tc02 levels to be increased

[what a post 811]

Hrnz have proposed the level of tc02 permitted in horses blood prior to competition be raised from 35.0mmol to 36 mmol.This would put them in line with the galloping code and some overseas jurisdictions. Sounds fair enough you would think .They say by raising the level to 36 mmlo it would reduce the chance of  a false positive to over one in 2 million. Nice work hrnz.                                                                             Hang on .Hrnz don't currently prosecute anyone whose horses have a level under 36 mmlo anyway .Margin of error you see. So currently they are already operating on the one in 2 million false positive. If hrnz was  serious about "catching" the  milkshakers why don't they do what the experts say. Why don't they impound the horses in question and collect blood samples 2 hours after racing,Then  test them again  when levels are shown to return to normal 8 to 12 hours later.This could even help someone prove their innocence.                                                                                                                                        Does anyone read the tc02 levels on the hrnz website?  If they did then they would have seen this move coming. Given the " head in the sand" hrnz  approach to the use  of performance enhancers  they been a bit slow off the mark.                                                                                                                                                            Here is a question that needs to be answered. Have Hrnz been taking a 2nd blood sample  and having the results analysed from the horses that have returned a tc02 level over 35.0 since the beginning of the year. Why do I ask that?  Well I can think of a trainer already prosecuted last year who's  initial test of his horses  level was under 35.0. Read the riu case presented and the reasons why 2nd blood samples were taken in that case.  Those with high Tc02  levels  are actually soft targets.                                          Hrnz doesn't like negative publicity. They take  the 'ignorance is bliss' approach. They can truthfully point to the reduced number of positives and  say how good things are. Problem is they ignore why.    p.s.Regards to my namesake.Are you going to reply to this?

[Portfolio 728]

Interesting article in this mornings CHCH Press.....

 

Jamie Keast has just been suspended for 6 months for his 3rd breach of the bicarb rule

Two containers of bicarb of  soda were taken from Keasts feed room,  along with a drenching tube and bucket....but Keast denied that he put any bicarb into westburn creeds feed???

 

What a joke...this industry will be better off without this guy.

 

I like this part....

Chris Lange, for the RIU, said westburn creeds levels were between 32 and 34.1 when trained by Ivan Court, between 35.2 and 36.2 when with Keast, and between 31.3 and 32.8 when taken over by Bob Rochford....

Keasts lawyer stated that westburn creed had a throat condition which could have raised his bicarb level?? What a load of shit.

Why not come clean instead of all the bullshit.......Those readings by all of those trainers make it plain to see what was going on.

 

Thank god that harness nz go to great effort to test these horses.....

[what a post 811]

Portfolio I like these parts of your response ' westburn creeds tc02 levels being between 35.2 and 36.2 when trained by mr keast.' & 'those readings by all of those trainers make it plain to see what was going on'.   & 'what a joke,, this industry will be better off without this guy.     Really.   I will now quote to you those trainers which have had tc02 readings between the figures your stated mr keast had.       R J DUNN (35.4 &35.2)  P M HUNTER (35.8) S G LOCK ( 35.5) N R MCGRATH (35.6) M.P.JONES (36.2 & 35.6 both the same horse) P N JONES(35.4)   All these within the last 4 months.  Portfolio,if its that obvious to you what mr keast was up to then what do you make of those figures. If you want I can go back to last year and name drop some others.  One of the points I have made is those readings I have just quoted is why HRNZ has just raised the threshold level for tc02. They are getting too close to prosecuting trainers that they don't want to catch.    Yes HRNZ put great effort into testing for tc02,but NO they don't want to catch any of the big fish and that is why they have raised the threshold level. Simple.  Now ive made the above quotes im guessing some  will be saying it was a bad idea to publish these levels on the RIU website.                What about my other question.  Were 2nd blood tests taken from any of the  trainers horses whose levels I have quoted? Why? A  horses tc02 level will increase closer to racetime if it has been properly milkshaked.  Taking a 2nd blood test was how they caught others  last year..                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Trainers adjust their practices so they fall within the rules, some like Mr keast get it wrong,just. They push the boundaries knowing that if they don't ,others who do will have an advantage. Its HRNZ  job to make sure things are kept in check, When HRNZ contemplate  relaxing rules relating to performance enhancers they let everyone(including all trainers) down and often the welfare of the horse is compromised.

