Weekly pedigrees from the Past

[Swynford 121]

[Forrest 78]

Swynford, I do enjoy seeing these extended breeding patterns,although in the case of Kotare Chief,I think he was a freak from this mating.

I have had brief look at his siblings,both on the track and in the breeding barn and there does not seem to be a lot of success on either front.

Have you had an in depth look?

[Swynford 121]

 Good question Forrest. Yes he had a full brother that never raced, a brother that died and a full sister that didn't perform. I think that is the odds we are all up against. Still reads 30 % strike rate which is well above the norm. Possibly too a small a number to really analyze.

 

Four boys and two girls in my own family, All similar size, and traits etc, Five of the six sired or produced off spring. One who sadly is no longer with us was mixed gender DNA.  Genetics can do funny things.

[Forrest 78]

Just had another look,

Full sister did nothing in both spheres,he had three half sisters,all ordinary on the track and only one of them threw a winner,interestingly were all put to kotare chiefs sire exceptional for quite a few dead,unraced,or poorly performed(one winner)

Strike rate appears to be getting smaller.

[Forrest 78]

Just on strike rates,we are all using success in group and non group racing as our measurement,I would like to know the reverse statistics,that is to say,how many unraced, when we use that particular cross,it would be interesting,especially when you look at higher profile stallions.

[Berri 2,131]

Swynford...I'm afraid I don't buy it. There are a squillion pedigrees that have this type of mating structure and at least 85% of them are no good. It isn't the cross that makes the horse...its the overall pedigree and when you look at Kotare Chief's pedigree you can easily understand why he could win a 3200m handicap at Elerslie. Exbury was a champion stayer in France and the UK, and his dam sire (St Puckle) was by St Paddy who of course produced Sir Ivor who produced Sir Tristram. In his own right St Puckle produced what a Nuisance, who won the Melbourne Cup (a 3200m handicap). I have included What a Nuisance's pedigree which is also interesting but the majority of his family are ordinary. Of interest though is that this is part of the "Non Stud Book" entries into the stud book. This reference is of course to one of the other threads on this breeding site. I just thought it was interesting in the circumstances.

What a Nuisance.doc

[Swynford 121]

I have been planning brood-mare mating's recently and one from the family of champion Beau Zam, Like Kotare Chief he was by a stallion who was a son of Exbury.  I was interested when looking at that outstanding horses pedigree, firstly to see if he was the result of an out cross or was there anything from a line breeding point of view that I could put my finger on that might help me.  I think it is important to ask questions when looking at these things and one I always ask is "where are the duplications in the mare ?" and "where are they in the stallion?".  

I was reassured that I was planning these future mating's the right way. Using the male line of the mare and mating them with the brood-mare sires in the stallion, or his father etc. The structure of line breeding patterns in Beau Zam fitted these principals perfectly and like Kotare Chief a mirror image.  

[Swynford 121]

  Berri ..

 

 I congratulate you on being a part owner of a Melbourne Cup winner. It is something I think most of us dream of.

 

Can I assume the pedigree that you put forward is the horse. If someone bred this horse using line breeding methods I couldn't have done it better myself.     

 

We all look at pedigrees differently (would welcome other peoples opinions as well )

 

I will break it down a little to show you what I see. 

 

The pedigree below shows duplications of the full brothers Pharos and Fairway,

 

on the male line of the first dam Fashion Bell and as a brood-mare sire in St Puckle. 

 

To me this area is one of the hottest spots in a pedigree, 

 

below step one:

[Swynford 121]

Also on the male line of Fashion Bell is the horse Mossborough, closer inspection reveals he is from the same female family as Hyperion,

 

Duplicating two brood-mare sires in St Puckle's  female line eg, Hyperion sire of his second dam, and Fairway, sire of his third dam, either with the same horse or close relatives, to my mind from a line breeding point of view (from both experience and research ) will make the till ring in most stallions.. 

[Swynford 121]

Doesn't really need much explanation this pedigree,  Quite clearly a mirror image to me in key positions.

 

I work with pedigrees most often every day and sometimes all day and don't see this pattern very often.

 

I know you don't look at extended pedigrees so not sure where your research is coming from. 

 

There are many attributes that contribute to the make up of an out standing racehorse. Astute breeders do take line breeding into account.

[Swynford 121]

Must have been a huge thrill  !!!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNgzyQ2EvIE#t=17

[Breeder 609]

Swynford

 

 If you look at Belmura crossed with Browband then you find a large number of common lines. So I would argue that St Puckle and Fashion Bell are bred along similar lines.

