RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
thrillsnspills

59 less races

Recommended Posts

u can see why  less  64 acceptors at Auckland Friday night-  I think it is going to continue- a struggle for fields- no easy answer- no will to change the handicapping system means a drop off in horse numbers- general comment I get around the traps  is " what's the point'

 

in the north must be very  hard for trainers and drivers to make ends meet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In business today you have to advertise outside your own Industry to get new business you cant do it by advertising in your own industry, thus whats Harness has been doing for years and now we have a declining industry,( it started 10 years ago ). Ask anybody in the Auckland area under the age of 30/35  what happens at Alexandra Park and they couldn't tell you, NO signage to get you there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thrillsnspills...

 

What do we expect from an ATC Committee (Board?) that is clearly more focused on commercial development than the furtherment of the harness racing sport and industry?

I believe that anyone with just a few working brain cells can predict what the future holds for Alexandra Park.

I can also see how this future can be seen as inevitable, regardless of anyone's views about harness racing.

 

I say...sell Alexandra Park now while the Auckland property market is red-hot.

Use the money to build a harness racing establishment that can fully serve the needs of harness racing in the upper part of the North Island, this establishment to be run for everybody. The days of Clubs, and the inherent self-interest are long gone and the current set-up is on the point of killing off harness racing altogether.

Bite the bullet now...or there soon won't be any bullet left to bite.

 

All the best.

Ashoka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ashoka why do you think ATC is focused on commercial development??? Just read Comments on Harnesslink as to why Harness racing is on a downward spiral . HRNZ is been run by a bunch of club selected amateurs who seem to have no idea of the realities of running a business and the Racing Board is top heavy with staff on huge salaries we are paying for!! ATC has a commercial plan that if successful will insure Harness Racing survives in Auckland regardless of outside influences.

At least we arnt sitting on our backsides hoping for a miracle like HRNZ appear to be!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nslram...

 

You and your colleagues are in the process of establishing a commercial enterprise,

The term "commercial enterprise" is a synonym for "empire building", in my opinion.

I predict that this "commercial enterprise" will end up providing what will be, in effect, sinecures for "chosen" individuals associated with this venture.

I further predict that the attitude shown by the ATC to the Kumeu Club will set the agenda for the ATC's future relationship with other harness racing organisations.

I also predict that the Trotting Hall of Fame will be subsumed by the ATC, one way or another, and relegated to the role of a minor inconvenience.

I hope that I'm wrong on all counts.

 

All the best.

Ashoka

 

PS Alexandra Park is, now, in the wrong place for harness racing to develop and prosper. It is, however, in exactly the right place for urban development.

It is only a "Club", with it's associated vested interests, that would fail to recognise the blatantly obvious and miss realising the potential offered by sale and reinvestment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry but some of the posters in this thread are talking absolute nonsense  ........Clubs cannot rely on racing industry revenue to survive financially in today's competitive gambling environment. From the outside it appears that the ATC have done an excellent job in recent years with their non commercial enterprises, their new venture goes to another level and I personally wish them all the best.  They already led the way in terms of racing stakes, so this suggests that they have credibility and should accordingly be given some respect that they know what what they are doing

 

Cannot see how you can accuse them of "empire building"....... if they are then you would need to accuse The Met of doing the same thing with all their successful commercial development that has turned that club around.

 

Ashoka, you seem to be very critical of all people in positions of power in harness racing without offering any tangible solutions or alternatives. A quick google search suggests you were once involved in Central Districts  racing, would your own past involvement survive your own high critical standards??

 

Finally Nslram, your criticism of HRNZ is inappropriate in this forum - especially if your are representing the views of the ATC board( in my opinion) Irrespective of differences between HRNZ, ATC and The MET you should be publicly offering a united front-Just look at the galloping code which appears to be imploding  in front of everyone's eyes if you need further proof of why I make this statement.  Any issues/ problems should be discussed and sorted at board level- cheap shots fired over the internet are nothing but counter productive.