[Portfolio 728]

Anyone with a horse that tested over 36 should have been dealt with. Those other trainers just below are not breaking the law are they?

What makes keasts case interesting is the fact that 3 trainers have had the horse.....and no surprise....only one has elevated readings.

Stick up for the guy all you like.....but these sort of people are not needed in the game.  Why was Jones not done as well if that level was as you said? Same old names keep coming up with these high readings..

[what a post 811]

Im not defending mr keast.   The other  case that was mr jones of 36.2 has been charged. Jones has been quoted"i told them I was prepared to pay for them to take the horse for a week then transport I down to Dunedin,test it before it leaves,then again on arrival to see if its bicarb rises.They told me that even if the level went over 36 it would be no  defence                                                                          My opinion is that tc02 levels tested for  should not change. What they should have done is change the whey they are dealt with.   What  HRNZ should be doing, after consulting with trainers reps,is bring in a system of automatic fines with the cases to be dealt with on the next raceday after confirmation of tc02 level..The amount of fines( and suspensions for repeat offenders) should have a sliding scale depending on levels recorded and frequency of offences. They would be dealt with quicker without the need for all the media  coverage and trainers would not need to pay lawyers. Trainers should still have the right to defend themselves but penalties would still remain as per  a published schedule.  Why should trainers have cases like this hanging over their heads for months? But  keep tc02 levels as they are.

[lonestar 80]

Whilst I agree that milkshaking is cheating , I think in the current cases you have to look beyond the obvious attempt to cheat. In the cases brought forward Keasts Westburn Creed and Jones Remiss ,the horses concerned did not figure in a stake bearing place in the races they were tested so you would have to ask yourself whats the point of supposedly cheating if the horse doesn't respond?

 

The vets themselves agree that TC02 levels is not an exact science so there should be a level in wish trainers are charged and a sliding scale of offences starting with bigger penalties if the horse earns a dividend and there are subsequent repeat higher levels. At the moment it is a strict liability offence for which makes it near impossible to defend yourself against. as Jones points out its an easy win for RIU without having to prove that there was any intentional application of bicarb. Whilst a lot of people will say "so what" the proposed new penalties are extreme when the trainer really doesn't have a lot of defence to what is sometimes a natural occurring  phenomenom in horses.

[hedley 1,900]

" Whilst a lot of people will say "so what" the proposed new penalties are extreme when the trainer really doesn't have a lot of defence to what is sometimes a natural occurring  phenomenom in horses."

 

post and point taken, but i'd just like to say..that the extent that it Is a naturally occuring phenomenon In horses..is 'the muddy waters' that throws up doubt, and for those who Are cheating, they feel more comfortable And untouchable..'among those mists and murks'

[Portfolio 728]

" Whilst a lot of people will say "so what" the proposed new penalties are extreme when the trainer really doesn't have a lot of defence to what is sometimes a natural occurring  phenomenom in horses."

 

post and point taken, but i'd just like to say..that the extent that it Is a naturally occuring phenomenon In horses..is 'the muddy waters' that throws up doubt, and for those who Are cheating, they feel more comfortable And untouchable..'among those mists and murks'

 

My main point is that the horse in question had 3 trainers.....only one had a problem with testing levels....

So I think we can say that it might not be a natural occurring phenomenom.....

 

[freespeech 2]

Portfolio,

 

You obviously have a gripe with certain members of the NZ harness racing scene.

All I can say to you is get the chip off your shoulder and move on. Quickly. Far bigger fish to fry. You should start at the top.....

Idiot.

[Portfolio 728]

Portfolio,

 

You obviously have a gripe with certain members of the NZ harness racing scene.

All I can say to you is get the chip off your shoulder and move on. Quickly. Far bigger fish to fry. You should start at the top.....

Idiot.

 

Not sure what you are upset with....even more so with a name like FREESPEECH?

 

It was all in the paper....all facts...I do not have a gripe with any trainer.....

