classic one

Fiorente at Eliza Park Australia $17,600 incl. GST

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As much as I like Fiorente who had a great turn of foot and really appreciate him being by Monsun, his dam is 3X3 to Danzig which I am not sure is a good thing.

 

On investigating his female tail line he is a direct descendent of Goody Two-Shoes.

 

Other direct descendents of Goody Two-Shoes include Sadler's Wells, Fairy King, Nureyev and more recently Northern Meteor.

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Why are you not sure it's such a good thing for his dam to be 3x3 to Danzig? I think your last line is much more telling as to his possible chances at stud!

Desert Bloom the dam of Fiorente is 3X3 both male toplines to Danzig.

Most pedigree analysts have told me this is not recommended. 

If you look at the pedigree of the successful stallions I have mentioned, none have dublications up that close.

For clarification to readers Goody Two Shoes was born in 1899.

Desert Bloom progeny have no other stakes performers apart from Fiorente.

Second dam two stakes horses but neither have are Northern Dancer lines.Best is by Machiavellian.

Any thoughts out there as to 3x3 to Danzig?

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Desert Bloom the dam of Fiorente is 3X3 both male toplines to Danzig.

Most pedigree analysts have told me this is not recommended. 

If you look at the pedigree of the successful stallions I have mentioned, none have dublications up that close.

For clarification to readers Goody Two Shoes was born in 1899.

Desert Bloom progeny have no other stakes performers apart from Fiorente.

Second dam two stakes horses but neither have are Northern Dancer lines.Best is by Machiavellian.

Any thoughts out there as to 3x3 to Danzig?

Probably More likelihood of getting lots of very good genetics...

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Firstly the 3x3 Danzig should not be viewed in isolation. You have to look at all the other crosses. ( But you are right by itself some people would view as a negative BEFORE he raced). The fact that he was a good racehorse tells us to forget it unless your mare has close up female line of Danzig then you could look on it as a plus.

With a stallion I like to look at the dam sire as much as the sire line --Pilsudski seems to have been a very good middle distance horse who sired both flat and jumps horse but not an outstanding sire -- though nice pedigree.

But like Dopey I think biggest thing going for Fiorente from a genetics point of view is the female line

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Fiorente has a lot going for him and the duplication of Danzig (3x3) in his dams pedigree should be of no concern, it may actually be a positive element. This is the only duplication of a forebear in the first five removes of his pedigree. There have been many highly successful sires and even breed shapers bred from mares with similar duplications of a sire at the same generational distance.

 

In New Zealand the celebrated sire producing mare Cinna was bred on this pattern (3x3 to Hampton). Luthier, champion first season sire and subsequently four times champion sire in France was out of Flute Enchantee who was 3x3 to Blandford. Herbager an influential sire both in France and the USA is yet another example, his dam Flagette was 3x3 to Firdaussi. The terrific racehorse and sire Tudor Melody was bred on a slight variation to this theme, being out of Matelda who was 3x3 to the full brothers Pharos and Fairway.

 

Bromus, the dam the greatest influence on the modern thoroughbred Phalaris was bred 3x4 to Springfield.

 

It is important to bear in mind that in the offspring of Fiorente the duplication of Danzig would have receded to the 5th remove.

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NZ studmasters also turned down Mawingo, there is a discernible shift back towards middle distance and staying stallions taking place in Australia. There may come a time when we can neither be a source of stamina or speed for the Australian market. All of these staying Melbourne Cup and Championships imports will be looking for homes when their racing days are over, many will end up at stud in Australia.

 

It has been announced that Mawingo will stand at Larneuk Stud in Victoria.

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Thanks for letting us know where Mawingo went Henri. He will be worth watching.

 

I don't know much about stallion values but, just out curiosity, do you how much a horse like him would go for ?

