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trakdap

Volksraad as a broodmare sire

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Peter it is a concern when data providers get information incorrect. They all do from time to time so if possible one should double check. Some of us that have been around a while can spot the discrepancies straight away in pedigree profiles but by and large breeders would accept what is produced.

Henri I think this comment was very unfair. How would I possibly have known "straight away" that the data supplied by Bloodhound was incorrect ? There are two mares with the same name born just a couple of years apart and residing in the same country. I haven't memorized the General Stud Book nor am I likely too.

You may have time to recheck every piece of data you analyse. I certainly don't. In which case I guess having unknowingly supplied an incorrect stat my credibility is nil so I will retire from this debate and defer to you that there is NO affinity between Danehill-line stallions and mares carrying Green Desert, which you seem determined to argue. Good luck.

When I have "Been around a while" I will be back.

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Peter,

I agree with you in respect to Danehill/Green Desert cross.

I chose Keeper for my Volksraad mare because of the Secreteriat/Something Royal/Princequillo double up.

Also he leaves good fillies as well as colts ,to me this is a plus as I am selling Colts and retaining a filly to race and breed on.

As I said I am only a novice on the breeding side of things, so any positives are always welcome.

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Peter,

I agree with you in respect to Danehill/Green Desert cross.

I chose Keeper for my Volksraad mare because of the Secreteriat/Something Royal/Princequillo double up.

Also he leaves good fillies as well as colts ,to me this is a plus as I am selling Colts and retaining a filly to race and breed on.

As I said I am only a novice on the breeding side of things, so any positives are always welcome.

Trakdap you've answered the question you asked me...and a similar cross has worked very well for me. Keeper is a stand-out stallion in my view,one of the best priced in the country.

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Trakdap you've answered the question you asked me...and a similar cross has worked very well for me. Keeper is a stand-out stallion in my view,one of the best priced in the country.

I was not sure if what I was doing was correct as this breeding game is new to me. I know what I want to achieve, it is just how to go about it.

I agree about Keeper as he is a proven sire and price wise compared to unproven sires, (no matter what their track record is) seems to be very good value.

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Phew Peter !!

My apologies - in no way did I mean to imply that you should have been aware of the error. When I made the statement

"Some of us that have been around a while can spot the discrepancies straight away in pedigree profiles but by and large breeders would accept what is produced" I was in fact paying you a compliment. (Some of us meant you and I and others that have been looking at pedigrees for years )I am sure that you have come accross pedigrees generated by data providers where two horses with the same name have been mixed up or a horse is given a completely wrong pedigree. I am certain that you have seen this and been aware of the mistake straight away.

The last thing I wanted to do was tick you off. What this forum desperately needs is robust debate and you are able to provide that. This thread did developed into a robust debate and we all would have got something out of it. I certainly have gained a better insight into the Danehill / Green Desert cross that will prove valuable in planning matings. I now also have a better insight into Volksraad as a broodmare sire due to the research that I have undertaken in this discussion with you Peter.

Under the circumstances I too will now withdraw from this discussion.

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Please continue Peter and Henri. Have just got back from Arizona. Please note that the thoroughbredinternet.com website (for those that use it as it was mentioned here) always diverts to an earlier horse by the same name. It is not a reliable source for pedigrees overall. If there are two horses with the same name bred in 1982 and 1930 for example, then the shown horse is the 1930 one. Anyway, I learn heaps from your discussion as do many others I suspect. Just my thoughts

Rich

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Hi, any comments appreciated!

The mare is We'll' See 

https://loveracing.nz/Breeding/261121/Well-See-NZ-2007.aspx#bm-pedigree/%23bm-breeding

her full brother Sizzle earned black type

https://loveracing.nz/Breeding/237094/Sizzle-NZ-2003.aspx#bm-pedigree/%23bm-breeding

 

Which current Sire based in the South Island would make sense?

The mare is currently living a health happy life near ch-ch.