 

Regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ATC need to be applauded for the revenue streams they are creating dating back to the TAB, bar/café and Sport Auckland Complex. More recently the Blues development and Apartment complex at the top of the straight.

 

One question I would like John Green to clear up for us - why the hostility towards Kumeu TC? They are taking their meetings to Cambridge next season. Is it fair to say that have been banned from racing at Alexandra Park OR are facing crippling levies to do so? Is it because they refused to sign their assets over to the ATC ala Franklin and were then cold-shouldered?

 

The trainers in that area are now facing a 3 hour drive to support their local club.

I think it would clear up a lot of the innuendo if we got a straight answer.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matt any opinions I give on this forum are mine not the ATC boards and in my opinion HRNZ is holding the industry back and this is a criticism of the archaic system used to appoint people to a multi million dollar business not the board as individuals. No other commercial business anywhere uses a voting system like harness racing does to select a board and because of this we get a board lacking in commercial skills and knowledge and more interested in appeasing the clubs that vote them in. In other words these people are voted in like politicians they are not appointed for their business expertise .

In my view while this system is used Harness Racing will continue to go backwards and I'm not sure why you think I shouldn't be able to express my opinion here like everyone else does

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Toblerone my understanding is that Kumeu are racing at Auckland in July. I don't know of any animosity with Kumeu . My understanding is that the past Kumeu Committee wanted ATC to supply race night facilities for free as had always been the case but ATC decided they would start to charge Kumeu to race there as Avondale does.

There are some good people on the Kumeu Board and I wish them luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fair enough Nslram, happy to take you at your word that you opinions are yours only.

 

Would be very hard to effect change if respective boards were all firing shots at each other via internet forums..........thankfully that isn't the case

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cantab matt...

 

I have been involved in the harness industry in the Central Districts at my own expense and stand by everything I did and tried to do.

I have seen first-hand how and why things are done and it has disheartened and dispirited me beyond exasperation.

The problems faced by the harness racing sport and industry have not just dropped out of the sky.

The issues have stood out like sore thumbs, as alluded to by John Curtin in his article on HarnessLink.

The problem is those in positions of influence simply looking after themselves and their patch, and the attitude of these people towards those involved in the grass roots of the sport and industry.

The same applies in the thoroughbred code.

The greyhound code is different...the people running the greyhound industry appear to be corrupt by nature and have simply found their vocation.

If you wish to hear my thoughts on the demise of Hutt Park, just give me ring and set aside a couple of hours. However, only do this if intemperate language does not offend you.

 

All the best.

Ashoka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cantab Matt. Probably less likely to see any change if everything is kept secret.

 

I originally was a little anti John Green on here but am warming to him. He makes some good points regarding where the industry is at and how it is being run the same old ways even though things have changed. Just look at old photos and videos from the past and not that far back where they got good crowds to most trot meetings. Sadly this is no longer the case. Addington is like a ghost town compared to when I would go to most meetings there in the 80s. It was part of peoples lives and culture to go to the races back in the day so clubs didn't have to do anything to get the crowds but it's not like it now and we've got mostly the same type of people at the top running things who have come through the same old system. The Auckland and Addington clubs are doing things a bit more professionally to get stakes up a bit but they still don't get the crowds do they?

 

I've been watching and posting race turnovers here lately to make the point that trotting races are doing better than their share on the tote compared with pacing races but it's not because the trotter is a better product just because of it's gait. I think it's because you get better betting fields and probably bigger fields and it's more even with the standing start handicaps. It's interesting to see if the better horse off 30m can beat the front runners with the handicapping of course making things even. All the 7 horse pacing races with one standout that has won 8 but classed as C2 and paying $1.50 are killing the game. It puts off the average punter who would never back a $1.50 shot but who also knows it's a waste of time backing another runner in the race.

 

We need to race like against like for better turnovers. This handicapping system looking after the top stables is stuffing the industry.