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Talking this pedigree stuff is like taking a blind taste with wine. It's been proven that neither out come is predictable. Considering that the entire breed is made up of three stallions and thirty odd broodmares (there have been a number of unknown introductions) and that every theory that every pedigree student that I have met has an alternative point of view, and that every pedigree buff (other than John Aiscan)has not really been statistically more successful than any one else, the language you talk actually has very little validity.

There is something to be said about statistically avoiding certain trends that don't work, and on the inverse, embracing certain traits that do work, but trying to pre-determine the potential stallion ability of Fiorente by saying that Danzig 3x3 may prevent him from becoming a stallion is a very big stretch. A little while ago many people were saying that Danzig over Danzig wasn't working. That's now starting to be disproved. Some of this takes time to be flushed out.

In relation to Fiorente, I'd be approaching his stallion potential completely differently. In the first instance you'd have to try and imagine whether he is a true representative of his sire Monsun, because Monsun is the main influence that I'd be looking towards. I saw Monsun in Germany and have seen many of his progeny. They are exceptional horses but on the whole have the look that they need to be 4 year olds to be good race horses. This of course is born out by the history of his progeny but I'm talking about type. They originally had a reputation that they needed a lot of moisture in the track surface to show there best, and this is probably true when they are younger, but as older horses they are mature enough to handle it. Many of them don't have turns of foot, they just stay well and out gun their rivals.

Now Monsun is a true representative of the German racing system which was created for betting, as the German authorities really frowned upon betting for betting's sake. The system was set up to test who was the best horse and betting came in later. That's why the German racing industry is in so much deep poo but their race horses are fantastic. They have an extremely small breeding market but because you weren't allowed to register horses (in particular stallions) with known problems, only the good sound tough horses ended up standing at stud.

So to Fiorente, although I enjoy to see the end result of racing once a horse has retired, often the most revealing period of time is any horse's first 3 starts. For me it's the shop front window of unrealised potential when the handlers are still trying to work the horse out. So often this is the time to see the raw ability and when the handler thought it might be available for scrutiny.

So as an April 3 year old, trained by Mike Stoute, he had his first start over 2200m at Newbury, which can be a gallopers track because it's not as undulating as some of the UK tracks. This normally means that the trainer (in Stoutes league) feels the horse isn't sharp, needs a sound track and has some ability. You can still get to the classics starting off in April.

Racing Post's comment was

" Fiorente, who holds a Derby entry, is a half-brother to fairly useful 5f and 6f winner Masada, and 6f juvenile winner Roshanak. A big-looking type, he made a pleasing debut and will no doubt be wiser next time with this experience under his belt".

That he held a Derby entry and that Soute decided to take on World Domination (a talk horse before he hurt himself) means Stoute had an opinion and wanted to test it.

He went back to Newbury a month later and was pitted against some Derby entries...once again Racing Post's comments..

"The first three are well enough regarded to have Derby entries and FIORENTE ran out an ultimately very comfortable winner. Down a furlong in trip after finishing fifth to World Domination on his debut here last month, he was pulled off the fence to lead two furlongs out and, pushed clear, won going away. This is a long way off Derby form, but this powerful colt looks a nice prospect who could well be up to pattern company later in the season".

It was the third race that interested me. He started in a Group 2 (King Edward) against Nathanial after the Derby (won by another of Stoute's horses called Workforce). Remember Nathanial had been beaten less than a length by Frankel in his first race. The word is that Workforce and Fiorente had been working together on the gallops and that Workforce was working over the top of Fiorente. So Stoute decided to compete against a horse that was known to be very good. Fiorente was beaten by 5 lengths, but to his credit, Nathanial went on to beat Workforce at his next start in the King George.

So you're either going to say that Fiorente wasn't as good as the best, or that he needed to mature to be at his best, or that Gai Waterhouse improved him. You could argue that based on type (big rangey good looking sort as a youngster) that Stoute decided he was a stayer only, as Stoute had originally trainer Pulsudski and probably had a preconceived idea in relation to his ultimate potential. Or you could say that as a younger horse he was out gunned by the good ones who had more pace at that time.

