Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 5, 2015 I feel sorry for Arch also, there's absolutley no way he would of done this intentionally, lets be honest it's not as though he needs the money!! I hope Arch gets the results back that prove it came from the kibble then sue's the kibble makers arse and then proceeds to sue the RIU and JCA's arse. I reckon if the kibble manufacture is to blame for the recent positive Morphine swabs, the least they should do would be to pay the fines & pay the purse money which had to be returned, because there would be no fault by any of the trainers. They bought a product made exactly for the purpose for which it was used. If it were my neck on the line, anything less would see me dragging them to court with a much larger targeted figure. They're greyhound trainers, not lab scientists. If the day comes where they have to send away a sample of each bag of kibble they've purchased to a testing lab prior to feeding it to the dogs to know that it's "safe", it'd be a very sad day. iteruka, kuriracer and Slim Shady 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Shady 479 Report post Posted March 5, 2015 why didn't he just seek an adjournment whilst waiting on the results from kibble It appears from what I've read that Arch has sent the kibble away for testing on his own accord, not the RIU hence no adjournment. The RIU wouldn't want to wait for the results anyway, they just want the kill, guilty, out the door, next please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary1 361 Report post Posted March 5, 2015 It appears from what I've read that Arch has sent the kibble away for testing on his own accord, not the RIU hence no adjournment. The RIU wouldn't want to wait for the results anyway, they just want the kill, guilty, out the door, next please. i cant see why he wouldn't have granted an adjournment happens in aust all the time some cases taking years, they might want to deal with cases quick but how they come to penalties is ridiculous Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 5, 2015 It appears from what I've read that Arch has sent the kibble away for testing on his own accord, not the RIU hence no adjournment. The RIU wouldn't want to wait for the results anyway, they just want the kill, guilty, out the door, next please. I would think you could test it for free, kind of.... Just put one of your socks in the feed for a minute and give it a shank around, then pack it away in your carry-on bag & board a flight to Australia. Once there, act rather suspicious so customs runs one of their detection spoons through your case and put it in their machine. Beep beep & then you'll know. At least you get a little something more for your money than a piece of paper returned from a lab, a bit of a holiday to destress. iteruka and gary1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 Hot off the press. https://www.thedogs.co.nz/News.aspx?NewsID=1441 It sounds like kibble is the source of the problem. It'll be very interesting how this one will pan out in the end. How can a trainer be held to blame for doing nothing wrong? Arch, if you're a reader here, I suggest you appeal your recent decision ASAP and see how it all pans out. You're still within the two week timeframe for doing so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary1 361 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 Hot off the press. https://www.thedogs.co.nz/News.aspx?NewsID=1441 It sounds like kibble is the source of the problem. It'll be very interesting how this one will pan out in the end. How can a trainer be held to blame for doing nothing wrong? Arch, if you're a reader here, I suggest you appeal your recent decision ASAP and see how it all pans out. You're still within the two week timeframe for doing so. wheres the product made Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoKnows 791 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 If the trainers were still continuing feeding with the same kibble we could see more positive swabs to come, especially considering the same trainers in question won 5 races last Sunday including the Railway, would be terrible to lose races by no fault of their own and I hope they appeal their penalties and get he lightest possible penalty if this happens. I've never heard of that kibble either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 wheres the product made Australia. http://www.hypropetcare.com.au/for-your-dog/dry-dog-food/product/47-superior-greyhound-nutrition-20kg Funny that, many thousands of dollars in fine & purse returns for feeding your racing dogs racing greyhound kibble. That's about the worse case of "not good enough" I've ever heard of. Lawsuits anyone? Slim Shady 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alltheway!!! 640 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 The problem here is, the riu and jca look at it like this, even if you can prove that you did not give the drugs to your dog on purpose, it is still the trainers responsibility to race there dogs drug free, hence the fine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunyarra 185 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 It states "maybe the cause" so not confirmed as yet. So it might be a bit premature convicting the manufacturer until the testing is finalised. It does seem strange that this kibble has suddenly caused positives when it has been used in the district for at least the past two years. It would also seem strange that other trainers in the area who also use it, some with larger kennels haven't returned positives. I know plenty of other kennels using it who haven't returned positives and haven't scratched their dogs on the weekend and plenty in Australia who also use it without any problems to date. Maybe it was a contaminated batch or maybe it was contaminated in another way. Even if that is the case it still seems strange how just those four kennels got it and no others. Hound Fan, Yankiwi, alltheway!!! and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter R S 412 Report post Posted March 7, 2015 Interesting reading from over the ditch. NZ authorities need to carefully consider the issue of environmental contamination particularly in the light of these recent developments here, and allow for it in their testing practices. Common sense said that there was a problem other than malpractice by several trainers, but the current rules mean honest people get penalised. "However, one problem that Lord does see with the industry relates to the swabbing issues and the sensitivity of modern drug testing techniques." “My biggest beef with the industry at the moment- I think the stewards, the CEO and the trainers; I think everybody is doing the right thing…but the biggest problem is (that) I think the swabbing is out of hand.