beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 4, 2015 I've watched things unfold at the Mildura harness meetings for several years and felt certain something was rotten in Denmark. Betting patterns in the Cramp stable that went against the form and ability of other stable runners but was reflected like a mirror in the results. Certain stable runners being obviously driven to win while others were clearly not. Those patterns also were invariably a mirror to the betting. http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/two-charged-with-fixing-harness-racing-20150202-1348cr.html The most alarming aspect of this is the question mark of just how widespread this type of situation is. As there are tens of millions of dollars involved in betting on harness racing the big wigs will be falling over themselves to portray the Mildura situation as being isolated and most definitely not widespread. What else are they going to say? I'm 100% certain the Mildura situation is not isolated at all. The fact they are making those claims without any actual evidence highlights their motivation. I've watched so many harness races from Queensland and NSW that are so obviously rorts. Most are low stake value races. Many of those races appear to have been choreographed they are so farcical. I've been talking about $2000 and $3000 stake races for a while. No owner is going to be making money with those pathetic stakes. They invite connections to find their own way of receiving financial rewards. Some take advantage due to greed. Others just to stay afloat. Well past time to keep a much closer eye on consistently successful "punters" especially when those successful wagers invariably involve the same stable(s). We all need the game to be clean. At Casino's you pull these stunts and they are onto you in a flash. Why? Because it's their money you are taking. Much slower to act in harness racing. Why? Because it's other punters money you are taking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toblerone 242 Report post Posted February 4, 2015 The $3000 races in Queenland are purely qualifiers for the $25,000 Final that same Saturday. Certainly worth avoiding those races as a betting proposition as you know the bigger target is 4 or 5 days later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 Dug this up of an Australian harness website. Think it's about three years old. VoRogue: Another Shayne Cramp rort at the home of rorts Mildura, race 2 the Crampster had 3 runners, he drove an 8/1 chance, his close mate Nafey Jack drove the 2nd horse a $3 chance, and low and behold, his 3rd runner was driven by Ellen Tormey, a $64 chance, which blasted out of the gate and led all the way and NEVER looked like losing Unitab divs 6 LEIGHMONT $74.80 9.30 10 ELQUE 1.50 8 EIGHT TEE I 2.30 LEIGHMONTBLK G 2 ELLEN TORMEY Ft Shayne Cramp Red, White & Black Panels With Saint Motiff$0 TS 2-0-0Village Jasper (USA) - Blue Moon Navajo 6th MILDURA 17Jun 1790 MS FT6 $43.8 Elque 24.2m 2-05.0 9th MILDURA 24Jun 2190 MS FT3 $82.5 Hilltop Raide 19.9m 2-07.9 VoRogue: you reckon they wouldn't pull the exact same rort just 3 races later in race 5 ? Cramp drove the $1.50 boom horse, the fav Goes Like El which had the pole, the commentator pre-empted before the start that he might get double crossed and end up 3 back pegs, well Cramp made the caller look a genius, it did happen, but Cramp managed to come of the fence and was 3 back outside. He then swept around them at the bell and didn't even have the pace to sit shotgun in order to do less work, stuck out on a limb for the last one lap plus, it was gonzo down the back straight, and who should get the juicy split in the straight coming orf Boris Devchich's back ? Bec-Bec Bartley on Primo Hanover at $27, trained by Shayne Cramp Now for the punch line...in race 8, Cramp has 2 runners, the favourite Jamie's Boy (who he got a suspension driving as a beaten fav for not trying to win) and number 3 Herdonthegrapevine, once again driven by Bec-Bec Bartley. This time everyone's expecting the rort, with Bec-Bec opening ar $7.10 the giddy goat, and the fav $3. I'm here to tell you that Bec wont run a hole, and Cramp's horse will be driven aggressively, circle the field and win running away :yes: 3HERDONTHEGRAPEVINEB G 3REBECCA BARTLEY Ft Shayne Cramp Navy Blue, Light Blue & Pink Band V, Light Blue Cuffs$4200 TS 8-0-1Modern Art (USA) - Grapevine 4th MILDURA 31May 2190 MS FT3 $7.7 Shiro Nz 8.4m 2-02.5 5th MILDURA 17Jun 1790 MS FT9 $10.4 Graybuck 38.7m 2-00.5 7th MILDURA 24Jun 1790 MS FT6 $50.9 Maastricht 36.3m 1-58.8 9JAMIES BOY BR G 3SHAYNE CRAMP Ft Shayne Cramp Navy Blue, Light Blue Striped Sleeves, Pink Cuffs$6862 TS 11-2-3Washington Vc (USA) - Jamies Lass (NZ) WON NYAH 07Jun 1765 MS FT5 $3.1 1.6m 2-00.4 2nd MILDURA 17Jun 1790 MS FT9 $2.20F Maastricht 5.0m 2-00.0 2nd MILDURA 24Jun 1790 MS FT11 $3.1 Maastricht 12.8m 1-58.8 VoRogue: how predictable, they went like the clappers up front, Cramp smoking his pipe near the back of the field, and sustained a 500 metre sprint to win running away And Bec Bec was unplaced, just like the script read :bop: 9 JAMIES BOY 2.60 1.30 5 GRAYBUCK 1.80 1 DEL BOCA VISTA 3.20 Stylish: Not a place to be punting at unless u r a Cramp member!! The sooner they piss Mildura off the better. The Red Hots is an apt expression that comes to mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 maybe as big a scandal as what happened in nsw. Probably one of those no good, jealous, thin skinned underachieving conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do started what will be unwanted bad press for harness racing in Australia. Bastards! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 maybe as big a scandal as what happened in nsw. Probably one of those no good, jealous, thin skinned underachieving conspiracy theorists with nothing better to do started what will be unwanted bad press for harness racing in Australia. Bastards! You can't be serious? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 My point is sometimes things are quite obvious but if you point the obvious out you will be the one criticized and ridiculed. I don't follow racing at mildura much as when I have had a bet for an interest ive realised if you want to back the winner you have to back one of the cramp runners. They seem to have their tactics worked out before the start and ive always thought those in the know would be doing well. This fellow cramp is obviously a very good driver and trainer. What was also obvious is you cant dominate like he has without questions being asked. I thought it only a matter of time. No doubt those who originally raised their concerns would have been described by the names I mentioned in my first post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 This is a very interesting story. Seems the betting agencies have been moaning for a while. Links to horse doping. Who is the prominent Australian harness trainer supplying cobalt to harness and galloping trainers throughout Australia. Does he have any friends in nz. Links to organised crime. Quotes like 'Previous inquiries failed to dissuade this activity". Have authorities not realised it does not work if you tell people we will ignore what you've done so far if your good boys from now on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 What a post: When I read your first post it seemed you were advocating shoot the messenger. The whole thin skinned jealous under achieving conspiracy theorists seemed an odd thing to say. Who was that directed at? I agree with you on the jealousy score. In every industry or sport I've ever been involved in there are certain stances that come out toward high achievers. I will try and categorize them. 1) Normal healthy respect toward a participant who achieves excellent results and stands out from the others. 2) Almost sycophantic hero worshiping as if the high achiever can walk on water. 3) Indifference toward high achievers 4) Those who will be jealous and resentful of that high achiever and try and drag them down in every possible way. It always pays to check the motivation of finger pointers. That aside the Cramp stable have been up to skulduggery for many years. Are all their winners suspect? Absolutely not. Are they top trainers and drivers? Absolutely yes. Have they been manipulating race results via dubious methods for many years? Absolutely yes. Now they have been exposed in mainstream media I hope examples are made of them. First penalty is a prison sentence appropriate for the level of fraud involved in addition to a life long ban from the game. Can you remember the Canadian Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson? He was an incredibly fast runner who was respected and admired around the world. Is that what he will be remembered as? No. He will be remembered for being disqualified for doping after winning gold in the 100 meter final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics. What the Cramps have been up to for at least a decade makes Ben Johnson look like a choir boy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted February 5, 2015 The original post was directed at those who ignore the obvious .Where do you want me to start. Ive read published comments from Trainers representatives, authorities, Media representatives e.g. Mick Guerin & john curtain etc,etc. all who appear to believe those who say negative comments about certain subjects or trainers are as originally described. These people seem to take the approach that certain practices are part of the sport and you should accept that. What you have failed to describe is 5)those who respect and admire those who achieve in what is a very competitive industry and are neither jealous or resentful but believe for the good of the horse and the industry any practices which give some unfair advantages over others should be highlighted. At the end of the day the