 

But come on.....look at the same trainers that have these sort of problems time and time again.

No need to start at the top dude....they are trying to keep the industry clean.

 

Maybe you are the Idiot if you think there is nothing wrong with this constant crap.

 

[JTK 11]

Portfolio

 

For a start since when have all thinks in the press been fact! 

 

1. it is not our third TC02 charge it is our second FACT

 

2. Westburn Creed actually tested 31.9 for us 4/7/13 FACT and that was probably his best run for us! But unfortunately as we found in our first case the RIU only produce the evidence that best suits there case! 

 

Yes you are right they did fined Baking Soda at our stables as they would find it at most trotting stables!

And on our first charge they found the same containers and also the bag that it was purchased in with the 

label on it and they thought they had struck the jackpot! They went to the feed store and investigated all our 

invoices and took photos of these invoices. And they discovered we had not purchased it within the the last 

4 months and if we had have milkshaked a horse with the quantity that was in that original bag there would 

have only done maybe 4 horses and there was still at least half of that left in containers and still some in the bag!

But once again since that bit of information didn't suit the RIU case they lost that photos of those invoices!

 

The person we were dealing with believes that any trainer whose horse is testing over 34 is up to something!

Well I say looking at the lists that have now been put up by the RIU there must be a lot of trainers up to 

something BULLSHIT. Any vet will tell you it is not an exact Science. And I will give you a prime example,

we had a horse tested in blenhiem where they were using the Istat machine her first test at 1.07pm 37, second

test at 1.32pm  36, and a third test at 4pm approx 2 hrs after she raced 33. And the lab tests came back in order 

at 34.10 , 32.80 and 28.60. Where is the exact science there? And for the record in the USA they use the after 

race test to prosecute as if they have been given an alkalising agent it always continues to rise! This was the only

time we were ever offered this test! 

 

There are many factors that can affect a horses TC02 level Respiratory complaints, Dehydration, Nervousness,

Feed just to name a few!  

[Portfolio 728]

JTK,

Good on you for fronting.

 

You state Westburn Creed tested 31.9 on the 4/7/13, and that it went very well for the stable. What dates were the other elevated samples taken?

 

Also if a horse is testing high, why continue to use soda?

 

I am not involved really in any stable, know a few in the game, but not really connected to a stable.

But it really amazes me that the same people seem to end up with these type of problems? Then you have the majority of trainers that never have any problems at all?

I

As a punter I would love to know that each horse has a chance in a race......

[freespeech 2]

Portfolio,

 

You seem to have a short memory as well as having a chip on your shoulder! The current leading trainer in the country was part of some of the most crooked doping ever seen in this country, but you 5 or 6 clowns that have nothing better to do than post drivel on this site seem to sweep that under the carpet and give hell to the wee guys. And when certain names pop up from time to time you all jump from trees looking to crucify anyone that suits you! Go have a look what P. Cook has written on harnesslink bout this subject. I don't like the guy. Never have but he speaks some sense, something you lot lack badly. Seriously you 5 or 6 IDIOTS that seem to be the only constants on here need to wake up and smell the coffee!

And to say your not connected to any particular stable PORTFOLIO would be ludicrous to say the least!!

[JTK 11]

Portfolio

 

He tested 35.8  on the 21/7/13

                 35.2 on the 28/7/13

 

We were well aware of these levels so we would need rocks in our heads to do anything that could effect his TC02 level

 

Why use Baking Soda?

 

Well why would you not use a ingredient in a saline 2-3 days before a race that will only cost a few cents compared to and injection

that would cost $30-$40. Using it in that way is common practice and even a lot of the pre made Salines you can buy from a vet 

have it in there! Some trainers put small amounts in the feed! And I have worked for more than one trainer over the years that would 

use it in a saline the day before!

 

For you to say the same people are always having the same problem is very narrow minded and show poor judgement and no intelligence! Just like someone else's statement, that now we as trainers can see the levels we try to push the boundries (what a 

load of crap) You idiots might want to take your head out of the sand, take you hands of it get up early and go out and do the hard

yards and see what actually goes on in some of these stables! 