So if this is the type of horse you would like to breed you mare to, then go for it. Incidentally Pulsudski, although a fantastic looking horse, was an absolute failure as a stallion. Funny how some families don't produce stallions where others do.

As for determining a 3x3 Danzig being the determining factor for a horses potential to become a stallion....one or two steps to far for me.

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Some great insights there Berri, always goods to read your impressions of the European horses. ( our Racecafe resident man on the spot)

 

I found your comment on John Aiscan interesting. I remember him as a man that had a vast knowledge of the thoroughbred and his observations and views were quite interesting especially on the detrimental influence on the breed posed by Phalaris ! Quite interesting too in context of this discussion John Aiscan was quite involved with the development of the German Thoroughbred during the sixties, he admired their approach and knew their bloodlines inside out.

 

So to Fiorente, although I enjoy to see the end result of racing once a horse has retired, often the most revealing period of time is any horse's first 3 starts. For me it's the shop front window of unrealised potential when the handlers are still trying to work the horse out. So often this is the time to see the raw ability and when the handler thought it might be available for scrutiny.
 

Berri I agree with your observation re a horses first three starts, I have much the same sentiments except I would extend it out to 4 starts.

 

Your summation of the stock of Monsun is useful to bear in mind. It is therefore worth noting that his two most successful sire sons Maduro and Samum were both unbeaten at two years, both won two from two starts. Shirocco never raced at 2 years, he won 3 of 6 starts at 3 years.

 

I am sure that had Fiorente been prepared the way Australian or New Zealand racehorses are that he would have shown good form as a 2 year old. Fiorente won over a mile in Australia in GR2 company and over 7 furlongs was third just 1 ¾ lengths behind All Too Hard and Rain Affair in the GR1 All Aged Stakes. There is little doubt that in England Fiorente was just off the very best of his age, however he did have class and seemed to get better with age as the stock of Monsun do.
 

His pedigree and race record suggests that Fiorente will be a source of stamina, if he can transmit class then there is no reason why he should not produce horses that can be effective over all distances and improve with age. IMHO the Danzig factor in his pedigree could make him a successful sire son of Monsun.

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as much as I like Fiorente who had a great turn of foot and really appreciate him being by Monsun, his dam is 3X3 to Danzig which I am not sure is a good thing.

 

On investigating his female tail line he is a direct descendent of Goody Two-Shoes.

 

Other direct descendents of Goody Two-Shoes include Sadler's Wells, Fairy King, Nureyev and more recently Northern Meteor.

 

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Interesting to note 7 of his 9 winners to date are from mares with female lines of Bahram i.e.

Stars of Carrum                                                                                                                                                   Alessandro                                                                                                                                         Mangione                                                                                                                                   Moor Gait                                                                                                                                     Lord Gladstone                                                                                                                    Continuation                                                                                                                  Spensierato

In 5 of the 7 the female line of Bahram is through Summertime who's sire Precipitation is a half brother to Persian Gulf the male line of Fiorente.

 

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On 5/8/2014 at 9:03 PM, Henri Jooste said:

NZ studmasters also turned down Mawingo, there is a discernible shift back towards middle distance and staying stallions taking place in Australia. There may come a time when we can neither be a source of stamina or speed for the Australian market. All of these staying Melbourne Cup and Championships imports will be looking for homes when their racing days are over, many will end up at stud in Australia.

 

It has been announced that Mawingo will stand at Larneuk Stud in Victoria.

Not sure we have ever been a source of speed, in fact my training mentor said in general don’t go to Australia under 1600m

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Early days but with a disproportionately high number of his winners to date with balanced line-breeding to Bahram it is interesting to  note the clue Stars of Carrum provides by bringing that forward one generation with his line-breeding to a son, a daughter, and full sister to Persian Gulf.

703352406_StarsofCarrum.thumb.jpeg.33eaf0a2d29a338ab0d92d165f946d84.jpeg 

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