if they did. I told my co worker that and he told me ignore that because the vet with the best milkshake around was coming out the day before the race and the horse would grow a leg. This horse came out and won by 10 lengths untouched in a class record of 3.18. All my co worker said that night was told you. The horse went straight back to his trainer and lost the extra leg and won 1 more race in its career. GONSTA 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollyb 22 Report post Posted July 9, 2015 . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cupday 41 Report post Posted July 9, 2015 Gueran has a privileged position to protect at all stars. Mark tells him exactly what his runners are up to. Gueran benefits from that with his informed media role and as a very keen punter. Knowing what a good judge like mark is expecting is gold to a good punter. M.G always shows a positive bias toward the all stars so much so you could be forgiven in thinking he's their P.R man. He wont touch anything even a little bit negative there. be like doing one in your own nest. Despite that I think the all stars great success is about their skills,big spending owners and hard work. they are almost impossible to beat in the big races. they usually have the best horses and have multiple runners. orange agent showed they can be beaten but its rare. i dont think any one stable dominating the races that really matter is good for harness but im sure everything they do is sweet and legal Gaf1973 and Ashoka 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnevans 71 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 All I can think of is that they could be treated with something from their early days that holds them in good stead later on. EPO isn't illegal is it? Can't be if they don't test for it. EPO is what Lance Armstrong used and the people who stood against him for years said that EPO allowed Lance's team to train harder before the Tour de France. They didn't necessarily use it during the event itself. Plus Nicky Chilcott used as her defence that she used illegal drugs on her horses but not race day so it obviously goes on. Just a guess mind you. Horses used to have courses of steroids from an early age didn't they. Not allowed now but probably still goes on. Rules are made to be broken aren't they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee270744 684 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 I was wondering why a Sumo wrestler would find it difficult to beat Usain Bolt, and please don't tell me it is fitness or condition.I assume the wrestlers drink a lot of milkshakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejanitor 1,226 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 Back in the 1990"s I worked for 6 weeks for a trainer of a soon to be champion. What did I learn. While I was there he had a horse come into his stable 4 days before it raced so as to get enough starters to win a sulky for best udr. According to the normal trainer this horse with 3 unplaced starts could run a place as long as they didn't go any faster than 3.23 as he struggled if they did. I told my co worker that and he told me ignore that because the vet with the best milkshake around was coming out the day before the race and the horse would grow a leg. This horse came out and won by 10 lengths untouched in a class record of 3.18. All my co worker said that night was told you. The horse went straight back to his trainer and lost the extra leg and won 1 more race in its career. What was the name of the trainer? What was the name of horse that the vet treated and the soon to be champion? I'm not sure a "milkshake" would bring about the 10 length improvement you describe. Many trainers used the masking agent arsenic 'tonic' years ago, and some up until recently. This 'tonic' must have had a remarkable affect on a horse because since it has been banned some stables that previously won plenty of races, including Group Ones, now win hardly any and struggle to win a maiden race. Cobalt seems to be the latest drug of choice among the galloping fraternity, so maybe that will start showing up in harness too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toblerone 242 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 Going on the clues given, I would say the horse was Likely Lad and the year was 1991. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejanitor 1,226 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 Going on the clues given, I would say the horse was Likely Lad and the year was 1991. I remember the horse as I had a horse then that raced against it at least once perhaps more. I cannot remember Likely Lad's trainer W. A. Whyte or the regular driver K. J. McClintock at all. what a post claimed that the horse won only once more in its career after the win with the best UDR chasing trainer. But according to the records the horse won three more races after the incident Whatapost alludes to. Likely Lad had 24 starts in NZ resulting in four wins, two seconds and a third so perhaps the horse had more ability than he credits it with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 10, 2015 Toblerone. You know you horses as well as your chocolate. Well done. The janitor. Ive just looked up its record and your quite right ,it did win 4 races. I see it only went 3.20 and won by 12 1/2 !enghts on the night in question. Im now wondering if that fish I caught in the avon river as a kid was as big as I thought . Only learnt a couple of things in the short time i was there. That he was a great feeder but if you keep feeding them on days off they will tie up. That when the vet turns up expect the horse to improve dramatically. And never get out of the cart next to a big bush and whip the horse on the right side while standing on the left side of it. At the time I was there some of his best horses were scouring badly and if my memory is correct never raced any good if at all in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 11, 2015 Just to clarify ,it was not me standing next to the bush. But back to the topic at hand. Is it superior training ,superior horses and breeding or superior vet or whoever attention. In my opinion you need all 3 to be the best. People like Mick Guerin always give no credence to the latter of the 3 reasons and In my opinion he cant be taken seriously until he admits the obvious . Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted July 11, 2015 Tall Poppy Syndrome at its finest. I have never had a horse with Mark Purdon (probably should have) and had my horses beaten for years by them. Doesn't mean I think he is a cheat. All the best to the All Stars. Stop whinging. Monte 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 11, 2015 Where did you get a name like that? So ive got tall poppy syndrome. Cant see where I have said they are cheats but who cares whatever conclusions you infer. I thought it was realists syndrome. The only difference between me and most is I express my opinion publicly. Ive used the all stars team as an example because that's who the article was written about. Do you ignore history. Where have you been anyway or are you saying whats happening regarding cobalt is all a figment of the imagination? I refer you to a recent quote from jeff gural which I posted on here. It was when asked what he thought about those who said performance enhancers were not common. His answer was" I think its a joke that people believe that". Quite happy to give you the full quote if you like. That jeff gural,he must be the biggest tall poppy in the world. Like he must be so jealous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted July 11, 2015 What does Jeff Gural have to do with Mark Purdon? And what does cobalt have to do with him? Basil 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka 1,179 Report post Posted July 11, 2015 Sickopunter... The lack of transparency in the management of the racing industry leads to rumour and innuendo which manifestly damages the financial viability of the industry in the long run. Please consider the following in the context of an investor and supporter of an industry, not as a lover of an industry. Do you know what the Blue Magic affair was all about? I know that two men supposedly lost their lives over this matter but I don't know why. I know that a police enquiry was thwarted by the actions of individuals involved in the thoroughbred industry but, it appears that nothing was done about this. I know that this matter rorted owners, trainers, breeders and punters but I don't know how. I love the racing industry and remain loyal but, in my opinion, no totally sane person would, in the given circumstances. Please consider the above and then tell me about any other legitimate industry that would be able to continue in this manner. There are other industries who do, but they are all overtly criminal enterprises and are openly acknowledged as such. There is much to be done if the racing industry is going to survive as higher levels of education become the norm. Taking pot shots at those who raise that which we don't really want to think about is not one of them. All the best. Ashoka hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 12, 2015 Ashoka Ive always admired the respectful, non combative nature of your replies. sickopunter Where did I make any connection between jeff gural and mark purdon? Where I did make a connection was on the subject we are discussing. The views of the man who runs the biggest harness operation in north Americas should be respected. As for what does cobalt have to do with mark purdon.Well, again I made no connection with him. The results of cobalt levels published in nsw indicate NO use of cobalt by our leading stable in Australia. Since you appear not to have got my message I will join the dots for you. The cobalt case in Australia involving many of the leading stables shows the reliance those leading stables have on using performance enhancers. It illustrates the common use of vets and other peddlers to facilitate the improved performance of their horses. It illustrates that officials will use their influence to cover up. It illustrates that the health of the horse is compromised . Remember cobalt is not the only drug in the world. Still you keep believing nz is as pure as the driven snow if you wish. Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte 6 Report post Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) I personally could not care less who wins, So what do I think is the reason.? To me its quite simple. This stable uses vets and others with expertise in the supply of additives that stop their horses getting tired. Simple. If your to be want to be the best in this sport you have to be ahead of the game in this area. What else would we expect from the best. Is that fair?. Well we all have our own opinion. Every trainer has the same rights to use vets and other experts in the supply of legal additives. what a post, I'm making an assumption that your comments refer to the Purdon stable using legal vet practises and supply of legal additives within the rules of harness racing that keeps them ahead of the game? Otherwise sickopunter might be right? Edited July 12, 2015 by Monte Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnevans 71 Report post Posted July 12, 2015 Wait a minute Sicko. How can anyone say that someone isn't a cheat when they confessed to cheating and paid a penalty for it? That's like saying a convicted murderer isn't a murderer. Okay Okay the blue magic thing never happened. Its a complete figment of my imagination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 12, 2015 monte, That's basically what I said at the start. I just went one step further as the thread developed and inferred that what is deemed as legal today may be found to be performance enhancing in the future. Cobalt being the example used as it is the most topical. I pointed out what was going on in Australia gave us an insight into how such practices can ultimately play out . I started this topic as mick Guerin never refers to this side of any leading stables operation. That tells a story in itself. The main reason I and some others keep banging on about this subject is because of the negative impact on horses long term health and most don't even care.. When mick Guerin writes an article that addresses this topic then I'll stop. When the riu actually give the impression it is a good thing to catch big players who use performance enhancers then ill stop. Wont happen. Instead those people will continue to justify their views by calling people like me jealous and use terms like tall poppy. hedley and Ashoka 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte 6 Report post Posted July 12, 2015 I started this topic as mick Guerin never refers to this side of any leading stables operation. That tells a story in itself. The main reason I and some others keep banging on about this subject is because of the negative impact on horses long term health and most don't even care.. When mick Guerin writes an