 

 It would interesting to see if St Puckle covered any other Belmura mares  ( or am I mixing up Belmura with another stallion ? Did Belmura stand in NZ?)

[crustyngrizzly 1,701]

 

Swynford

 

 If you look at Belmura crossed with Browband then you find a large number of common lines. So I would argue that St Puckle and Fashion Bell are bred along similar lines.

 

 It would interesting to see if St Puckle covered any other Belmura mares  ( or am I mixing up Belmura with another stallion ? Did Belmura stand in NZ?)

 If my memory is correct St puckle and Belmura stood at stud together,so on that basis there should be more out there,but as i said i could be horribly mistaken..

[Swynford 121]

 My guess was Matamata, but someone will know for sure.  Interesting to see the cross in reverse.

[crustyngrizzly 1,701]

I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT IN SAYING MATAMATA.IT MAY HAVE BEEN BROSNANS PROPERTY

[Berri 2,131]

The trouble that I have Swynford is that most horses have some sort of duplication and you're not explaining to me why the differences are relevant. What is it that you see because I could show you 100 pedigrees that have duplications and the progeny are no good. All you have to do is look at this year's yearling sales and you'll see what I mean. As most horses have duplications, it's not difficult to look at a good horse post the success and make an excuse as to why he's good.

[Nasrullah 180]

I would have to agree with Berri here.

 

We could pull out just as many failed horses with the same cross you have highlighted.

 

Further more the 'mirror 'concept you mention is simply false from a genetic viewpoint.

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Swynford

 

 If you look at Belmura crossed with Browband then you find a large number of common lines. So I would argue that St Puckle and Fashion Bell are bred along similar lines.

 

 It would interesting to see if St Puckle covered any other Belmura mares  ( or am I mixing up Belmura with another stallion ? Did Belmura stand in NZ?)

St. Puckle had 12 foals from Belmura mares. 9 of these raced and 6 were winners. Apart from What A Nuisance, San Lefair was a capable horse winning 10 races and running 4th in Mr. Trick's Fourex Cup (Gr1) in Brisbane. Both stallions stood at Brosnan's Oaklands Stud at Matamata.

[Swynford 121]

Thanks Peter .. important information.  As always some fall by the way side, however of those that make it to the races it translates to about 22% strike rate of stakes winners to runners.  And that is just taking into account the St Puckle over Belmura mares which is just the first dam.

 

Pedigrees are way deeper than just the first dam.  If one was to eliminate the horses without a clear connection in the subsequent dams, eg ( the mirror image)  I'm sure this strike rate would be even higher. 

 

This second pattern could be something to do with the chromosomes. Males being XY and females being XX.

Perhaps Nasrullah could enlighten us all on genetics.

Would love to know more about it.

[Swynford 121]

The trouble that I have Swynford is that most horses have some sort of duplication and you're not explaining to me why the differences are relevant. What is it that you see because I could show you 100 pedigrees that have duplications and the progeny are no good. All you have to do is look at this year's yearling sales and you'll see what I mean. As most horses have duplications, it's not difficult to look at a good horse post the success and make an excuse as to why he's good.

 

 

Will try and explain it to you Berri and break it down as much as I can. There are certain places in both the stallion and the mare that are key positions.  This comes from both research and successful planned mating's. 

• Most computer systems only look at duplications. My system is different. It takes into account the bottom line of a horses pedigree, ie the female line.  To my mind this factor was a major contributor to both of these stallions success in the examples below.

 

Most people believe in duplicating a particular horse in a pedigree (say Hyperion, through a son and a daughter etc ) but I believe that if you want to breed back to Hyperion then going to a stallion that descends in direct female line to his family in is a better option. Again something to do with the chromosomes. The XX  and the XY  factors

[Swynford 121]

the other example

[Baz (NZ) 1,722]

Wasn't good stayer Oopik by St. Puckle as well?

[gubellini 4,003]

Yes Baz Oopik was by St.Puckle. He was out of Lady Venice who was by the top staying sire Le Filou.Her dam Italian Lady was by Duccio a sire of dour stayers/jumpers.

[Baz (NZ) 1,722]

Agree the pedigree is nothing flash but I've seen worse with less winners.
Note: Kotare Chief's dam was a half sister to very handy stayer KARU (3rd Melbourne Cup)