Val De Loir

[Tatura 121]

For some time now I have been following this stallions influence in staying families.

Our greatest staying sire Zabeel's second dam is by Val de Loir who's dam Vali is by Sunny Boy.

I am convinced that having VdL within four removes and especially on the bottom line gives one a good chance of having a long distance stayer and especially crossing this female line with sadlers wells or sons of.

Authorised has two strains of VdL and it's interesting to note that Admire Rakti's dam is by Hellissio who is by Sadlers wells half brother and having VdL on the bottom line.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I have noticed VdL in many staying horses pedigrees.Gondokoro is an example. Vali being her third dam.

I am so convinced I purchased a mare a few years ago with Vali also as her third dam.

What do others think about my theory,

[Dopey 214]

Also I think dandino has VdL in his bottom quarter !?

[Swynford 121]

Tatura,    

 

  the part of your theory that I really like is you purchased a mare who traces in direct female line to the horse that you admire.

(Rather than purchasing a mare with Vali in a certain generation.)

 

I'm not sure why, but my thinking is the females have the ability to throw their genetics forward in direct female line ( from female to female) many generations and knowing this is an easy way to tap into a particular bloodline or family group.

 

I really think you are on the right path. The breeder who bred Gondokoro and Zabillioniare from a mare he brought specially because of her compatibility with Zabeel, achieved the same result  (two Group One winners) that took about 100 Danehill mares to achieve.

 

Would love to see the rest of your mares pedigree. What is her name.

[Tatura 121]

Yes Swynford I am an advocate of strong female family lines. The mare is Princess Wonder and another thing I like about her breeding is her second dam is by Darshaan which gives me many breeding options to produce Gr winning stayers.I have noticed that Darshaan mares crossed with Sadlers Wells, and sons of, has produced one of the largest numbers of Gr1 wining stayers in the world.

Fortunately I purchased this mare before Gondokoro won.

[Nasrullah 180]

Agree, any Sadlers Wells blood anywhere in a stallion would be good and the mare having Nureyev blood is a bonus.

 

Any Machiavellian line stallion would add a lot to this Desert Prince mare.

 

Go to Truenicks website and test out the sons and grandsons of Machiavellian that are at stud in NZ.

 

Only gives half the picture but is outstanding with Princess Wonder with one up showing 25% SW to starters!!!

[Swynford 121]

here is the pedigree of one of the fastest breeze ups for the Ready To Run Sale.  Not bad for a Savabeel. Great example of using the male line of the mare (s)  to breed back to brood-mare sires in the stallion. Or in this case the stallions father,  Nice duplication of Val De Loir

[Berri 2,131]

I still don't get it swynford and I have been trying...not trying to knock a theory, but simply trying to understand.

 

Val De Loir is a staying stallion and very stout at that I might add. Most horses have crosses and duplications coming out of their ears so this is nothing unique. I'm not sure why you are trying in indicate that the fastest breeze up may be the fatsest breeze up because of the double up of Nureyev and Val de Loir because that's not where the sense of this horses speed comes from.

 

And the type of the horse will be the indication as to where it has come from.

 

This horse is by Savabeel out of a Success Express mare. I was present at the Breeders Cup when he won the Juvenile. He was a very strong powerful horse and his bloodlines were all about speed.

 

Your ready to runner is out of a Stravinsky mare (speed) out of a Famous Star (speed) out of a Avary (Miler) out of Silly Season (speed).

 

The RTR's dam side is all about speed APART from Val De Loir and to some extent Crepello, who although he won the Derby, was a fragile horse with speed.

 

So the question is, on type, which of these horses in its pedigree has it thrown to?

[Berri 2,131]

I meant that Savabeel was out of a Success Express mare

[Tatura 121]

I tend to agree with you Berri on this RTR horse as Stravinsky,Famous Star and Silly Season are all speed horses as are many of Savabeel's dam sires.  Interestingly my mare has thrown speed horses to Capt Rio and Cecconi and even the Kilimanjaro won at 1400 to 1700m.I put that down to the Green Desert blood close up in her pedigree. I really should be sending her to a Zabeel sire,maybe after Cape Blanco this year,if I want a stayer.

Lankin Rupee is out of a Stravinsky mare but of course by Redoute's.

[Breeder 608]

Do buyers at the RTR sales place a huge amount of their decision to buy on the time of the trial ? I can remember when the sales first started and there seemed to be a lot of talk about times but now not so much --am I right ?

 If I was buying I think I would have a good horseman along side to tell me about the horse's action , stride etc. which I think is more important than the time. ( This to be put along side pedigree & type in my decision to bid)

[Nasrullah 180]

I agree with you Breeder.

Some horses may cover their ground easy in 11.00 while a horse who does it in under 10.5 may be doing it flat out.

Also some horses at the RTR may be 3yo Derby type horses by staying sires. They will need more time than a 2yo type.