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See Peter Jenkins pedigree comments below from a few years back. MF a superior racer with strong pedigree. Service fee very reasonable.

Rock of Gibraltar:

Overall SW/named foals - 6%

SW/named foal with mares by Green Desert or his sons - 20% (none involve Cape Cross)

Danehill Dancer has 37.5% stakes horses to named foals with mares by Green Desert or his sons while his overall average is 11.4%.

Gold Mine program shows a VGS score of 1.83 for the Danehill-Green Desert cross (in that order). For the uninitiated this score predicts the number of SW a certain cross is likely to produce given the overall stakeswinner production of the individuals involved. The cross is expected to yield 7.63 SW but has yielded 14.

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I have a problem with Volksraad. He was only rated 111 as a racehorse (3rd in the Challange G3) and his best as a sire is probably Palette Natural (118). The real problem is that these ratings aren't high enough to be extremely competitive on the international market. It is about time we looked higher.

 

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I always thought his best was Dantelah, but thats just a matter of opinion.

Timeform to me is just another way of giving a stallion more opportunity than others, he appeared to do it the hard way and did a very good job at that.

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Berri with your knowledge of English racing I am staggered by your comments.

Volksraad was purchased by Pat Connell who had close connections to the Henry Cecil stables. They knew full well how much ability he had but due to injury he wasn’t able to show this on the track. No doubt lightly raced horses like this are always a risk but Pat was prepared to take the gamble. He is one of only 2 or 3 stallions in the past 40 years who genuinely started at the bottom and became Champion sires.

i have heard suggestions that his partners in the horse weren’t that impressed but clearly changed their  minds later :rcf-laughing-1:

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Porky telling by those who promoted the horse. I spent quite a bit of time with Henry before he died as we were working on a number of horses in his stables during the Frankel days so naturally I had to ask his opinion of Volksraad.  He was very limited and had issues with soundness and attitude. Henry advised the owners to stop racing him after the Challenge Stakes because he thought that was it for the horse. The horse was transferred to John Hammond in France to have another crack but John couldn't get him going.

On pure form, the Challenge was a very bad race in 1991. Not one horse in the race ever won another race post that event. The winner, for example, didn't get within 10 lengths of the winners of his following final four races and the second only beat one home in her final race. The horses behind Volksraad that day were so so.

For NZ he was a very good stallion but then our standard of racing has dropped for many years. Apart from Dantelah (who wasn't rated as highly as Palette Natural) was his best in Australia. She was smart winning the Railway in NZ before rolling Paint in the Oakleigh Plate (Towkay finished 4 behind her). Her international form was franked two starts later when she finished 4th 2 3/4 behind Fairy King Prawn in the Hong Kong Sprint. He'll be best remembered for nearly nailing Sunline in the HK mile a year later.

Volksraad did though produce Sir Slick.

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Interesting comments Berri which clearly must be taken at face value.

Obviously one of the vagaries of horse breeding that a horse with such limited ability plus soundness and temperament issues could prove to be such a successful stallion. Thankfully he didn’t seem to pass his unsatisfactory traits to most of his stock.

Stallion selection is clearly a lottery.

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I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Nothing is on face value. It's a sequence of data that can be interpreted one way. My discussion centres around internationally accepted ratings and the demise of the relevance of NZ racing. The heading of this topic is "Volksraad as a broodmare sire". Internationally breed shaping sires (which we should try to embrace) are 124+ type horses that as stallions produce 124+ type horses as race horses. These then hopefully become serious stallions and broodmares in their own right. If Volksraad was a 111 rated horse at best, and his best progeny was rated 118, what should our expectations be for him as a broodmare sire? We know as a broodmare sire he produced Volkstok'n'barrell (rated 111 at best) , Beauty Flash (rated 118) and Able Friend (rated 128), so he was capable of producing a good broodmare. The real question is, based on international standards, is he a broodmare sire of the future that will hold NZ racing and breeding in good stead for the future?