same people would be the most successful in our sport if that level playing field existed. Interesting that you refer to ben Johnson. I was reading an article last week where the writer had asked him in a recent interview if he would dope again . His answer was YES . The same author referred to a study taken over 25 years ago in usa of their top athletes where they were asked if they would take performance enhancers if they were to win a gold medal but would be dead in 5 years. Over half said yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 The Mildura community, harness racing included, is a microcosm unlike any other in Australia. The influence that flows down the Sturt Highway from Griffith is one that has been around for many decades. Before singling out the Cramps, it would pay to look back well before the "Cramp era", to see "where it all began". Whilst the Underbelly TV series made for great viewing, it is also a great place to get an insight into what makes Mildura tick - particularly anything that involves gambling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil 333 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 What a post: When I read your first post it seemed you were advocating shoot the messenger. The whole thin skinned jealous under achieving conspiracy theorists seemed an odd thing to say. Who was that directed at? I agree with you on the jealousy score. In every industry or sport I've ever been involved in there are certain stances that come out toward high achievers. I will try and categorize them. 1) Normal healthy respect toward a participant who achieves excellent results and stands out from the others. 2) Almost sycophantic hero worshiping as if the high achiever can walk on water. 3) Indifference toward high achievers 4) Those who will be jealous and resentful of that high achiever and try and drag them down in every possible way. It always pays to check the motivation of finger pointers. That aside the Cramp stable have been up to skulduggery for many years. Are all their winners suspect? Absolutely not. Are they top trainers and drivers? Absolutely yes. Have they been manipulating race results via dubious methods for many years? Absolutely yes. Now they have been exposed in mainstream media I hope examples are made of them. First penalty is a prison sentence appropriate for the level of fraud involved in addition to a life long ban from the game. Can you remember the Canadian Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson? He was an incredibly fast runner who was respected and admired around the world. Is that what he will be remembered as? No. He will be remembered for being disqualified for doping after winning gold in the 100 meter final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics. What the Cramps have been up to for at least a decade makes Ben Johnson look like a choir boy. This is stretching things a bit. Far from being 'respected and admired', Johnson was universally suspected of being on the rocket juice, which was finally confirmed when he got careless. He was also internationally (in)famous and very wealthy--the Cramps are neither. Johnson was Sydney, the Cramps are the bush. When stakes are too low to sustain the stakeholders, it's hardly surprising that some will look for other ways to keep body and soul together. Anybody betting on such races would surely know that it's very much a case of 'caveat punter'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 This is stretching things a bit. Far from being 'respected and admired', Johnson was universally suspected of being on the rocket juice, which was finally confirmed when he got careless. He was also internationally (in)famous and very wealthy--the Cramps are neither. Johnson was Sydney, the Cramps are the bush. When stakes are too low to sustain the stakeholders, it's hardly surprising that some will look for other ways to keep body and soul together. Anybody betting on such races would surely know that it's very much a case of 'caveat punter'. What a load of bullshit! The Cramps have been orchestrating a well organised rort for years. Nothing to do with keeping the body and soul together. Everything to do with fraud and greed. As for Ben Johnson. I used him as a comparison for being a disgraced sporting achiever of note. He will be remembered for cheating rather than what a superb runner he was who won numerous titles. Nothing to do with living in the bush or mud hut or what breakfast cereal they ate ffs! Your advice is "Don't bet at Mildura". Why? Because it's likely to a choreographed rort. I've got a better idea. Clean up the rort so confidence can return and criminal offenders receive consequence for their actions. Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 The Mildura community, harness racing included, is a microcosm unlike any other in Australia. The influence that flows down the Sturt Highway from Griffith is one that has been around for many decades. Before singling out the Cramps, it would pay to look back well before the "Cramp era", to see "where it all began". Whilst the Underbelly TV series made for great viewing, it is also a great place to get an insight into what makes Mildura tick - particularly anything that involves gambling. Thanks for the heads up Jack. We have friends who live in Country Victoria at Robinvale,Swan Hill. Have visited them many times and been to the trots at Mildura numerous times over the years. I don't single out the Cramps. They single themselves out via their actions. I well appreciate Mildura is not your typical Australian harness venue and the Cramps are not the first to have their hands jammed in the cookie jar. They are the ones that have been exposed at this time for treating the game with contempt long term. This is not my first rodeo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil 333 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 What a load of bullshit! The Cramps have been orchestrating a well organised rort for years. Nothing to do with keeping the body and soul together. Everything to do with fraud and greed. As for Ben Johnson. I used him as a comparison for being a disgraced sporting achiever of note. He will be remembered for cheating rather than what a superb runner he was who won numerous titles. Nothing to do with living in the bush or mud hut or what breakfast cereal they ate ffs! Your advice is "Don't bet at Mildura". Why? Because it's likely to a choreographed rort. I've got a better idea. Clean up the rort so confidence can return and criminal offenders receive consequence for their actions. 'Bullshit'? You mean I have the temerity to suggest you might be getting a bit carried away in your self-appointed role as RC's morals guardian? It's always a good idea to think about the consequences of what you wish for. Suppose the Cramps are, as you insist (despite no evidence having yet been presented), guilty as sin and are subsequently made an example of. Do you seriously think nobody else will step into the void? As long as there are $3000 races going around, it's going to be worth it to somebody to try and make a quid a different way. What you call 'greed', others would just call 'responding to incentives'. There is a solution to this that doesn't require holier-than-thou sanctimony, but simply borrows from the financial markets model. Most countries have two tiers of stock exchange. One, the visible kind, is governed by all kinds of rules and regulations (continuous dosclosure, reporting requirements etc) designed to protect investors to the maximum extent possible. The other, less visible, kind provides minimal protection and participation is very much at investors' own risk (in NZ, this market is called Unlisted; Leanne Dalziel tried to shut it down in 2005, but fortunately came to her senses). Those who participate in the latter kind of market are very well aware what they're getting into. It's just the same at Mildura. Behaviour there may indeed not be up to the standards required at Flemington, Addington etc, but it caters to a market that's well aware of what's going on. Far better to let that market get on with it in its own way than to waste industry and taxpayer resources on a futile 'one-size-fits-all' campaign that wouldn't pass any conceivable cost-benefit test. the shue25 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSprat 947 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 The Cramps are simply a symptom of the problems in the region, and certainly not the root cause of the problems. Any enquiry that concludes with harsh penalties for the Cramps might make for good press for the authorities for a week or two, but will do absolutely nothing to fix the situation, or for that matter, deter the next participant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 You have no idea what you're gibbering on about. First you say the Cramps diabolical cheating and race manipulation is just a stable looking for a way to keep body and soul together. That sounds exactly like an apologist attempting to justify the Cramps rorting their fellow trainers and punters across Australasia. You may like to join their defence team. Then you accuse me of being a self appointed moral guardian preaching holier than thou sanctimony. How long has your brain been starved of oxygen pal? I love the harness industry. Unfortunately there are selfish greedy bastards in the industry that will happily risk dragging the game through the mud as long as they get what they want. Yes I have feelings about that as do many others. Before this scandal is done and dusted the Cramps will have gone a long way toward destroying confidence in the industry from numerous directions. So anyone else who dislikes that situation is a self appointed moral guardian preaching holier than thou sanctimony ? They couldn't possibly be just a participant that despises cheating could they? I fully