RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
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That's right Henri when you have been caught out talking bollocks as you have been "play the man not the ball".

Its a similar debating style to Winston Peters - are you related?

For Tights figures you could always try NZB or Arion. Presume you have heard of them?

I fail to see why you are so insecure that you need to resort to personal insults, when ever you are challenged?

Oh of course as I have noted before - you think you are always right, don't you!

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Fitzy as usual you do not answer the question so I will repeat it, where did you get the figure 400 foals for Tights from ?

Every thoroughbred site will clearly show that he had nowhere near that number, Arion Pedigrees says 276 which no matter how you try and present it is not even close to 400. You just cannot admit that you have it wrong, first you say the NZ Stud book (which you seem incapable of reading or maybe understanding), now you claim Arion pedigrees which somehow you turn 276 into 400. Here it is in black and white from the Arion website.

R2zYiI4.png

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Henri in 2 posts you have said Tights had 226 foals in one and in the next you say 276. Which one is right or is there doubt about the no of foals?

Anyway none of this has anything to do with the central issue. Tights was a poor sire - in all of the exchanges above no one has lept to his defense!

I hope Ferlax is a successful stallion. The more he throws to Pentire and Marscay and the less he throws to Tights the better sire he will be.

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taken from Arion

Tights 18 Stakes Winners (SW) from 276 foals = 6.5% SW to foals

Savabeel 31 Stakes Winners (SW) from 429 foals = 7.2%

Zabeel 151 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1635 foals = 9.2%

O'Reilly 75 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1417 foals = 5.2%

Darci Brahma 16 Stakes Winners (SW) from 374 foals = 4.2%

Redoubte's Choice 115 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1260 foals = 9.1%

Lohnro 43 Stakes Winners (SW) from 819 foals = 5.2%

I've just taken a few that interested me. So who ever said Tights was a failure has rocks in their heads. He is right up there with some of the good ones, he died young, he had limited opportunities (small number of foals) but he really performed well. Most average stallions sit at less than 2% stakes winners to foals.

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taken from Arion

Tights 18 Stakes Winners (SW) from 276 foals = 6.5% SW to foals

Savabeel 31 Stakes Winners (SW) from 429 foals = 7.2%

Zabeel 151 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1635 foals = 9.2%

O'Reilly 75 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1417 foals = 5.2%

Darci Brahma 16 Stakes Winners (SW) from 374 foals = 4.2%

Redoubte's Choice 115 Stakes Winners (SW) from 1260 foals = 9.1%

Lohnro 43 Stakes Winners (SW) from 819 foals = 5.2%

I've just taken a few that interested me. So who ever said Tights was a failure has rocks in their heads. He is right up there with some of the good ones, he died young, he had limited opportunities (small number of foals) but he really performed well. Most average stallions sit at less than 2% stakes winners to foals.

Then you never put a bridle on one Berri, I did, and saw plenty…. they were not a generous breed, and as for confirmation, they were warmbloods in disguise. 

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Biff,

If trainers took your view about certain breeds having character flaws,then the progeny of Sir Tristram and Zabeel and many others would never have scaled the heights they did.

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No I doubt that Forrest, the progeny of those stallions mentioned that I saw at least were outstanding. Maybe I was ''fooled' as the ones I saw were trained by Bart, CS, in MEL and here in SYD by all the best…….sales toppers, so I was spoilt……I knew Marauding's full bro well, and he was outstanding….and I saw Zabeel himself daily, and in the afternoons out walking on the hill at Flemington.

 

So I hope that puts that to bed Forrest, ….with respect.

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No I doubt that Forrest, the progeny of those stallions mentioned that I saw at least were outstanding. Maybe I was ''fooled' as the ones I saw were trained by Bart, CS, in MEL and here in SYD by all the best…….sales toppers, so I was spoilt……I knew Marauding's full bro well, and he was outstanding….and I saw Zabeel himself daily, and in the afternoons out walking on the hill at Flemington.

 

So I hope that puts that to bed Forrest, ….with respect.

So all these champion trainers that you rubbed shoulders with on a daily basis,only trained sale toppers biff ?

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Well yes Forrest. When you train at Flemington and Rosehill you actually do rub shoulders with champions……Bart was my neighbour as was CS and Freedie…….we watched Damien grow up…….what else do you need Forrest?

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Well yes Forrest. When you train at Flemington and Rosehill you actually do rub shoulders with champions……Bart was my neighbour as was CS and Freedie…….we watched Damien grow up…….what else do you need Forrest?