[d.burrow - Joan 224]

Lot 299 Savaveel - Classical 

 

Hi Guys, As I bred and own this chap, I will add a little bit more to the debate.

Why did I bred Classical to Savabeel?

a] At the time I thought that Savabeel was about to take off, and at 20K good value.

b] I liked the pedigree because of the duplication of Nureyev and Val De Loir.

c] I had earlier mated Classical's mum to Zabeel [Val De Loir duplication] and got a Stakes Winner [Game On].

d] The Nureyev duplication added another dimension to the pedigree and of course the Val De Loir duplication was retained.

e] If  the resultant foal threw to either, Savabeel, Nureyev or even Val De Loir [less likely] then I was on a winner.

You have seen the pedigree, check out the very small video clip, taken when I visited the stable three days before the Breeze Up's, and tell me who you think he has thrown to.

 

IMG_1771.MOV

 

Darryl

 

 

 

 

 

[Swynford 121]

Quote from  Berri....{ I still don't get it swynford and I have been trying...not trying to knock a theory, but simply trying to understand.

 

Val De Loir is a staying stallion and very stout at that I might add. Most horses have crosses and duplications coming out of their ears so this is nothing unique. I'm not sure why you are trying in indicate that the fastest breeze up may be the fatsest breeze up because of the double up of Nureyev and Val de Loir because that's not where the sense of this horses speed comes from.}

 

...........firstly Berri thank you for trying to understand.  you usually knock. How ever I will attempt in another thread to explain why line breeding or duplications can be the shortest root to a Group One winner

 

As always Beri I'm impressed by your knowledge of a particular stallions ability but I can't get my head around the fact that  Stravinsky, (speed) Famous Star (speed) Avaray (miler) Silly Season (speed)  and.... Classical.... (slow) 

 

The thoroughbred as I understand is a hybrid and was created with the use of a lot of inbreeding or linebreeding so I'm not reinventing the wheel here. 

 I have been studying pedigrees for close on 20 years and recently completed an in depth study of every stallion in Australia and New Zealand so I see patterns over a very wide range of stallions and over a lot of decades. I believe with the right mare it is easy to breed back to Zabeel, Sir Tristram, Sir Ivor, Sadler's Wells etc.you name it. My technology is proven, has created millions for others  (hope to enjoy similar success myself in near future.)  I know a good pedigree when I see one and thats what I saw when I looked at lot 299. It is the position of the duplications that took my eye.  Looking at the mare Nureyev on the male line of the first dam and Val De Loir on the male line of the third dam, these two horses appear as brood-mare sires in Zabeel and that to me is a perfect way to breed back to Zabeel. (other than using his direct female line,) There is a further line breeding pattern  that I liked and that is on the male line of the fourth dam, the horse Menow, who is a three quarter brother to Sir Ivor's grand dam Athenia. Interesting that Menow was a champion two year old. With three strong patterns all pointing to the top of the pedigree, if we were playing cards I would say Darryl is sitting on a fist full. I think he has done a great job here with lot 299  to my mind Classical is a perfect match for Zabeel. 

 

Tatura could do like wise with his mare Princess Wonder if he chose.

 

I'm not sure which horse 299 has thrown too, maybe Darryl has created a new masterpiece of his own. Will be interesting to watch the progress as I see lot 168 carries the same pattern.

[Swynford 121]

Berri.....    I have recently looked at all the lots in the Ready To Run Sale and found about 70 out of nearly 400 with duplications or line breeding patterns in what I would call good positions. Of those there are some that really stand out. 

I think someone looking at just conformation or type as you call it would find a similar ratio.  

 

 

And I have seen one particular horse who's pedigree I liked but I certainly wouldn't buy that horse.

 

Buyers who look at the genetics first, finalise there selection on type along with a horse that ran a respectable time will have the highest strike rate of success.

[Swynford 121]

Always nice to see a Group One winner by the same stallion carrying a similar pattern. I would have thought Val De Loir to be quite rare on the male line of mares in New Zealand.

[Swynford 121]

If one looks at the pedigree of lot 299 and the pedigree of the horse below the duplications are in almost the same position.  Using the male line (s) of the mares to breed back to a particular stallion through his brood-mare sires.

 

I predicted Encosta De Lago would become a sire of sires for this very reason quite a few  years ago.

 

There is lots more to breeding thoroughbreds than just copying line breeding patterns, But I think it is a great place to start and produces the best results.

 

The horse below has a full brother called Deep Field that is pretty good too

[Swynford 121]

When planning matings this is the kind of mare we would use to breed back to Thorn Park. Hope you get the drift. Results so far encouraging.

[Henri Jooste 40]

For what it’s worth here are some observations on the topic around Val de Loir and also the mare Princess Wonder.

Though Princess Wonder is a half-sister to Kisumu the dam of Gondokorno and Zabeelionaire they are poles apart, firstly as racehorses in ability and then their respective sires Desert Prince and Carnegie have had very different outcomes as broodmare sires. Princess Wonder raced only once finishing 20 lengths last in a field of eleven runners. Kisumu on the other hand was a stakes class horse who ran 3rd behind Miss Finland in the GR2 Armanasco Stakes.