agree that $3000 stakes encourage race manipulation. I've been saying it for years. The Mildura races were not $3000 races. They were just the similar value races on offer every day around Australia and NZ. Regardless of stake value nothing justifies fraud and cheating. Good luck trying to get traction on that. You say no evidence has been presented over the actions of the Cramp stable. What planet have you been living on? I've been watching that stable manipulate races at will for the last ten years. Many others have seen exactly the same thing. Investigators have conducted a substantial ten month investigation of the stable's antics. As a result of a well advanced investigation there has been way more than enough evidence obtained to suspend the Cramps. Has that evidence been fully disclosed to the public yet? No but you don't need to be a rocket scientist to join the dots especially when you've been witnessing it yourself for ten years and have been informed about the rorts by someone else very close to the action. I have at least 20 emails on my computer going back to 2007 from a horseman in the same general area as the Cramps pointing out their highly dubious situations. In terms of rorts etc it matters not one jot if another stable will step into the void left by the impending demise of the Cramp stable. Clean the industry up. One event at a time. The fall out from the Cramp situation will be widespread. Are the Cramps the only stable rorting hard working fellow trainers and punters who bet in good faith? Absolutely not but what has that got to do with anything? diddly! Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerwithduncan 724 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 The Cramps are simply a symptom of the problems in the region, and certainly not the root cause of the problems. Any enquiry that concludes with harsh penalties for the Cramps might make for good press for the authorities for a week or two, but will do absolutely nothing to fix the situation, or for that matter, deter the next participant. I'm sure you're right Jack but if a harsh enough penalty is imposed the deterrent factor may have a chance of success. The biggest issue I have with the Cramp case is not that it happened. It's that it's been happening with them for so long. They have been taking the piss for many many years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted February 6, 2015 From what I can see the normal stake at mildura is $6275 for all classes.. That is more than a lot of nz meetings. Basil the last paragraph of your last post is plain disturbing if you really think that. Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the shue25 145 Report post Posted February 7, 2015 so are the cramps actually up on charges as we speak.? I mean as for the betting on their longshots,it would only take a 100 each way to make a 50 dollar shot come into 12 dollars as no money in the pools anyway.Like to hear more about this as I like to bet on the trots,but then again mildura is a bit of a joke place ro bet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooters 12 Report post Posted February 20, 2015 What a post: When I read your first post it seemed you were advocating shoot the messenger. The whole thin skinned jealous under achieving conspiracy theorists seemed an odd thing to say. Who was that directed at? I agree with you on the jealousy score. In every industry or sport I've ever been involved in there are certain stances that come out toward high achievers. I will try and categorize them. 1) Normal healthy respect toward a participant who achieves excellent results and stands out from the others. 2) Almost sycophantic hero worshiping as if the high achiever can walk on water. 3) Indifference toward high achievers 4) Those who will be jealous and resentful of that high achiever and try and drag them down in every possible way. It always pays to check the motivation of finger pointers. That aside the Cramp stable have been up to skulduggery for many years. Are all their winners suspect? Absolutely not. Are they top trainers and drivers? Absolutely yes. Have they been manipulating race results via dubious methods for many years? Absolutely yes. Now they have been exposed in mainstream media I hope examples are made of them. First penalty is a prison sentence appropriate for the level of fraud involved in addition to a life long ban from the game. Can you remember the Canadian Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson? He was an incredibly fast runner who was respected and admired around the world. Is that what he will be remembered as? No. He will be remembered for being disqualified for doping after winning gold in the 100 meter final at the 1988 Seoul Olympics. What the Cramps have been up to for at least a decade makes Ben Johnson look like a choir boy. You do realize Ben Johson had been cheating for years yes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
