Volksraad as a broodmare sire

[trakdap 390]

Interested to hear cafers views.

[Ye Zhi Hao 0]

Beauty Flash!!

Of course the Zabeel cross with Star Satire and how did Dantelah's son develop in South Africa.

[trakdap 390]

Am thinking of buying another volksraad mare, just wanting to know what others think about the commercial value of their progeny.

[justathought 0]

Am thinking of buying another volksraad mare, just wanting to know what others think about the commercial value of their progeny.

He's been about for a few years now and has done an ok job with a dozen or so Stakes Winners.

While compared to his NZ exploits he hasn't hit the same heights overseas in our key markets in Aus and Asia, there are many many stallions behind him. It really depends on the race record and catalogue page of the mare in question. The Dam sire is just one of many factors and I would not let it discourage you if everything else fits your criteria.

[John Duncan 2]

I started an identical thread about 12 months ago for I wasn't convinced his broodmare record was going to be anywhere near as successful as his stallion. Typically no sooner had I posted than his daughters starting leaving winners everywhere including the WATC Derby if my memory is correct.

One well made point by cafers was that in his early career he didn't get the pick of Windsors band and despite producing quality fillies in his first few crops -Zola and One Under spring to mind - some of them lacked depth to their pedigrees which hindered their ability to breed on.

I looked at the record of Green Desert as a broodmare stallion and didn't consider it quite did him justice although with Volksraad you inherit Secretariat who I regard as hugely influential in a pedigree today and prevalent in the bloodlines of a number of successful broodmare stallions.

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

I have compiled a list below of Boodmares Sires both contemporary and historic. The criteria is SW/runners (Southern hemisphere only). Volksraad is holding his own and is in fact level with the most talked about "young" broodmare sire in Australia at present - Flying Spur (who already has 3 Gr1 winners to his credit). Of the top 7 - every sire above Danehill - only hot young tyro O'Reilly is a Northern Dancer-line stallion which is food for thought.

Volksraad currently outranks some stallions who are widely considered good broodmare sires such as Straight Strike, Grosvenor, Star Way and Rory's Jester. Encosta de Lago, who went to stud the same year as Volksraad and would have enjoyed a better early opportunity lags behind Volksraad badly.

It should be remembered that any SW/runners table inevitably favours older sires who have a higher percentage of runners having completed their racing careers. In other words there are probably a number of Volksraads included in the runners figure who will ultimately be SWs.

8.9 O'Reilly

7.7 Red Ransom

6.9 Last Tycoon

6.4 Centaine

6.3 Zabeel

6.2 Kaapstad

6.1 Sir Tristram

5.6 Danehill

5.4 Snippets

5.0 Marscay

4.9 Dehere

4.7 Zamazaan

4.6 Sound Reason

4.5 Royal Academy

4.5 Noble Bijou

4.4 Crested Wave

4.3 Flying Spur

4.3 Volksraad

4.3 Vice Regal

4.3 Clay Hero

4.0 Pompeii Court

4.0 Rory's Jester

3.8 Straight Strike

3.4 Grosvenor

3.2 Star Way

2.9 Lord Ballina

2.7 Encosta de Lago

2.4 Deputy Governor

Disclaimer: I own one of the stakes-producing Volksraad mares and am happy with the stallions damsire performance to date. The affinity between Green Desert and Danehill should see Volksraad's stats continue to improve over the next few mares.

[Zither 0]

Please tell me that Pentire doesn't feature because he doesn't have a large enough representation yet...?

What are thoughts on him as a broodmare sire to date? (I have a His Royal Highness filly out of a Pentire mare -taking a while to mature)

[Hawkes Bay Boys 0]

Thano looks to be one of the better Tesio Sire matings for volksraad mares.

[trakdap 390]

Thanks Peter,

Gives me a bit more confidence in my investments.

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Please tell me that Pentire doesn't feature because he doesn't have a large enough representation yet...?

What are thoughts on him as a broodmare sire to date? (I have a His Royal Highness filly out of a Pentire mare -taking a while to mature)

Brendan, the list is simply made up of stallions I selected myself. Pentire is 3.6% and slots between Straight Strike and Grosvenor.