More interested in the fact that you said the progeny they trained of various stallions were sale toppers

I dont think that they became the trainers they are and were by only training sale toppers

Was a broad statement that is not fact.

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You had a go Forrest and at least I can back up my statement with facts…My neighbours used to trot out each morning the ilk of Mahogany, Flying Spur, Zabeel, and I could go on however the page is not long enough. Suffice to say I was fortunate enough to have trained a sale topper in the shape of Marauding's full bro……..he was a 750k yearling way back then.

 

I hope you don't spill your pinot Forrest……I'm not into big noting, but when backed into a corner will fire live ammo…..not blanks.

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Berri I will agree Tights was a better stallion than Sambuk and a few other Vision Bloodstock horses I can think of .... ;)

Fritzy boy...I'm just starting to think that you're not as good as you think you are.

This was written recently by a learned racing/ breeding commentator...

"Tights duly proved to be a very successful stallion. Sadly his stud career was not as long as it might have been because he died, aged only 14, in 1995, but during his term at stud he came up with 18 stakes winners, including three who triumphed at Group One level: Fayreform, Tartan Tights and Lycra. Each of these three fillies was arguably the leader of her generation in New Zealand. Lycra was a true champion at two, defeating the colts in both of the country's Group One two-year-old races, the Manawatu Sires' Produce Stakes at Awapuni and the ARC Sires' Produce Stakes at Ellerslie. She then held her own against the best of her age in Australia: having finished second in the Group One QTC Sires' Produce Stakes in Brisbane over the winter, she headed to the Melbourne Spring Carnival as a spring three-year-old, finishing third in the Thousand Guineas at Caulfield and fourth in the Victoria Derby at Flemington. Tartan Tights fared even better at three, completing the NZ 1,000 Guineas/NZ Oaks double, while Fayreform proved herself a true star in open class, landing three Group One victories: the Waikato International and New Zealand Stakes at weight-for-age and the Thorndon Mile under handicap conditions".

I saw a number of them at the sales and quite liked what I saw. His fillies were better than his colts and it comes as no surprise that he has become quite a good broodmare sire.

So let's get the facts right, you said he was a dud stallion...he wasn't....he was actually very good. The facts speak for themselves.

And while we're at it let's talk about Sambuk....by Kris out of Bireme....4 starts 3 places in addition to running 4th in the King Edward V11 (Gp2) at Ascot. At that time of the millennium, Sea Anchor (a close relation - also a Haunui stallion) had put his best foot forward producing Red Anchor and Western Lea. The horse cost buttons. What no-one knew was that Kris as a stallion slows everything down. What Sambuk became was a fantastic sports horse stallion.

As for the other Vision Bloodstock horses that you refer to, I suppose the owners of Imperial Angel, Horlicks, Waverley Star, Eastern Joy etc. might be quite pleased we walked into their lives for one reason or the other.

So Fritzy Boy, you played the man when you got the facts wrong...there was only one idiot who used to do that and that was a bloke called Colin Wightmann aka Wrongman....a twit and moron of the highest accord. Either you've de-polled yourself to Fritzy Boy, you're a close relation to Wrongman, or just as big an idiot as he was/ maybe still is.

Get your facts right

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You had a go Forrest and at least I can back up my statement with facts…My neighbours used to trot out each morning the ilk of Mahogany, Flying Spur, Zabeel, and I could go on however the page is not long enough. Suffice to say I was fortunate enough to have trained a sale topper in the shape of Marauding's full bro……..he was a 750k yearling way back then.

 

I hope you don't spill your pinot Forrest……I'm not into big noting, but when backed into a corner will fire live ammo…..not blanks.

 

 

You deride a stallion's performance [Tights] when in fact it was very good as mentioned by others, based on the ones you put a bridle on, or saw walking by at trackwork, and yet you dismiss henri's stat on Haradasun over flying spur mares as too small a sample.

How small a sample do you think your encounters with Tights progeny is?

You talk about Zabeel and Sir tristram progeny in the same way [i.e that you once again have seen them all],and give the impression that all these legendary trainers have only trained the sale toppers.

You bring up that you trained a $750 000 yearling,which by today's standards would be a few million dollars and must have been a magnificent looking horse,and you ask not  to be judged as a big noter,[i will leave that for other readers].

It is not that your opinion is not wanted,but you leave me with the impression that yours is the most important,disregarding others as less worthy.

 

p.s With a horse as well bred as that and paying as much as that,how many group races did you win with it ?

      listed ?

