who to send my mare to

[Ruby 160]

To be fair Henri that's pretty far back don't you think? If it was within the first two generations maybe look for a similar pattern but a bit too far back for me - a lot more breeding under the bridge since Caracciola (1978).

[Breeder 609]

Henri --interesting to see that All is Secret is a grey as well. I'm not sure what you can read into the fact that the female line of this family is carrying the grey colour so strongly through the generations but it seems extraordinarily dominant.

 

Also there is a source of Goldkeeper in NZ with Tiger Prawn.

[Ruby 160]

So Nek minute had a closer look at the offspring of Blue Heaven - she has produced several good horses with of course Pasta Post being the best. It appears that the more successful have the Zabeel/Centaine factor but she has worked well also with Halo, Mr P, and Blakeney so here goes:

Zed $5,000 = gives you Zabeel/ Eight Carat and another 2 x ND (excellent temperament, will take time)

Super Easy $7,500 = 2 x Sir T (unproven but will appeal to Asian buyer - but progeny has to pass vet!)

He's Remarkable $4,000 = gives you Zabeel/Cetaine and Blakeney (unproven but proven Aus racing)

Jimmy Choux $10,000 = brings Centaine forward - unproven stallion but proven at top level NZ and Aus

Tiger Prawn $4,500 = unproven has Mr P, Crimson Saint, and ND - will appeal to Asian buyers

Perfectly Ready $5,000 and No Excuse Needed $6,000 both give you Mr P, Halo and ND - I see Blue Heaven foaled to PR both are proven with NEN having better stats but he has been around longer PR still finished in the top 20 last season of several categories in stallion stats.

Lastly another unproven - Rock'n'Pop $9,000 gives you 2 x Sir T, 2 x ND and Crimson Saint and let's face it Fastnet Rock is hot!!! :)

I'm sure there will be arguments for many others but remember at the end of the day the mare is yours and you make your own decision - Good luck - please post resultant foal pic in due course

[Nasrullah 180]

Will add my comments but I personally think Sophie Louise should go for a stallion that does not have Northern Dancer on its top line ( sire line).

1.Per Incanto- Machiavellian line with another trial winner today by 3 lengths in the fastest time.

2.Zed - Sir T line and a stallion that is going to continue to deliver.

3. Jakkalberry- Machiavellian line and Grey Sovereign in the female line.

4.No Excuse Needed- Machiavellian line who has a nice grey mare called I Do going around.

[Berri 2,131]

RE Indy King suggestion....why not just try to breed a dirt horse to run on the turf? Henri....take the blinkers off. Dirt horses are different from turf horses. They tend to have longer cannons and pasterns. The shape of the arse if different and their temperaments are different. As they need to run sectionals to be on the pace (harder to run on late in the ground with all that crap being thrown everywhere) their brains needs to be fractionally hotter and not as relaxed as in the UK.

 

So to the mating as I've now seen the pedigree. She's greay and sold for $7000 as a youngster and her half sister for $3000 as a weanling this year.  The grey probably comes from here great grand dam's sire, Zedaan. He was seriously fast but seriously tempremental. He was a champion sire and racehorse. What's here temperament like because that's three quarters of making a race horse.

 

The concept of going to a line of Sir tristam may not be a bad one. The fashion is moving towards stayers with class again so for a nZ bred horse this may be the way to go. Sufficient may be the way to go. He's  strong brute with a great temparament.

[nek minute 296]

thanks for the info guys your all so helpfull. so many things to think of and get my head around!!! she is quite hot headed and could only handle small preps. keep up the good work guys 

[Pegs Pride 376]

If mine, I'd definitely be looking at Ekraar!

[Breeder 609]

It is interesting that nik minute says Sophie Louise was very hot headed. Grey Sovereign also had a hot temperament --Zeddaan ??

( Sovereign Edition from the GS line was also "firey"). So we have the colour and temperament tracking strongly through the generations.

Or am I reading too much into this ?? Serious question.

 

 How difficult would it be to bred out the " hot head" in this situation and indeed would you want to try, given there have been a few good horses in the family ??

  Either way it would seen nik minute will need to take the stallions temperament into account. ( at the very least you would not want to go to one that had any signs of a firely nature.)

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Interested in your comments on the grey colouring Berri. Without wanting to sound like a 'know-all', the colour actually comes from one of its immediate parents. You must have at least one grey parent to get a grey so you will find, [if you want to check], that there is an unbroken line of grey going right back - way past Zeddaan. [ Grey is not a recessive gene ie; carried without showing up as the colour of the foal, unlike say, chestnut. That's why when you breed two bays, for example, you can sometimes get a chestnut.] Whenever you breed a grey, there is a 50% chance the resultant foal will be grey. 

 

I like the horse you mention [ Sufficient] as a possible sire very much. I think he will improve his position on the sire table very strongly in the next couple of seasons.

Cheers

Lloyd

[Henri Jooste 40]

RE Indy King suggestion....why not just try to breed a dirt horse to run on the turf? Henri....take the blinkers off. Dirt horses are different from turf horses. They tend to have longer cannons and pasterns. The shape of the arse if different and their temperaments are different. As they need to run sectionals to be on the pace (harder to run on late in the ground with all that crap being thrown everywhere) their brains needs to be fractionally hotter and not as relaxed as in the UK.

Based on your assessment above Sir Tristram should never have been given an opportunity in New Zealand and Danehill with his all American dirt pedigree should have failed in Australia as well.

