classic one

Ocean Park or Sacred Falls

45 posts in this topic

Who is the better racehorse and who will do better at stud?

 

Both will do well but I pick Sacred Falls to make a better stallion.

This could lead to some much needed discussion on this site, so Classic One tell us your reasoning for selecting Sacred Falls to be the better sire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel Sacred Falls is the closest in 'type' to O'Reilly compared to other sons of O'Reilly.

 

My opinion is that O'Reilly as a sire is slightly better than Thorn Park. 

 

Glad that he will stand in NZ.

 

Congrats to Waikato Stud for chossing the type of stallions that will have their foals competing at 1600 to 2400m in Australia in a few years time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

O'Reilly is leaving some excellent fillies.

Interesting that Ocean Park has a damline that is pure Waikato Stud.

He is going to enjoy O'Reilly mares, and will doubtless see more than a few.

From a linebreeding perspective, Ocean Park has a lot going for him.

His linebreeding to Special via Nureyez will stand him in good stead when he sees Sadlers Wells line mares.

With sons and daughters of both Sir Ivor and Round Table, he will find lots of compatibility.

On the other hand, Sacred Falls' linebreeding is not quite so impressive. I guess Alamosa shows us that O'Reilly can leave successful sires, but does SF have enough strength in his damline to do the business ? Time will tell....

If I had a Montjeu daughter out of an O'Reilly mare, I'd certainly be sending her to Ocean Park.

Nearco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its a shame that Thorn Park has deceased as he could of reached the heights of O'Reilly, given at the same stage I think Thorn Park would of probably been in front of O'Reilly if measuring them equally. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both horses are exceptional stallion prospects and we are fortunate to have them in NZ.

Pedigree wise you might give the nod to a son of O'Reilly but as said above we might not have seen the best of Thorn Park.

Both were exceptional racehorses, maybe SF the better 3YO. That said OP was super impressive at 4 and showed plenty earlier.

SF is the most like his sire I have seen, with almost freakish ability. I rate O'Reilly as the most naturally talented horse I have seen, and I don't think we ever saw him at his best in such a brief career.

If I had the money I think you could just alternate between them for a few years!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sacred Falls has to be about $25,000 and I feel he can match Ocean Park service fee at $30,000. 

 

Solid Australian Group One form generally works most of the time!!

 

Dundeel at $27,500 verus So You Think at $66,000 is an interesting comparison.

 

I think either Dundeel is to cheap or So You Think overpriced!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waikato Stud look to have the stallion scene wrapped up with these two exciting prospects on top of their proven trio.

 

If I had to select only one of these two this season I would opt for Ocean Park because I believe that he was the superior racehorse of the two especially over 10 furlongs and has a sire producing family. Of course the pedigree of the mare needs to be considered when selecting either option.

 

Classic One as far as Dundeel and So You Think service fees go I have to agree that $66K is excessive, again I would rate So You Think as a cut above Dundeel as a racehorse and by far the more impressive individual. Chances are also better to breed an eye catching yearling by So You Think which could help offset the higher stud fee. The service fee for Dundeel is a pretty smart one on the part of Arrowfield, they have historically been quite pragmatic and not greedy, I suppose competition in Australia is a factor when it comes to fee setting. Nothing wrong with High Chaparral himself and he is proven for much the same outlay as So You Think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smart thinking by Waikato Stud. Even if his racing results are not spectacular in the coming year it will probably not reduce his appeal much. Given the quality of their stallion line up they don't want to "dilute" any of the existing stallion's value too much. Although I read where O'Reilly is fully booked already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, Sacred Falls to race on with Cox Plate as the main target.

I hear too that Shamus Award has also been retired and will stand at $27,500 in his first season....

The same as Dundeel...?? They must be kidding.....

Euro zone also retired yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any further thoughts on the likely success of these two stallions 3 years down the track?

Probably not too much else to say about Sacred Falls at this stage other than reports that he has produced nice looking strong first foals - however when do you hear anything different to this at this stage of a stallions career.. Can anyone confirm?