I think Pentire's record will improve and his daughters will probably mate best being bred to stallions carrying the blood of his own damline - Storm Cat, Royal Academy, etc. Sadler's Wells-line mares also suit due to the Lalun double-up. Hence his best two as a broodmare sire are the Group 3 winner Cassandra Shadow (by Johannesburg) and the Group 1 winner Shoot Out (by High Chaparral). Look for Ishka Baha (by another Storm Cat-line sire from a Pentire mare) to build into a stakes horse next season.

Stallions carryling Shirley Heights, a 3/4 brother to pentire's dam will obviously cross well (e.g. High Chaparral, and surprise surprise Sir Percy) also.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Looking at the data which I have available for broodmare sires Volksraad has bred 12 Stakes winners. Defensive Play by comparison who was born in 1989 and had an abbreviated career in the Southern Hemisphere has bred 13 Southern Hemisphere stakes winners ! In similar vein Prized (1986) has bred 6 Southern Hemisphere stakes winners whilst Paris House (1989) has bred 7. Success Express (1985) has bred 17 stakes winners of which no less than 6 are GR1 winners. Generous (1988) has bred at least 28 stakes winners world wide of which only 2 are Southern Hemisphere born. Zabeel

[Henri Jooste 40]

Peter could you elaborate on your observation

The affinity between Green Desert and Danehill should see Volksraad's stats continue to improve over the next few mares.

Apart from an affinity between Cape Cross (by Green Desert)and Danehill I am unaware of any other success involving either Green Desert himself or his sire sons with daughters of Danehill. Am I missing something ?

A generation on and the reverse cross involving sons of Danehill over mares by sons of Green Desert looks more promising. Three of five stakes winners bred this way are out of daughters of Desert Sun ie Rockdale, La Rocket, and Sista. The other two are Alfred Nobel and Dino Mak. The latter is by Fastnet Rock out of a Volksraad mare.

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Henri, I have 18 SW that I can locate that have Danehill in one parent and Green Desert in another. Only 1 of the 5 Gr1 winners has Cape Cross as the Green Desert line. 3 of the 18 SW have Cape Cross as the Green Desert line.

Just one example of a specific sire utilising the cross I am referring to is Rock of Gibraltar.

Rock of Gibraltar:

Overall SW/named foals - 6%

SW/named foal with mares by Green Desert or his sons - 20% (none involve Cape Cross)

Danehill Dancer has 37.5% stakes horses to named foals with mares by Green Desert or his sons while his overall average is 11.4%.

zzz Tsatsaronis' Gold Mine program shows a VGS score of 1.83 for the Danehill-Green Desert cross (in that order). For the uninitiated this score predicts the number of SW a certain cross is likely to produce given the overall stakeswinner production of the individuals involved. The cross is expected to yield 7.63 SW but has yielded 14.

BTW the reverse cross Green Desert in the sire and Danehill in the mare actually under achieves at a 0.87 VGS score.

So I was referring to Volksraad improving his broodmare stats with Danehill-line sires and not the other way around.

On your other point Defensive Play, Prized, Paris House, Success Express, Gold Brose, etc were not omitted for any reason other than oversight. It wasn't mean't to be a "Best Of" list just some other well known sires to compare Volksraad with. Here are the same stats for the sires you have mentioned.

11.5 Prized

8.2 Defensive Play

7.8 Paris House

4.2 Gold Brose

3.2 Success Express

I'm not sure how old Generous fits in.:confused:

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Henri, I have 18 SW that I can locate that have Danehill in one parent and Green Desert in another. Only 1 of the 5 Gr1 winners has Cape Cross as the Green Desert line. 3 of the 18 SW have Cape Cross as the Green Desert line.

Just one example of a specific sire utilising the cross I am referring to is Rock of Gibraltar.