 

HRNZ needs to wake up to looking out for the majority, not just their mates.

 

Portfolio. Yeah let's cut back on NZ trotting races and let's replace them with more greyhounds and Aussie races. That's what the racing board wants anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems an attitude by some that those who express personal opinions which are viewed as negative should not express those opinions via sites such as this. I have read put down generalisations about internet posters by journalists in the monthly, in trainers representative newsletters and just shake my head that some can just brush off as ignorant or negative, the opinions of those with years of experience as either a punter, owner, trainer, breeder.        I can only speak for myself but these are the most important things that need to be corrected or at least seen to be trying to be corrected in racing.                               1) From a punting perspective I simply do not bother to bet on any of the major meetings or races run at the major centres for the sole reason that I believe it wrong that horses race with additives in their system detrimental to their health and which give some an advantage over others.   I am not saying they are racing with illegal substances as clearly you can operate within the rules if allowed.The head in the sand attitude of some from journalists to trainers reps to officialdom is a joke in my opinion. I realise that to put food on the table this practice is a necessity but authorities seem only interested in the soft targets.    I may not punt as much these days but some weeks still turnover a few $1000 on aussie dogs if  I have a good run. I used to do the majority of my betting on nz harness but not anymore.  2)the main reason we have not bred for the last 4 years is because of the handicapping system. As ive said before why  should young horses get preferential treatment at the expense of older horses. We said about 4 years ago we would not breed again until this changed.    3)the main reason we have given up training is a lack of  recent success and lack of racing oppurtunities. Hell last year we had a 1win horse who had paid a dividend in 50% of his previous 12 starts with his worst recent placing one of he was very unlucky not to win and we went 10 weeks trying to get a start before we said why bother and turned all ours out. Why would clubs rather run small non win fields and exclude 1 win horses from running because they had too bigger fields.Why not combine the 2.              Reality is those giving up are at the bottom end who would quite gladly keep going if they could run in a low stake race with horses of similar ability and just have a bit of fun. What happens when each layer  disappears is the next layer to it is exposed and their clock of participation begins ticking.             Harness racings greatest asset from my observation  was the willingness of those who are successful to help and encourage those at the other end . Those at the very top would and do go out of their way to help others if asked. Unless some changes are made there will be no one to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a post, so you refuse to bet on NZ Harness because you believe horses are on 'non performance enhancing additives" yet you will bet on Aussie dogs despite their insidious habits of using live kills?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cantab Matt. Probably less likely to see any change if everything is kept secret.

 

I originally was a little anti John Green on here but am warming to him. He makes some good points regarding where the industry is at and how it is being run the same old ways even though things have changed. Just look at old photos and videos from the past and not that far back where they got good crowds to most trot meetings. Sadly this is no longer the case. Addington is like a ghost town compared to when I would go to most meetings there in the 80s. It was part of peoples lives and culture to go to the races back in the day so clubs didn't have to do anything to get the crowds but it's not like it now and we've got mostly the same type of people at the top running things who have come through the same old system. The Auckland and Addington clubs are doing things a bit more professionally to get stakes up a bit but they still don't get the crowds do they?

 

I've been watching and posting race turnovers here lately to make the point that trotting races are doing better than their share on the tote compared with pacing races but it's not because the trotter is a better product just because of it's gait. I think it's because you get better betting fields and probably bigger fields and it's more even with the standing start handicaps. It's interesting to see if the better horse off 30m can beat the front runners with the handicapping of course making things even. All the 7 horse pacing races with one standout that has won 8 but classed as C2 and paying $1.50 are killing the game. It puts off the average punter who would never back a $1.50 shot but who also knows it's a waste of time backing another runner in the race.

 

We need to race like against like for better turnovers. This handicapping system looking after the top stables is stuffing the industry.

 

HRNZ needs to wake up to looking out for the majority, not just their mates.

 

Portfolio. Yeah let's cut back on NZ trotting races and let's replace them with more greyhounds and Aussie races. That's what the racing board wants anyway.

