RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Craig Symes

Thrilling Butcha

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Ostis pursuit still holds the record, but this does bring up a debate. I believe that any hand started race should not produce an official time as these races can be in accurate and can provide in accurate information to the punters

Yeah your spot on... Has been discussed on here before as theirs some dogs running around with PB's that were hand timed, unbeknown to the average punter...Do you honestly think the NZGRA gives a flying **** about punters tho?

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Some people on these forums obviously don't know the difference between hand starts and hand times.

 

Hand starts make no difference to the times recorded on races if the timing mechanism is triggered by the lids opening as is the case at almost every track in Australia and New Zealand. As a matter of fact the only track I have ever heard of not having this mechanism is Auckland.

 

Hand timing can be inaccurate simply because of people's reaction times to pressing the stopwatch as compared to the actual timing mechanism being triggered automatically. In most cases people clock the lids moving which is generally around two tenths difference. To get a more accurate hand time one needs to clock the lure as it crosses the electronic eye or trip point on the rail. Anyone who has trialled at Cambridge whilst I was working there will tell you that I clocked almost the same (within a couple of hundredths)  as the electric timer because I clock this way. A habit many official clockers and back-up raceday clockers adopted long ago on Australian tracks.

 

As I said the timing mechanism at Auckland is unique and different. It is not activated by the lids but by the lure activating a relay switch on the rail at the same point that it sets off the boxes. When hand started it doesn't always mean that the time will be faster either because it may actually be slower too. Example: if the starter pulls the lid a fraction early (before the lure has reached the correct point) then the lids will have opened a moment before the timer has activated resulting in a faster time. However if he pulls the lids late then the timer would have been activated before the lids have opened resulting in a time slower than they actually ran.

 

Whilst there is some doubt over the authenticity of those records at Auckland because one or both may have been actually been slower there is just as high a likelihood that one or both times may have been faster than posted. I have clocked the replays of both umpteen times and clocked pretty much the same as the times posted on the day. As I stated almost two years ago when this happened with the modern technology available today that experts in the time and sound fields should have been consulted to correctly measure the times from replays and set the matter to rest. At least hand starting gives a back-up to timing as it will still be correct. There is no back-up for Auckland's timing system.

 

On the Cambridge records. Whilst I wasn't there when the 650m record was set I have been at committee meetings where this matter has been discussed and from what I have been told it was hand started and the timer was working correctly therefore there should be no issue with this time. The 747m record was both hand started and hand timed and not by a regular clocker and is clearly false. There was a broken wire in the timer cable between the plug point and the boxes at the time. I have clocked the video of this race a hundred times and can't get within a bull's roar of what was posted officially that night, as a matter of fact it's around five tenths or half a second slower. Don't blame the steward either as he wasn't informed on the night.   

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Cambridge, like just about every other track anywhere in Aus and NZ works off the lids. That's why there is no back-up for the Auckland timing and as a result it's the only place hand starts aren't accurate.  

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Is that not the point the records at Auckland that were handstarted cannot stand as it comes to when the boxes were released... Also Greg  can you please tell us what tracks in nsw use the 8 to 10 mtr lure Mr barrington is talking about and recommended here as he said it has been a success in nsw??

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Yes that is the argument re. the records but if Auckland had the same timing mechanism as every other track then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Why is it different ? And when it was set up there was obviously no thought given to; i) What if a race has to be hand started;  or ii) What is the back up plan for timing. In my opinion both dog have been fairly denied the records as a result. Osti's Pursuit nearly died late last year and is a shadow of his former self (he's lost 8 to 10 lengths) yet still runs 35.00 flat in trials around Auckland. So I have no doubt that he ran what was posted that day and timing the videos proves that. The time was some four tenths under the old mark and that is substantial. It would mean that the starter would have had to have an absolute shocker which would be very noticeable to either pull the lever that late.   

 

But rules are rules and I'm not arguing with that, just that there needs to be a back up system in place. The funny thing is every other time recorded over the 2 to 3 months that the box shammozzle was going on is recognised, including Bright Star's 18.09 etc. as PB's. This can happen again so get it sorted !  

 

Re. the lure distance.

NRR Rule 55 (1) and GRNZ Rule 75 (1) The lure shall be controlled so as to be positioned at all times during the running of an Event / Raceat a distance of not less than 5 metres and no greater than 8 metres ahead of the leading greyhound. The stewards may p ermit a variance to the distance if satisfied that as a consequence of such variance no greyhound has been substantially inconvenienced so as to affect the outcome of the Event / Race.  

 

It is argued that when the lure is driven closer that some dogs will overreach and therefore increase the risk of injury. Driving it on the safe side a little longer may reduce this risk as well as leaving a safer margin for driver error. It can also be argued that some dogs don't like a longer lure and give up easier.......so it's a tricky one.   

 

No-one can ever get out there and measure the distance so it's basically a guess on the acceptable distance at best that most lure drivers adopt. 8 to 10 metres is probably what most lure drivers drive at. Now before anyone argues this to the nth degree then nearly every race in Victoria would be a no race under that rule because they're trips are set further forward than other states and the boxes open much later whereby at that point the lure is generally well in excess of 8 to 10 metres, possibly double that.    

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Thanks Greg ,and yes I agree it is a shame for both ostis pursuit and thrilling brat....in this time and age you would think a backup would be there , and maybe Auckland should change to the traps starting the timer ??

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The Cambridge 650 record was both handstarted and handtimed. Just have to look at the margins of the race aswell. The record was listed as 35.47 for a long time, when brat ran 35.12 all of a sudden there was another time of teegan pulled out of no where, the reason this time wasn't listed as the record was because it wasn't! And as for the 700m record that's just an embarrassment they even put that up as an official time. Thrilling brat has been robbed of 2 track records, one through bad luck maybe one through pathetic record keeping. Something the dog doesn't deserve

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Wouldn't be surprised if teegans record was just recorded wrong, and in fact was meant to be 36.07, seen that happen plenty of times. I don't mean to take anything away from teegan a tough stayer who has left a very nice litter, but what's the point of having records if they are not taken seriously.

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The Butcha jumped well and was in 2nd around first bend.  At the end of the bend he caught up to My Squizzy and instead of taking the gap he looked to eyeball or atleast go close to My Squizzy.  After that he seemed to get his mind back on the job and ran on for 2nd though he was never going to catch Andrea.  

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I don't think I've ever seen a post this long dedicated to one dog!! Did he turn his head? Didn't he turn his head? Was he chasing properly? Blah blah blah!Lets concentrate on facts! The dog was wide on the first turn! Fact) the dog went for a gap between two other dogs!fact( only the dog knows if he had room to get through at the speed he was going!fact( the winner of the race got a perfect rails run and there after was all ways going to win!!fact( every dog has a off day!! Well done ray Adcock on getting two dogs from the same litter into the final.

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I don't think I've ever seen a post this long dedicated to one dog!! Did he turn his head? Didn't he turn his head? Was he chasing properly? Blah blah blah!Lets concentrate on facts! The dog was wide on the first turn! Fact) the dog went for a gap between two other dogs!fact( only the dog knows if he had room to get through at the speed he was going!fact( the winner of the race got a perfect rails run and there after was all ways going to win!!fact( every dog has a off day!! Well done ray Adcock on getting two dogs from the same litter into the final.

sorry Josh , you always post very sensibly but this time you need to take your blinkers , and maybe give them to the Butcha to wear. He got away with last time but surely not this time. 

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