Rock of Gibraltar:

Overall SW/named foals - 6%

SW/named foal with mares by Green Desert or his sons - 20% (none involve Cape Cross)

Danehill Dancer has 37.5% stakes horses to named foals with mares by Green Desert or his sons while his overall average is 11.4%.

zzz Tsatsaronis' Gold Mine program shows a VGS score of 1.83 for the Danehill-Green Desert cross (in that order). For the uninitiated this score predicts the number of SW a certain cross is likely to produce given the overall stakeswinner production of the individuals involved. The cross is expected to yield 7.63 SW but has yielded 14.

BTW the reverse cross Green Desert in the sire and Danehill in the mare actually under achieves at a 0.87 VGS score.

So I was referring to Volksraad improving his broodmare stats with Danehill-line sires and not the other way around.

On your other point Defensive Play, Prized, Paris House, Success Express, Gold Brose, etc were not omitted for any reason other than oversight. It wasn't mean't to be a "Best Of" list just some other well known sires to compare Volksraad with. Here are the same stats for the sires you have mentioned.

11.5 Prized

8.2 Defensive Play

7.8 Paris House

4.2 Gold Brose

3.2 Success Express

I'm not sure how old Generous fits in.:confused:

So interested to see the figure for Prized. [being President and Chairman of the Fan Club!!] I think he will be real good broodmare sire and from limited numbers has produced some top horses already.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Interesting topic this has developed into.....

What may appear to be an affinity may not stand up to scrutiny, sometimes there may only be a specific affinity between a sire and another sires daughters but not necessarily members of the later

[Gail Hughes 0]

Hi Lloyd, Very pleased that Prized mares have been in the news lately - took the gamble and bought the sister to Prized Touch. It's great to have another branch of our "sparse" family on the go and look forward to visitng Raise the Flag this season. The fan club may have more members than you think!

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Interesting topic this has developed into.....

Daughters of Green Desert himself have not had the success that one may have expected with sires by the Danehill tribe. Danehill Dancer has bred 8 foals out of Green Desert mares for 3 winners none of whom have won a stakes race. In the case of Rock of Gibraltar 7 foals have resulted for 3 winners and one stakes winner Roxan -a minor stakes winner in England. It would appear that Roxan is the only stakes winner bred out of Green Desert mares to either Danehill or his sons.

Henri it's been a busy day here so I will have to address your other queries tomorrow.

Regarding the above statement. I have Green Desert mares on a 5% SW/runners rate but when mated with sons of Danehill have achieved 6%. Not much improvement but not underperforming at least.

BTW Anna's Rock is the other SW by Rock of Gibraltar out of a Green desert mare. This is in addition to Roxan. 7 runners for 2 SW isn't bad for R of G !

[Henri Jooste 40]

BTW Anna's Rock is the other SW by Rock of Gibraltar out of a Green desert mare. This is in addition to Roxan. 7 runners for 2 SW isn't bad for R of G !

Peter you had me scrambling there for a moment. My sources of information clearly show that Anna's Rock is out of a mare by Atticus a son of Nureyev. Not a smidgeon of Green Desert in sight ! Roxan therefore remains the solitary stakes winner amongst the whole Danehill line-up of sires that have been bred to daughters of Green Desert !

Peter it is not my intention that this thread to becomes one of one-upmanship. I have just trotted out the outcome of my research as I have looked closer into the Danehill/Green Desert relationships.

Everyone who is interested in bloodlines can benefit from our observations and hopefull a number of good horses may eventuate.

On the subject of Rock of Gibraltar it would appear that he can produce good horses from mares with multiple strains of Northern Dancer in addition to the 3x3 which he carries. A good example is his smart stakes winning filly Sweeter Still who carries Northern Dancer in all four quadrants of her pedigree, interestingly she hails from the family that produced Volksraad.

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Hi Lloyd, Very pleased that Prized mares have been in the news lately - took the gamble and bought the sister to Prized Touch. It's great to have another branch of our "sparse" family on the go and look forward to visitng Raise the Flag this season. The fan club may have more members than you think!

Glad to hear of others who share my interest in him Gail! Prized was such a fantastic looking type, and a top notch galloper [one of very few who ever beat Easy Goer] and being from the Roberto, Kris S line I'm sure he'll kick a lot of goals as a broodmare sire.