 

I have seen names appear  high on the list that I know for a fact that are pure oats and chaff trainers, Meaning no supplements, no saline etc 

 

After our first high we heard rumours that we were tubing on race day, I rang the head RIU man and invited them to put a guard on us

and he declined saying that it wasn't there job to do that and it was our job to make sure we got our horses drug free!

[hsvman 295]

Didn't mark purdon admit to using blue magic even tho there wasn't a positive from his runners? Maybe be wrong?.

[what a post 811]

The  timing of my posting on this subject may have been a bit unfortunate. I was aware   JTK had a case pending but at the time of my original post there was nothing on the RIU website to say it had been dealt with.   I have only referred to specific figures and names as a result of a response, All figures can be seen on the RIU website anyway.     Having said that,I believe this is a subject that can be debated and make no excuses for raising it. Its always good to hear both sides  of the argument  and  good on JTK   for  expressing his point of view although  its unfortunate that  personalities  were brought into the discussion for this to happen. From my experience  JTK is a  gifted trainer  and will bounce back when ready  .                                                                                                                        It seems however that  some are overlooking the science and countless studies relating to tc02 levels in horses.  According to science the threshold  level HRNZ currently  enforce can not be obtained naturally.  That's why they have such a rule. Point to the science that says otherwise and  then we may become believers. Its  just  not there.    I do agree with those who argue the contrary that there should be some way of  proving a certain horse may be the exception to the rule.  That  is why  in my first post I suggested  they follow science and impound the horse and test them  8 to 12 hours after the event, when levels are shown to return to normal. I believe the  processes HRNZ  have in place once a high level has been recorded need fine tuned and processed quicker. There seems too much stress involved for those concerned.                 My statement that trainers try to push the boundaries is correct in my opinion. History shows that. Just my opinion.   

[JTK 11]

What A Post

 

I would ask you how HRNZ could think they are more clever than the rest of the world and also the NZTR by setting 

there level 1 point lower than the rest of them? They told us on more than one occasion that they came up with there 

level from statistics from the begins of TCO2 testing yet back in 2001 there were 3 trainers let off when they discovered 

there was a flaw in there testing! So how can they use the statistics from before them! From what I have seen from the 

levels of horses on those lists it has to suggest that there level is set to low. As I said in my last post I know there are

trainers that give there horses nothing who have been right on the boarder and these horses have not been tested with 

the Istat, which means they were not second tested. And they could well have gone up or they could also have gone 

down. Both of our test have been below on the first test but have been over on the second test. We have also had others

tested that have gone the other way like the example I gave in an earlier post! So where have HRNZ got there statistics 

second testing horses after they have been fully geared up and usually standing in the sulky ready to go on the track?

Even the calmest horses change there temperament once geared up to go on the track!

 

And yip impound them that is what Mark jones wanted to do!!!!

 

Our first high one was 35.1 resting in the paddock when tested on an unannounced visit from the RIU and although that

is not over the limit it is far higher than what HRNZ will let you believe is normal and that was just one test whose to say 

it wouldn't go up if we had put her on a float and travelled a distance a racecourse

[what a post 811]

JTK         You argue a  strong case. What you highlight is  that there needs to be some way of establishing a horses natural level in the environment it is in which can become a mitigating factor when these cases are dealt with. It  seems common sense to take this factor into account when deciding guilt or not. However that may  be a little unsafe. Since the tc02 tests were published we had 3 horses pre race tested 2 days apart. Not sure why they would want to do this but the level of all 3 went up by between 3.0 to 4.5mmlo  within 2 days..I guessed it had something to do with the long trip down . Science is against you at the moment but science is always evolving. From my dealings with you I have no reason to doubt what you say.  Only a thought but what you may need to do is channel your energy into working with the trainers association and HRNZ to come up with some sort of protocol in  having the horses natural tc02 levels determined in certain situations before cases went ahead. Turn the negative energy into positive energy.

[what a post 811]

What I raised in my first two posts is  why the change in policy regarding a second test. Why do it last year  and proceed with those cases and proceed to charge the people concerned then not apply the same standards this year. That  is a double standard and I gave my thoughts on why that may be.