article that addresses this topic then I'll stop. When the riu actually give the impression it is a good thing to catch big players who use performance enhancers then ill stop. Wont happen. Instead those people will continue to justify their views by calling people like me jealous and use terms like tall poppy. I respect your point of view and opinions but I'm unclear with what you are now saying... You agreed that you were meaning the Purdon Stable comply's to the rules by using legal veterinary services and additives but then in your last post you said "When the riu actually give the impression it is a good thing to catch big players who use performance enhancers then ill stop" are you implying that there are leading stables using illegal performance enhancers? Otherwise why would the RIU have to catch the big players if they are complying to the rules of harness racing? Are your opinions based on current facts and evidence or suppositions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 13, 2015 Fair comment. My opinion regarding the riu not giving the impression they want to catch the big players is formed by listening to mr godbers many comments on radio and media. For example when referring to the osullivan\scott positives he made comments like "I think the racing industry has dodged a bullet" when referring to the reduced coverage in national media due to other news on the day. The inference he gave ,and in my opinion always does,was that the less the public know the better. That's just one example. Whenever I hear him talk that's the impression I get. Is he employed to keep the game clean or as a p/r man for that side of the racing industry? Why does the riu always feel obligated to pre warn trainers and vets when some new drug is found to be in use through their intelligence. Cobalt being the latest example. My opinions are based on fact and its quite simple why I say that. Use cobalt as an example,.read the timeline of riu press releases on this. Why did they ban it?. Because they had intelligence that it was being used. So here we have a classic case of trainers using a product as a performance enhancer knowing there will be no consequences until it is banned,which they know the riu will pre warn them when they do. Simple. This bit is supposition.I have watched quite a few races at my age and it seems to me horses today can run records,look like they could go another round at the end of their races ,then come back in and don't even look tired.I find that disconcerting. GONSTA 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee270744 684 Report post Posted July 13, 2015 What I find disconcerting is The Guinness Book Of Records published books after 1955. How is it that records keep getting broken? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanthegreat 1,123 Report post Posted July 13, 2015 Start with a good vet............. I can think of two that owned horses and from a total of 5 horses won 117 races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte 6 Report post Posted July 13, 2015 Fair comment. My opinion regarding the riu not giving the impression they want to catch the big players is formed by listening to mr godbers many comments on radio and media. For example when referring to the osullivan\scott positives he made comments like "I think the racing industry has dodged a bullet" when referring to the reduced coverage in national media due to other news on the day. The inference he gave ,and in my opinion always does,was that the less the public know the better. That's just one example. Whenever I hear him talk that's the impression I get. Is he employed to keep the game clean or as a p/r man for that side of the racing industry? Why does the riu always feel obligated to pre warn trainers and vets when some new drug is found to be in use through their intelligence. Cobalt being the latest example. My opinions are based on fact and its quite simple why I say that. Use cobalt as an example,.read the timeline of riu press releases on this. Why did they ban it?. Because they had intelligence that it was being used. So here we have a classic case of trainers using a product as a performance enhancer knowing there will be no consequences until it is banned,which they know the riu will pre warn them when they do. Simple. This bit is supposition.I have watched quite a few races at my age and it seems to me horses today can run records,look like they could go another round at the end of their races ,then come back in and don't even look tired.I find that disconcerting. That's good, I wanted to make sure you didn't have any inside info or breaking news. It's great that you can voice your concerns and stand up for what you believe in. I do disagree regarding the RIU informing trainers about new banned products. I feel they are obligated to advise trainers and industry participants of any changes to the rules of racing including banned substances. It is no different than the Police or the Government informing the public when drink driving levels decrease/increase or if law has been changed. I understand and respect the concerns you have raised. I do agree that effective communication would be good start. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted July 14, 2015 How about this. Half of the industry has at some point worked for Mark, Barry or Roy. And many of them are now some of the main "competition" (I use that term loosely) to them. If Purdon drug use or cheating was going on and has been over a prolonged period of time in the way a few of you have said or inferred wouldn't a lot of these former employees know about it and or be speaking out? How many of them have? Don't you think that having the best experience, people, the best track, the best facilities and best bred horses training against each other day in and day out could give them a big edge? And don't you think that for Purdon competition to not be looking at the obvious things that they can learn from them is counter productive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnevans 71 Report post Posted July 14, 2015 Who said it used to be against the rules to give a horse say steroids from a young age? There was no such rule. And as said earlier Nicky Chilcott used in her defence in court that she used drugs on her horses out of competition but not close to or on race day. In fact Edward Rennell was a witness on her behalf and he obviously knew she did this or else he wouldn't have gone to court on her behalf. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