I don't know what has happened to Prized Touch - he looked a top horse in the making last year - I wish you well with your mare. Who knows - if she leaves a champ YOU might be President!

[Peter Jenkins 2,120]

Peter you had me scrambling there for a moment. My sources of information clearly show that Anna's Rock is out of a mare by Atticus a son of Nureyev. Not a smidgeon of Green Desert in sight ! Roxan therefore remains the solitary stakes winner amongst the whole Danehill line-up of sires that have been bred to daughters of Green Desert !

Peter it is not my intention that this thread to becomes one of one-upmanship. I have just trotted out the outcome of my research as I have looked closer into the Danehill/Green Desert relationships.

Everyone who is interested in bloodlines can benefit from our observations and hopefull a number of good horses may eventuate.

On the subject of Rock of Gibraltar it would appear that he can produce good horses from mares with multiple strains of Northern Dancer in addition to the 3x3 which he carries. A good example is his smart stakes winning filly Sweeter Still who carries Northern Dancer in all four quadrants of her pedigree, interestingly she hails from the family that produced Volksraad.

http://www.stallions.com.au/stallions/stud_record.php?stallionname=Rock_of_Gibraltar

Henri, I sourced Anna's Rock through Bloodhound whose sister publication stallions.com have Anna's Rock's dam as being by Green Desert (check it for yourself she's No. 44 on the above link). If I'm wrong it's because they are ! It's a worry that one or the other set of information is incorrect.

I also note that Rock of Gibraltar has left the Listed stakeswinner English Colony (3 stakes wins) from a mare by Owington and also Australian Gr2 winner La Rocket from a daughter of Desert Sun who like Owington is a son of Green Desert.

I noticed you have focussed just on mares by Green Desert and not included mares by sons of Green Desert. I think once these are included (a generation further away so to speak with regard to the Danzig double-up) there is still a case for a positive affinity between Danehill-line sires and mares carrying Green Desert. Either way time will clarify things. :y:

[Henri Jooste 40]

Peter it is a concern when data providers get information incorrect. They all do from time to time so if possible one should double check. Some of us that have been around a while can spot the discrepancies straight away in pedigree profiles but by and large breeders would accept what is produced.

In the the case of Anna's Rock her dam Anna Karenina is recorded as being by Atticus(Nureyev) by Weatherbys the official keepers of the English Stud Book, Equinline.com, The Jockey Club Information Systems (TJCIS), Arion and for good measure Thoroughbredinternet.com. (the later is not the most reliable source at times).

Peter I have not been selective and focused on Green Desert exclusively. I qualified my observation thus

[trakdap 390]

This is developing into a very interesting thread.

As I am only a novice on the breeding side of things, I can confirm my Volksraad mare has produced very nice foals, type wise, she is a tidy mare herself with a wonderful temerament.

She is currently in foal to a Danehill line sire and is booked into a son of Danehill this season.

So will let you know, type wise, what these foals are like in the future, as I think this is an important component as are soundness issues. Also colts/fillies. Selling/commercially or to race yourself. Feeding/educating. There are a lot of variables to be taken into account .

[Overdale 0]

This is developing into a very interesting thread.

As I am only a novice on the breeding side of things, I can confirm my Volksraad mare has produced very nice foals, type wise, she is a tidy mare herself with a wonderful temerament.

She is currently in foal to a Danehill line sire and is booked into a son of Danehill this season.

So will let you know, type wise, what these foals are like in the future, as I think this is an important component as are soundness issues. Also colts/fillies. Selling/commercially or to race yourself. Feeding/educating. There are a lot of variables to be taken into account .

Trakdap, as a matter of interest is oneof the Danehill line sires Keeper?I had thought earlier that he might be a starter for your mare?

[trakdap 390]

Trakdap, as a matter of interest is oneof the Danehill line sires Keeper?I had thought earlier that he might be a starter for your mare?

Yes, Why did you think that?

[trakdap 390]

Yes, Why did you think that?

Would be interested in your opinion regarding Keeper/Volksraad cross.