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On 7/16/2019 at 8:50 AM, Berri said:

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Nothing is on face value. It's a sequence of data that can be interpreted one way. My discussion centres around internationally accepted ratings and the demise of the relevance of NZ racing. The heading of this topic is "Volksraad as a broodmare sire". Internationally breed shaping sires (which we should try to embrace) are 124+ type horses that as stallions produce 124+ type horses as race horses. These then hopefully become serious stallions and broodmares in their own right. If Volksraad was a 111 rated horse at best, and his best progeny was rated 118, what should our expectations be for him as a broodmare sire? We know as a broodmare sire he produced Volkstok'n'barrell (rated 111 at best) , Beauty Flash (rated 118) and Able Friend (rated 128), so he was capable of producing a good broodmare. The real question is, based on international standards, is he a broodmare sire of the future that will hold NZ racing and breeding in good stead for the future?

 You sort of answered your own question there. The horses that he is leaving as a broodmare sire backs the argument up as yes 128 for Able Friend, 118 Beauty Flash,  115 Shamexpress,  etc. 

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Berri raises an interesting point.

I feel that it doesn't mean that if a Volksraad mare went to a dominant stallion that she could not produce a race horse rated much higher than the broodmare or the broodmare sire. I think the mare can depending on how good the stallion is. Plus I feel looking at just the broodmare sire is a bit short sited when you ignore a mares female line. Eg Eight Carat.

You would have a better chance for your mare by going to a stallion that has high rating. However please note many people confuse World Rating with Timeform Rating. Some racehorses because of injury are prevented from showing their true ability.

Let's look at a range of very successful broodmare sires and see what they were rated on the race track and what they did as sires.

A quick glance on the list below and clearly the majority of sires below were Timeform Rated 120+ racehorses plus sires where their best 10 runners averaged above Timeform 120+.

Only exceptions Al Akbar. Don't know his rating but I think less than 120 and my quick estimate is that his best 10 runners did not average above Timeform 120+. Obviously Winx is by a good sire in Street Cry and dam Vegas Showgirl was a very good racehorse. 

Current  Australian leading broodmare sires list-

Rank Stallion Rnrs Wnrs Earnings
1 Redoute's Choice (AUS) 1996 569 254 $22,639,707
2 Encosta de Lago (AUS) 1993 718 341 $21,309,286
3 Flying Spur (AUS) 1992 527 241 $15,698,171
4 Zabeel (NZ) 1986 452 199 $13,604,344
5 More Than Ready (USA) 1997 359 174 $12,818,337
6 Galileo (IRE) 1998 232 103 $12,142,326
7 Lonhro (AUS) 1998 252 117 $11,345,441
8 Anabaa (USA) 1992 206 116 $10,598,553
9 Fastnet Rock (AUS) 2001 291 128 $10,484,684
10 Danehill (USA) 1986 391 161 $10,266,272
11 Rubiton (AUS) 1983 134 68 $10,117,463
12 Commands (AUS) 1996 321 145 $8,936,377
13 Kingmambo (USA) 1990 19 8 $8,188,770
14 Canny Lad (AUS) 1987 286 106 $7,992,301
15 General Nediym (AUS) 1994 301 123 $7,922,947
16 Al Akbar (AUS) 1990 14 8 $7,742,057
17 Exceed and Excel (AUS) 2000 241 107 $7,413,610
18 Testa Rossa (AUS) 1996 223 105 $7,336,437
19 Hussonet (USA) 1991 220 102 $6,763,806
20 Red Ransom (USA) 1987 193 78 $6,726,436

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On 7/20/2019 at 6:26 PM, Nasrullah said:

Berri raises an interesting point.

I feel that it doesn't mean that if a Volksraad mare went to a dominant stallion that she could not produce a race horse rated much higher than the broodmare or the broodmare sire. I think the mare can depending on how good the stallion is. Plus I feel looking at just the broodmare sire is a bit short sited when you ignore a mares female line. Eg Eight Carat.