†“The only reason I say this- if they want to swab every race, then swab every race- but they still need to have their machines set at a reasonable level so that environmental contamination doesn’t come into play.†“A lot of these positive swabs we are getting at the moment, away from testosterone, are environmental contamination. Is it going to get to the stage in years to come where our empty yards (at the track) are going to be concrete?†“Footballers go to Wentworth Park and for arguments sake they train on the field….not to say that footballers snort coke or snort speed or whatever; but what if someone is snorting coke or snorting speed and urinated on that grass and the dogs licked it? Is it possible for that dog to then get a positive swab?†“The answer is yes because the machines are set that low that environmental contamination comes into play. This is why in America now they have levels on everything. It’s not to say that everyone can go out and coke their dog, they have already tried and tested to say that the amount of nanograms they have found is not enough to make a dog run fast. But it is a safe level to say that if you’re over that level then you’re in big big trouble, but if you’re under that level they don’t even report it, it’s environmental contamination.†“That’s where my biggest beef is. They are trying to do the right thing with swabbing and keeping everybody honest and that’s fine; that’s fair enough. But when people are getting punished for things that they didn’t do, that’s wrong. As far as the game goes prizemoney is great, racing is great, I don’t have any problems.†aquaman 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmyb 277 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 Actually Greg, I was informed yesterday afternoon from the Riu that the kibble had returned positive to morphine and that they where scratching my dogs from today. I don't see why our dogs should be scratched when we are not the only ones that feed this kibble. The positives date back over 2 months now, all the trainers involved with the positives have been swabbed since with no more positive results. I can not see the justification in penalising us again. I have been using the product for at least a couple of years. I feel your inference of some other contamination in light of this result is quite unjustified. The kibble has been brought over different periods of time through two seperate retailers. Have you thought that maybe the manafacturers may have received a contaminated product ie wheat that inadvertently may have wild poppy seeds, maybe it is just the one batch, which would seem the most likely. If every dog that has raced recently was swabbed maybe some other kennels may have been in this boat also. As I said not all of my swabs have been positive so may be some dogs have different excretion times than others. I thought this was the best result having the biscuits proven to contain morphine. At least I could save mine, Tracy's, Alysha and Arch's reputation as being honest as it is all you have in this game sometimes. Its obvious though that this is going to be just as stressfull and ongoing for a while yet. At this stage we may not even be allowed to race this week either. At least I can now see who my real friends are. Wayne Steele iteruka, Jabba2, JETSUN and 18 others 21 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh77 88 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 Well Said Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunyarra 185 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 Wayne, not for one minute did I ever question your or the other trainer's integrity. What I was trying to point out is what you have stated, that if it does turn out to be the kibble, which you have now confirmed, then contamination of the product has somehow occurred. That is what needs to be identified. Has it been done deliberately, is it accidental, was it at the manufacturers, where and how has it occurred ? My apologies if it came across the wrong way. I think we know each other well enough mate. dustydreamnz, Yankiwi and modest mouse 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollyb 22 Report post Posted March 8, 2015 While i get the fact that greyhounds (and horses) are to be produced drug free I would have thought that in a situation where there were mitigating circumstances such as this that there could be some discretion given around charging someone - there are a couple of rules that say 'shall be' either disqualified (as in the case of the animal) or guilty of an offence (as in the case of the person in charge of the animal). In a situation such as this should the word be 'may be'? (Rule 86 Prohibited Substances). I know this example happened a long time ago and in a different code but I seem to remember when a horse had won an Auckland Cup (I think) returned a positive and subsequently found to have been fed some contaminated feed - the horse kept the race. I would think that the rules have changed a lot since then but thing like this can and do happen. If something is out of the control of the trainer (or person in charge of the animal) then maybe some discretion? mmmyb and Peter R S 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnybooy 52 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Sorry it is not the nzgra or jca who have to go around testing kibble. It is the responsibility of the trainer to produce a dog to the races drug free. If trainers have an issue with kibble then they should get tests themselves , and with there resources, and if anything comes of it then take it up with supplier and get your lawyer involved As a licence holder I don't want my money being spent on this. One thing I have noticed with all the positive swabs in nz. The people caught all blame something or someone else Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmyb 277 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Johnnybooy, No one expects or even suspects there to be prohibited substances in a kibble formulated solely for the racing greyhound. Would you? Are you not glad that this has been picked up on the cause of the recent positives so other trainers can be aware when using it in the future? Everyone blaming someone or something? Well I don't think the trainers that have been found with the positives are purposely giving their dogs a prohibited substance, so no excuses, just reasons. two different words, two different meanings, What I worry, as a trainer