As for Ocean Park he got a couple of 2yr old winners but not many were seen at the races - no surprises there as I never thought he was likely to get 2yr olds. I hear rumours (probably from the stud) that a lot of them have shown talent but will take time. So what do we think? Will he eventually come good with horses that mature a bit later like the Zabeels, or will he be a fizzer and have progeny that struggle to get to the racetrack or don't run fast enough? Has anyone heard of some good ones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately sires don't really have time prove there worth, always a new one snapping at their heels.Seems they got to get them winning early or breeders wil lose interest quick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sleepy said:

Any further thoughts on the likely success of these two stallions 3 years down the track?

Probably not too much else to say about Sacred Falls at this stage other than reports that he has produced nice looking strong first foals - however when do you hear anything different to this at this stage of a stallions career.. Can anyone confirm?

As for Ocean Park he got a couple of 2yr old winners but not many were seen at the races - no surprises there as I never thought he was likely to get 2yr olds. I hear rumours (probably from the stud) that a lot of them have shown talent but will take time. So what do we think? Will he eventually come good with horses that mature a bit later like the Zabeels, or will he be a fizzer and have progeny that struggle to get to the racetrack or don't run fast enough? Has anyone heard of some good ones?

Re OP,  I do hope they eventually kick goals, especially for those who supported him at the $30k fee....but to still have him advertised this year at the same fee with no obvious stars on the track, is a little rich, but then again at the rate young horses are exported here, it's a stud master's nightmare to get a handle on their exact potential.   I do hope the other new stallions they have can produce but on current evidence, OP & RnP appear to be struggling...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only had to receive the Waikato Stud brochure in the mail to finally understand why it might be that I am unable to afford most of their horses ... lovely piece of glossy production and a very fancy "envelope" -  certainly looked the most extavagant advertising I've been sent this season ... can't have come cheap ....

As I say - they are generally too pricey for me - and IMO almost always right up at - or above - what anyone could justify charging for the various sires ...

Not complaining - we can all see what's on offer and at what price - and make our own decisions.  It's merely an observation ... 

Cheers, J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jess, good comment. There is a reason why the big Waikato Studs each own about 1,000 acres of prime Waikato Land. Small breeders are very much at the bottom of the food chain, as are race horse owners. I agree that most stud fees are far too much, especially for unproven sires. I guess you have to be passionate or mad to be involved! I was passionate, but have since realized I was mad to be involved in breeding thoroughbreds!.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:34 PM, jess said:

As I say - they are generally too pricey for me - and IMO almost always right up at - or above - what anyone could justify charging for the various sires ...

 

15 hours ago, bazach said:

I agree that most stud fees are far too much, especially for unproven sires. I guess you have to be passionate or mad to be involved! I was passionate, but have since realized I was mad to be involved in breeding thoroughbreds!.

It always amuses me when armchair experts make comments' like this on stud fees. I seriously doubt anyone on this chat site would have the gonads to fork out $10 mill for one of these stallions. If you did then you might start to work out why there stud fees get set at the prices they are. Compare them to almost any of the new sires in Aus and you will see they are fair value.

In the event that any of you breed a horse that might make the grade as a stallion prospect I'm fairly sure you will try to sell him for as much as possible - just like every other owner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fitzy -

I have neither gonads (well not males ones anyway - to which I assume you refer in this context - although technically they can be ovarian or testicular) nor 10 million dollars so no - I will not be buying the likes of Ocean Park or Sacred Falls.  Nevertheless - I am entitled to an opinion on a forum like this - even though I am merely a lowly, wage-earning, bill-paying, small time breeder/racehorse owner.

If you review my post - you will see I did not denigrate the sires - I am no armchair expert - but simply provided an observation - my point of view - and in a more respectful, courteous way than you expressed yours.   

J.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, fitzy said:

 

It always amuses me when armchair experts make comments' like this on stud fees. I seriously doubt anyone on this chat site would have the gonads to fork out $10 mill for one of these stallions. If you did then you might start to work out why there stud fees get set at the prices they are. Compare them to almost any of the new sires in Aus and you will see they are fair value.

In the event that any of you breed a horse that might make the grade as a stallion prospect I'm fairly sure you will try to sell him for as much as possible - just like every other owner.

Anyone would think you own shares in these stallions considering how protective your being .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now