IMHO what suits Kisumu in terms of stallion compatibility may not work for Princess Wonder. Princess Wonder has shown that she can produce good winners to sires such as Kilimanjaro and Captain Rio. The challenge lies in finding compatibility for her sire Desert Prince who takes the distaff pedigree on a totally different tangent to that of Kisumu through Carnegie.

Linebreeding to Val de Loir himself or to Vali has largely been a disappointment and at best results are no better than average. It would appear that Zabeel is the best conduit for such experiments and it begs the question whether it is Zabeel himself rather than the duplication of Val De Loir or Vali that deserves the credit. Montjeu looks promising in this department.

Some of the well-intended suggestions included consideration of Machiavellian line sires and also Sadler’s Wells in the quest for a suitable sire for Princess Wonder. Daughters of Desert Prince have been tried with a variety of sons and grandsons of Machiavellian and not a single stakes winner or stakes placed runner has been produced this way. The situation has been much the same with Sadler’s Wells and his sons, there has only been a single stakes winner , Havana Beat (Teofilo) out of daughters of Desert Prince. The picture is also similar with Nureyev and his sire sons and grandsons, to date not a single stakes winner or stakes placed horse has been produced between them!

The best horse out of a Desert Prince mare is Alfred Nobel winner of the GR1 Phoenix Stakes. Alfred Nobel is by Danehill Dancer, interestingly Choisir (by Danehill Dancer) has sired Three Sea Captains a listed stakes winner out of the Desert Prince mare La Tintoretta. Danehill Dancer and Choisir have bred 11 foals from mares by Desert Prince.

[Tatura 121]

Princess Wonder broke down while in work as a 2yo and if you saw the size of her there is little wonder. In her first and only start later on she went amiss in the same leg during the running so she can be excused for her poor performance. Thus she was retired.

She showed a huge amount of ability as a 2yo hence the reason why they tried to get her to the races later on. It seems she may have shown more ability than any others from her dam. She weighs just over 600kgs.

 

Often Henri it pays to look into reasons why things happen in racing. I consider Gondo and Zab very dour in their racing even though they have won what they have. On the other hand Desert Prince has passed on a considerable amount of speed into PW's progeny one having won at 1000m three in a row.

 

Authorised won three G1's a G2 and 2nd in another G1 in seven starts.He has duplications of Val de Loir and I wouldn't call him a slug.

 

I will stick to my theory and you can stick to yours Henri that's what makes breeding so interesting there a few experts out there. One can find duplications and crosses  in most good horses if one looks far enough back. The only advice I can give to budding breeders and trainers is that every good horse shows ability from day one .  I 've ridden a $600 horse that won the Derby.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Tatura or may I call you Ian ?

 

The point of my post Ian was to try and be helpful to enable you to unlock the latent potential of your mares pedigree. I have some provided facts that may shed light on the subject and that may assist you with your sire selection, Princess Wonder is not a young mare so the opportunities are diminishing. This is a case of  "don't shoot the messenger", rather take the time to absorb the information and reflect on it.

 

I have learnt a lot in the process of reviewing this mare and have a greater insight into the merits of linebreeding and inbreeding to Vali and Val De Loir as a result and after all that's what this breeding forum is all about isn't it ? I wish you every success with your endeavour.

[Tatura 121]

Thankyou Henri.

 

Last season PW was to go to Zabeel but not to be. She has again been served by Cape Blanco this season. I am aware she probably should be served by a Zabeel sire but commercially, what is there in NZ?

To date her progeny have great presence and sell well, have shown ability but not top drawer,sometimes good things take time.

I also have many other mares to play around with so she's not my only project.

 

Great hobby this breeding game especially when you get to break,ride and race the results.

[Berri 2,131]

Lot 299 Savaveel - Classical 

 

Hi Guys, As I bred and own this chap, I will add a little bit more to the debate.

Why did I bred Classical to Savabeel?

a] At the time I thought that Savabeel was about to take off, and at 20K good value.

b] I liked the pedigree because of the duplication of Nureyev and Val De Loir.

c] I had earlier mated Classical's mum to Zabeel [Val De Loir duplication] and got a Stakes Winner [Game On].

d] The Nureyev duplication added another dimension to the pedigree and of course the Val De Loir duplication was retained.

e] If  the resultant foal threw to either, Savabeel, Nureyev or even Val De Loir [less likely] then I was on a winner.

You have seen the pedigree, check out the very small video clip, taken when I visited the stable three days before the Breeze Up's, and tell me who you think he has thrown to.

 

IMG_1771.MOV

 

Darryl

 

Success Express with a smattering of Zabeel. No Nyreyev, No val de Loir, walks like a Stravinsky but isn't one on shape, not a Famous Star, a slight argument that there is some Silly Season there. Looks sharp