[Portfolio 728]

What A Post

 

I would ask you how HRNZ could think they are more clever than the rest of the world and also the NZTR by setting 

there level 1 point lower than the rest of them? They told us on more than one occasion that they came up with there 

level from statistics from the begins of TCO2 testing yet back in 2001 there were 3 trainers let off when they discovered 

there was a flaw in there testing! So how can they use the statistics from before them! From what I have seen from the 

levels of horses on those lists it has to suggest that there level is set to low. As I said in my last post I know there are

trainers that give there horses nothing who have been right on the boarder and these horses have not been tested with 

the Istat, which means they were not second tested. And they could well have gone up or they could also have gone 

down. Both of our test have been below on the first test but have been over on the second test. We have also had others

tested that have gone the other way like the example I gave in an earlier post! So where have HRNZ got there statistics 

second testing horses after they have been fully geared up and usually standing in the sulky ready to go on the track?

Even the calmest horses change there temperament once geared up to go on the track!

 

And yip impound them that is what Mark jones wanted to do!!!!

 

Our first high one was 35.1 resting in the paddock when tested on an unannounced visit from the RIU and although that

is not over the limit it is far higher than what HRNZ will let you believe is normal and that was just one test whose to say 

it wouldn't go up if we had put her on a float and travelled a distance a racecourse

 

I am not sure many will believe this part....I know there are trainers that give their horses nothing who have been right on the border??.....How do we know this, nobody will ever own up , even when they do get caught.

 Fair enough you making a point, and lets face it , we have all seen this on many occasions, always trying to explain a situation. But answer this......If the levels are high, why have we not seen trainers by the dozen caught out each week??? Surely you can not say it is a select few that are unfortunate to get caught...and caught again....and so on? Look at some trainers, been in the game 30 odd years, never been involved in anything like this. What do you say to those guys????

 

I think HRNZ should target those that have high readings, have track records, and give them all special attention. Lets clean up this sport once and for all. It will never matter what levels are set, there will be those that try to gain an edge....at the expense of all the battling trainers out there that never cross the line.

 

All the best for the future JTK, hope it all works out for you.....

[what a post 811]

In New Jersey, USA  they  have regulations which  provide that if a tc02 reading in excess of authorized  levels is obtained the owner or trainer may within 3 days of the notification of test results, submit a written request that the horse be held in guarded quarantine for a period of up to 72 hours, during which the horse may be periodically retested. If the judges are satisfied that the elevated tc02 levels are physiologically normal for the horse then no penalties are imposed.  Perhaps they should do the same here.  

[Portfolio 728]

In New Jersey, USA  they  have regulations which  provide that if a tc02 reading in excess of authorized  levels is obtained the owner or trainer may within 3 days of the notification of test results, submit a written request that the horse be held in guarded quarantine for a period of up to 72 hours, during which the horse may be periodically retested. If the judges are satisfied that the elevated tc02 levels are physiologically normal for the horse then no penalties are imposed.  Perhaps they should do the same here.  

 

What a post.....

 

I do not think we have a problem with the levels set.....

We have a problem with those that want to get close to that level...but not over.

 

This shit has been going on for years......will always go on.

 

[what a post 811]

Thats why I have expressed my opinion that levels  should remain at 35.0mml and not be increased. There should however be some way trainers can prove they have been falsely accused.  Look at the latest policy in NSW relating to tc02 levels over 35.0 effective from September 2014. They are  one of the leaders in  the world in pro active performance enhancer detection.  NZ is not nor does it want to be. Tc02 levels are the easy targets, hrnz  are behind the 8 ball in other areas as well.  Ive laboured the point long enough now and  will go back into my shell.

[hedley 1,900]

Controversial bicarbonate rule change scrapped BARRY LICHTER  http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/10375251/Controversial-bicarbonate-rule-change-scrapped

[Portfolio 728]

Controversial bicarbonate rule change scrapped BARRY LICHTER  http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/10375251/Controversial-bicarbonate-rule-change-scrapped

 

Interesting reading.....

Looks like they will get on top of the cheats in Aus.....

Hope they do the same here in NZ.....