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You deride a stallion's performance [Tights] when in fact it was very good as mentioned by others, based on the ones you put a bridle on, or saw walking by at trackwork, and yet you dismiss henri's stat on Haradasun over flying spur mares as too small a sample.

How small a sample do you think your encounters with Tights progeny is?

You talk about Zabeel and Sir tristram progeny in the same way [i.e that you once again have seen them all],and give the impression that all these legendary trainers have only trained the sale toppers.

You bring up that you trained a $750 000 yearling,which by today's standards would be a few million dollars and must have been a magnificent looking horse,and you ask not  to be judged as a big noter,[i will leave that for other readers].

It is not that your opinion is not wanted,but you leave me with the impression that yours is the most important,disregarding others as less worthy.

 

p.s With a horse as well bred as that and paying as much as that,how many group races did you win with it ?

      listed ?

Forrest I'm not dismantling my life on here for your sake, it's a forum after all and we are entitled to an opine. My opine is just that, mine. My facts are realtime, they are not derived from books or stats, my opinion of Tights is from personal accounts with his progeny and watching and listening to my peers at track work each morning.

 

To me he was not a stallion I would have walked over hot coals for, he may have had fans in other reaches, but not for me…and I said so. I wasn't privy to his NZ raced stock, I saw what was presented here in Oz……..so that's where it lays…...

 

As for my expensive well bred horse, I wish I had of had him as a 2yo, he was sent to me as an older horse to rejuvenate or send over the country…….he was sent to me as was another in similar circumstances, I was able to win several races with him including a metro track record beating the subsequent QE2 winner, so sometimes it works, sometimes not.

 

I am not in the habit of putting my achievements up in lights Forrest, however I'll defend myself to the finish as is my right, the only reason I raised this was to substantiate my first hand recollections of particular horses and breeds.

 

I have no intention of turning this into a 'This is my Life' so please accept this as the final post on the matter. I respect yours and all opines, I most certainly do not think I'm the breeding messiah Forrest, but by geez I was never a fan of Tights and did not think his stock was genuine, you do by all accounts as does Berri, so good luck to you.

 

Have a good one!

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Biff...did you buy the sale topper full to Marauding or did someone give it to you to train? What other good horses did you train?

Hello Berri, please see the post I made in answer to Forrest…….I think you will get the gist.

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Biff...I do get the gist of your response and that's a cop out. Plenty of people come onto this site with an opinion. Some back it up with facts, others don't. Some hide behind aliases, others like me don't. This post progressed to assertions that Tights was not a good stallion and that contributors were providing bullshit data. As it turns out Tights was actually quite a decent stallion. If you would have looked at O'Reilly's stock at the same stage as Tight's death, I'm picking that they would have been extremely similar. I know...I bred mares to o'Reilly and bought yearlings by him, some of which did us proud. The key to stallions is once you know they can produce good stock, then you customise the book to make sure you recreate the trends that produced the good ones. So it is wholly reasonable to expect that Tight's stud record would actually have improved had he lived long enough and been managed correctly.

So the fact is that Tight's was actually a very good stallion who died too young. I don't care a rats arse whether you or those that you associate with had bad ones. You were obviously bad judges of this stallion's stock. Being by Nijinsky you had to have experience in understanding what types were the successful ones. Some of Nijinsky's stock were hard to train, not too dissimilar to many stallions. One that comes to mind in Australia is Galizzz....Aussie trainers don't know how to train them....Europeans do.

So you were factually wrong about Tights.

So I ask you what other horses you trained because anyone with half a web based brain can find out who Marauding's brother is. I haven't bothered yet because I was expecting a straight forward response to your claim to training him. What was the response?....mirrors. Did you actually train Marauding's brother? Are you a good judge? Do you or can you train as you claim you are and can? Why wouldn't you be forthright about these responses? What normally happens on this site is that bull-shitters are smoked out. Are you one of them? Prove to us that you aren't by being honest. It's quite simple....do you want to be taken seriously?

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Berri, the previous owner of this site is correct, you are a fruit. If you are a troll as it's proving, then do your worst, find out through your research, I'm not about to get into a slanging match……..

 

Trust and honesty is waning, if you can't take what someones says on here, then you are obviously judging like by like. You have missed the whole point, I haven't called you a bull shitter, where did I say that. I say that my experience of Tights stock was not good, and many of my peers said same……they just didn't like them! plus they didn't handle the grind and atmosphere of MEL and city race and stable routines…….