Berri you normally talk sense, however this time you are talking a nonsense. There is no reason why Indy King’s offspring should not be adept with local conditions, remember he is only half of the equation, local mares the other half. Sons of A.P. Indy (Camden Park and Judpot) have already made their mark in South Africa where racing takes place almost exclusively on Turf. In Australia Bernardini has shown he can produce some good sorts too.

The last person who made similar comments about the surface aptitudes and the lack of suitability for these climes was none other than Colin Whightman. Remember he was the genius who said that Sadler’s Wells and his kin were “poofter blood”, mud larks and did not have the temperament to succeed down under. Wightman wrote off both Montjeu and High Chaparral and made the bold prediction that the son of Sadler’s Wells most likely to succeed in New Zealand would be Desert Fox because of his conformation !! That same expert harped on about dirt versus turf horses and how unsuitable American horses were for the Southern Hemisphere, as a result of his ranting Van Nistelrooy was withdrawn from service in these parts. In the short time he stood in NZ he sired 8 stakes winners including NZ Oaks winner Boundless.

Long cannons did not prove a hindrance to the mighty Phar Lap either come to think of it.

[Henri Jooste 40]

The temperament issue with Sophie Louise may well be attributed closer to home than Zeddaan and very likely to Storm Bird the grand sire of Postponed. Storm Bird had a reputation for being hot, a trait which he passed on to his son Storm Cat who seemed to get a double dose.

[Forrest 78]

Northern dancer was mainly a dirt horse, he didn't do too bad in the breeding barn.

[fitzy 143]

"Based on your assessment above Sir Tristram should never have been given an opportunity in New Zealand and Danehill with his all American dirt pedigree should have failed in Australia as well."

 

Henri are you serious???? Sir T's sire Sir Ivor is rated one of the best Epsom Derby winners of the last 50 years - you may have noticed its raced on grass!!  Danehill likewise was one of the better sprinters in the UK of the past 30 odd years. His sire Danzig proved himself as a successful sire on grass and dirt - possibly the best cross over sire ever!!.

 

No way can you suggest these two have a "dirt track" biased pedigree.

All in all Berri does raise some valid points - a number of Amercian sirelines have possibly succeded due to an ability to race well on dirt but have not been as successful on grass.

 

In my view Mr Prospector has been a good example of this. By and large he has been less successful (and likewise his sire sones like Miswaki etc) in Australasia, with a few noteable exceptions. Its interesting to note that many of the exceptions have shown good form on wet tracks but not so much on firm tracks, again indicating why they have succeded on the dirt.
 

[Breeder 609]

Henri,

 

 Your comment re SL's temperament maybe coming from Storm Bird --I agree and thought about this after putting up my last post.

 

 Does anyone know what the Postpones , in general , were like from a temperament point of view ?

[Tatura 121]

I seriously think Gorky Park at $1000 is the best value stallion. Two trial runners two seconds.I am considering sending a mare there.

He may not be at a big time stud but I note that some Windsor Park owned mares have been served by him.

Two have sold at the festival sale for $5000 and $8000, not the worst.

What do others think?

 

I have no connection to the stallion.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Welcome to the forum Tatura.

 

There is absolutely no reason why Gorky Park should not prove to be a capable sire. He was a good hard knocking racehorse proven under Australian conditions, his credentials on pedigree and performance are comparable with Guillotine.  Montjeu has made the progression to being recognized as a sire of sires. Paxton Park is a good outfit and if he is up to it Gorky Park will go from strength to strength.

[Tatura 121]

Thankyou Henri.

[Pegs Pride 376]

Ekraar

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Louise

I'm interested in your comments a little earlier in this thread in relation to Super Easy. While I don't have a mare in foal to him or anything, I love the horse personally and my inspection of him showed him to be beautifully conformed individual. In addition, his racetrack ability was right up there with the best - check out his Singapore Guineas win if you're unsure!! As far as I am aware, he had no soundness issues of any description during his career and I thoroughly agree that he will have particular appeal to Asian buyers, as well as many others, I suspect - so I am very curious as to why you would add a rider to your comments that "...progeny must pass the vet."

 

This surely applies to every racehorse sold anywhere - and in light of the fact that his only progeny are newborn foals [ and very impressive too, I might add!] - I find this a somewhat strange comment.? It is very easy for comments like this to be misconstrued - would you care to elaborate???

[Tatura 121]

My mare was recently served by Cape Blanco.  I couldn't believe how quiet he was coming to and in the serving barn, while my mare was waiting for him to do the deed. If this is an indication of his temperament and he passes that onto his foals they are going to be a pleasure to race

 

It's no wonder he was such a top racehorse even though well travelled. I see the top priced one at Keeland was $450,000. 

 

He's got to be good value at $14000. Here's hoping!!

[Ruby 160]

Lloyd there was no inference to be made regarding Super Easy and I apologise if I have caused anyone any offence. I have met several people who think they can make a quick buck selling to Hong Kong and was just noting that the veterinary examination for that country is very strict. Many a good horse has failed the Vet and gone on to be a champion.

I know he was and exceptional racehorse and yes many are subject to veterinary inspection - I was merely pointing out that if you are selling to Asian buyers X-Rays must be good on any horse sold to Asia.

[Breeder 609]

nek minute

 

  Have you decided who to send your mare to ? (or has she already gone to a stallion)

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Michael, if she were mine I would send her to Rock 'n' Pop without a doubt, although next year I would probably choose a proven horse like Ekraar. PM me privately if you need to know more.

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Thanks Louise - I appreciate your clarification.