You would have a better chance for your mare by going to a stallion that has high rating. However please note many people confuse World Rating with Timeform Rating. Some racehorses because of injury are prevented from showing their true ability.

Let's look at a range of very successful broodmare sires and see what they were rated on the race track and what they did as sires.

A quick glance on the list below and clearly the majority of sires below were Timeform Rated 120+ racehorses plus sires where their best 10 runners averaged above Timeform 120+.

Only exceptions Al Akbar. Don't know his rating but I think less than 120 and my quick estimate is that his best 10 runners did not average above Timeform 120+. Obviously Winx is by a good sire in Street Cry and dam Vegas Showgirl was a very good racehorse. 

Current  Australian leading broodmare sires list-

Rank Stallion Rnrs Wnrs Earnings
1 Redoute's Choice (AUS) 1996 569 254 $22,639,707
2 Encosta de Lago (AUS) 1993 718 341 $21,309,286
3 Flying Spur (AUS) 1992 527 241 $15,698,171
4 Zabeel (NZ) 1986 452 199 $13,604,344
5 More Than Ready (USA) 1997 359 174 $12,818,337
6 Galileo (IRE) 1998 232 103 $12,142,326
7 Lonhro (AUS) 1998 252 117 $11,345,441
8 Anabaa (USA) 1992 206 116 $10,598,553
9 Fastnet Rock (AUS) 2001 291 128 $10,484,684
10 Danehill (USA) 1986 391 161 $10,266,272
11 Rubiton (AUS) 1983 134 68 $10,117,463
12 Commands (AUS) 1996 321 145 $8,936,377
13 Kingmambo (USA) 1990 19 8 $8,188,770
14 Canny Lad (AUS) 1987 286 106 $7,992,301
15 General Nediym (AUS) 1994 301 123 $7,922,947
16 Al Akbar (AUS) 1990 14 8 $7,742,057
17 Exceed and Excel (AUS) 2000 241 107 $7,413,610
18 Testa Rossa (AUS) 1996 223 105 $7,336,437
19 Hussonet (USA) 1991 220 102 $6,763,806
20 Red Ransom (USA) 1987 193 78 $6,726,436

Not sure I make great sense of what you are trying to say here - The subject line is - "Volksraad as a broodmare sire". The fact is that Volksraad was a champion New Zealand stallion on numerous occasions and did a great job for our industry. He's proven that the could leave a top horse and has done so as a broodmare sire. I think the main thing is that horses with his blood are at an advantage to have rather than a disadvantage ...... Interesting  where I Am Invincible has come from. Not sure too many worry about his timeform at the moment.

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Just looking at that top 10 list and Anabaa has done pretty well off the least amount of runners.  For me he is the least well known of the top 10.  Does anyone have any thoughts on why he has been successful - looking back on the past 3-4 years results, he has been in and around the top 10 throughout.

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Optical- Sorry if I got to far away from you topic.I totally agree having Volksraad as a broodmare sire is more an advantage than a disadvantage.

Nothing at all wrong with him as a broodmare sire at all. 

Correct , I Am Invincible did not have a 120+ Timeform. All I was pointing out is if approx 19 of the 20 leading sires are 120+ Timeform rated horse and 1 out of 19 is not, would you not send your broodmare to the highest rated stallion to improve your chances.

 

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On 7/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, Nasrullah said:

Optical- Sorry if I got to far away from you topic.I totally agree having Volksraad as a broodmare sire is more an advantage than a disadvantage.

Nothing at all wrong with him as a broodmare sire at all. 

Correct , I Am Invincible did not have a 120+ Timeform. All I was pointing out is if approx 19 of the 20 leading sires are 120+ Timeform rated horse and 1 out of 19 is not, would you not send your broodmare to the highest rated stallion to improve your chances.

 

Agree, that is a separate discussion however. It certainly is a factor where consideration should be given when mating mares. I feel there are also a lot of other factors; It is also worth noting that sires with these ratings normally get optimal opportunity given the quality of mare they get when they retire and rightfully so... 

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