 

 

John, I didn't say I disagreed with Nslram- merely stating from my view that industry related board members lobbing hand grenades on public forums is counter productive to effective change. I am on several boards and also sporting club committee's, its not how I believe change should be made....... Nslram is correct in his view that the HRNZ board needs to be made up of commercially savy people ( with an interest in harness racing).........anyways happy to move on.

 

Re your post, comparing harness racing today to the 1980's and previous era's is hardly relevant ( in my view). Back then harness was one of the only shows in town, it was before the advent of super rugby, trackside tv, radio trackside, sky tv, casinos, pokies, lotto, off shore bookies, international sporting feeds, internationlisation of racing   etc etc etc. Clubs then could rely on turnover to survive------- commercially today they simply cannot.

As an example, the board/new CEO at Addington realised this- to my understanding the previous management had accummalated $10m of running losses over several years. The only way out of this hole was to focus on non-racing commercial enterprise to make their business viable. They have made the necessary changes and are no going great guns with racing stake money improving all the time. Betting turnover is still important but is not the only source of income for racing clubs and clubs that are solely reliant on it are going to be knee deep in you know what unless the make some effective changes sooner rather than later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if I read you correctly, you are saying the Industry cannot survive unless it "invests" in other industries.    Therefore the game on it's own is now a dinosaur!

 

since before Adam was born...... businesses have been known to diversify and not put all their eggs in one basket. Its called risk management eljay ( and I am sure you know this).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cantab  matt.I think the use of performance enhancers is common. I have not come across anyone that doesn't.  For example you can legally give your horse cobalt or arsenic at levels which fall below the legal threshold but will enhance your horses performance but do long term damage to their health. I could go on about the use of other drugs but will ask you a quite simple question.  Why is it when record times are recorded over the longer distances there is such huge gaps between where horses finish. Ive seem umpteen examples of races in all grades on the bigger days when certain stables simply have many lengths over the opposition. Tell me why that is? Are the trainers who used to be able to keep up that poor now?                 You refer to the aussie dogs. Quite simply they are a good example of what im talking about. Watch them and you will see the higher the grade the more even they are with the result heavily influenced by draws and box speed.   You refer to the live bait issue. They dealt with the offenders .   Can you answer my question and keep a straight face?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:rolleyes: I'm a smiley guy. so hard to keep a straight face..... I don't disagree with your assessment,

 

Re Aussie dogs, yes they have dealt with "the offenders" but who is to say they didn't get them all and its more of a widespread practice than people want to admit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cantab matt...

 

Clearly, I have not made my position clear.

I firmly believe in the need for all racing clubs to maximise their income through involvement in non-racing ventures.

However, such involvement must not come from debasing the prime object, which is the furtherment of harness racing both as a sport and an industry.

I see the ejection of trainers from a racing facility as both despicable and counter-productive in the long run. The opposite should be happening.

I see the "recruitment" of new members in order to push through major changes to the direction of a club as dangerous, disingenuous and downright dirty.

I see the appointment of people not well-versed in the nature and needs of the racing industry to top positions as dangerous and counter-productive in the long run.

It is only people enamoured with the racing industry who have the passion and, hopefully, the energy to ensure it's survival.

We cannot blame business people whom the racing industry brings on-board for focussing solely on the business side at the expense of the racing side, even though the racing side is the reason for the existence of the business. If we are so silly as to give solely business-focused people the final, effective say, then we deserve what we will get.

 

All the best.

Ashoka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cantab  matt.I think the use of performance enhancers is common. I have not come across anyone that doesn't.  For example you can legally give your horse cobalt or arsenic at levels which fall below the legal threshold but will enhance your horses performance but do long term damage to their health. 

 

I believe that the masking agent arsenic "tonic" is banned in NZ harness racing now, but unsure about Australia. Since the tonic was banned here some stables are not as prominent as they once were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.