 

I should have just shut up and let you believe what you believe…….many Oz trainers would be at your throat with the insinuation they can't train as your European trainers can…….with the exception perhaps of the mighty Dermott Weld and the French generals such as Mrs C Head, and Alan de Royer Dupre I would give a tinker cuss for the rest…….they don't have to train on tracks like we have to, they have magnificent facilities at Newmarket, at Chantilly etc……..but there horses grow lengths here in Oz, why do you reckon that is?……...

 

I've been polite to Forrest as I was to you…….you don't deserve it……..

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Gentlemen (and Ladies, if I have miscontrued pseudonyms)...

 

This thread has run its course, in my opinion. Nothing good can come from its continuation.

Personally, I take every opinion posted by each and every contributor to this thread very seriously indeed.

Naturally, I don't agree with all the views proferred, but I do know that each and every contributor here knows more about the thoroughbred breeding industry than I do.

I want to keep reading the opinions of all of you.

I respectfully ask you all to cease fire.in the interests of us all.

 

Thank you for tolerating my intrusion.

All the best.

 

Ashoka

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Biff...read what I said...literally ... I never called you a bull shitter, I said that anyone who said Tights was a dud stallion was relying on bull shit data. I also stated that What normally happens on this site is that bull-shitters are smoked out.

I asked you a few straight forward questions but you became evasive....Why? If sticking to facts is a troll, then I'm a troll. On this site you CAN'T take everything that everyone says as gospel because a lot of the content that is posted is incorrect. Take this Tights discussion as an example. If someone ask me any question on any matter I try to answer it unless I'm covering for some reason....may be politics...

So to the discussion...training in the UK....make no bones about it....there are some very good trainers and horse people in the UK. They invented training colts to make stallions and looking after highly strung fillies to see if they could run. As for why they seem to find speed in Australia it's that in the UK the tracks are undulating. Therefore you have to have a horse settle to ensure it can see its stride on what ever part of the track it is racing on. As they need to train colts, they give them longer slower work in order to keep the weight off them, keep their temperaments under control and therefore keep their nuts in. They also wait for the horse to arrive as a physical being and therefore tend to look after them better. When they arrive in Australia, they are mature, often have ability and need an environmental change.

Then the Aussie trainer gets them...often a better grade trainer. Instead of having to race on undulating tracks, the tracks are flat. Those fast twitch fibre types that were trained to have slow twitch characteristics can all of a sudden be trained as the work is done at a faster pace than in the UK. In the UK the tracks are wide open expanses of land and therefore barrier draw means very little unless there is a track side bias. In Aussie the barrier draw means a lot because get caught three wide and you die. Means you have to have pace to get to a handy position in respect of the running rail. So the trainer needs to know the horse has speed to do that otherwise the horse is one dimensional.

So its not really only about training ability, its about the environment. And if you were going to compare eggs with eggs, then you would say the Aussie trainers don't have the ability (or environment) to train talented but non Aussie conventional horses. The Galizzz's are a prime example.

So in respect of your accolade to UK trainers, how could you leave out Andre Fabre, Mike Stoute, John Gosden, Nicky Henderson, Jim Bolger just to mention a few. These guys train horses to win the biggest races all round the World and have unbelievable hit rates (starts to win).

Interesting.....Can you save me some time and tell us what the name of the brother to Marauding was?

Thanks

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To each his own Berri, way back I got to ride for Snowy Lupton, not often, but the odd ride. Now Snowy rarely took his horses to Waverly to gallop, they went round the up and downs of the farm, Kiwi was trained same.

 

So when you dropped over their neck they would have a climbing action, it took them best part of a round to settle into a rhythm. When I watch the horses work on the heath at Newmarket especially when they go up the Al bahathy they seem to climb to me, but then again, they all seem to do the same. As for your comments on undulating surface, yes I agree…….this very much effects a horses ability to stretch out and extend……it's the same here in Oz when a horse goes to Hamilton in Victoria, that track has its climb and takes no prisoners. Mt Gambier is the same, a weird track that suits some not others, so generates horses for courses.

 

So in summary, we need to agree on one thing, we are nver going to agree on Tights, and that's what makes the world go around.

 

Aidan O'Brien I think wouldn't make foreman here, he is blessed and can bury his mistakes. On the other hand, I would walk over broken glass to see his son ride, he has classic hands, has a race brain and balance…..he's a natural, but I reckon it missed a generation with his old man……the record books will say otherwise.

 

I'll be at July Cup at Newmarket, if by chance you are 'going home' then I can buy you a beer, and all would be divulged. Save that I wish you well.

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