myself, with your statements, is do we as trainers have to test every single product we provide our dogs? punkrock, JETSUN and dustydreamnz 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,869 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 mmmyb, on 09 Mar 2015 - 4:38 PM, said: Johnnybooy, No one expects or even suspects there to be prohibited substances in a kibble formulated solely for the racing greyhound. Would you? Are you not glad that this has been picked up on the cause of the recent positives so other trainers can be aware when using it in the future? Everyone blaming someone or something? Well I don't think the trainers that have been found with the positives are purposely giving their dogs a prohibited substance, so no excuses, just reasons. two different words, two different meanings, What I worry, as a trainer myself, with your statements, is do we as trainers have to test every single product we provide our dogs? Is it not your responsibility as the trainer to ensure your animals turn up on Raceday drug free...If so then yes you should be sure what you give them is all clean... I would have thought??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Sorry it is not the nzgra or jca who have to go around testing kibble. It is the responsibility of the trainer to produce a dog to the races drug free. If trainers have an issue with kibble then they should get tests themselves , and with there resources, and if anything comes of it then take it up with supplier and get your lawyer involved As a licence holder I don't want my money being spent on this. One thing I have noticed with all the positive swabs in nz. The people caught all blame something or someone else How about you let me borrow your car for a couple of hours johnnybooy? Once I have your car in my possession, I'll drive around town racing past every speed camera I can find. I'll then replace the fuel I've used and return your car to you completely unharmed. All will be good for a week or so until your letter box is filled speeding tickets, which you'd be responsible for. How would you feel paying those fines off? I also should mention that I'd be going 70 kph over the speed limit in a couple of the pictures, so your car is likely going to be impounded for 30 days & you won't be able to get to work without it. kirsty, kuriracer and iteruka 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter R S 412 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Is it not your responsibility as the trainer to ensure your animals turn up on Raceday drug free...If so then yes you should be sure what you give them is all clean... I would have thought??? That's what the current rules require - the problem is that if minor contamination can occur (which clearly it can) then the rules are an ass. To take your argument to its logical conclusion, trainers would have to submit for prior testing anything they feed, maybe a sample from every bag in case they are from different batches. Not tenable! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankiwi 782 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Is it not your responsibility as the trainer to ensure your animals turn up on Raceday drug free...If so then yes you should be sure what you give them is all clean... You are absolutely correct Scooby. The problem is their greyhound trainers, not biochemical engineers or scientists. Some trainers give their dogs a bit of milk mixed in with some water after a race..... But is the milk purchased from the grocery store safe? Is the water safe for that matter? Is the kibble that they've feed their dogs for a couple of years without a problem safe today? Is their neighbour growing poppies in their flower garden again? Did that person exhale cigarette smoke near my dog? Is there anything dodgy in that fly spray I just sprayed on the bees nest next to the kennels? What's the aeroplane spraying on the farmers paddock across the street? My dog just licked where I saw the other trainers bitch piss, am I gonna get done for that? Where would it end? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,869 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 <p>Why the thoroughbred trainers seem to have found a way to get their horses clean to the races??? maybe there should be some controls on what you guys can and can't feed, only reputable feed suppliers can supply.. otherwise it is a joke, anyone can get a positive and blame the feed..and the precedent is already there.</p> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmyb 277 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 I do believe (as I've been informed) that the difference maybe for the horses (as I know it is thus way for greyhounds Australasia ) is levels of substances in the greyhound. We test for traces. Not the amounts in the system. Which plays the biggest part of the number of positive swabs in new Zealand. Minor traces don't have an effect on a dogs performance. But our system shows its their. The prohibited substance isn't of an amount to increase or decrease performance but enough to show its in the dogs system That is what we get penalties for. Traces. Not levels. (All as I've been told by trustworthy source) merv o brien 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmyb 277 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 Is it not your responsibility as the trainer to ensure your animals turn up on Raceday drug free...If so then yes you should be sure what you give them is all clean... I would have thought??? Sorry Scooby. The last bit was meant to be deleted as I couldn't word it right. By products I was going to mention. Vitamins. Biscuits above all produced by companies solely for the Consumption of a racing greyhound. So wouldn't you expect them to be clear of any prohibited substances as they would have knowledge of such .? Yes. It's our responsibility to take these dogs to the races free if prohibited substances. But the only time you really question the products your feeding your dog is when a positive swab comes back. I for one can't afford to get every product I give my 2 greyhounds tested. But should trust that the products provided manufactured for the sole consumption of the racing greyhound it should fit in with all drug rules our association and Australia have in place. JETSUN and Slim Shady 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustydreamnz 493 Report post Posted March 9, 2015 What if you've used a feed, for say 10 years and it's never caused trouble until now? Surely, you'd think you were using a reputable company. This is a tricky situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...