New Stallions for 2014

[optical 41]

Haven't seen anything published about any new stallions for 2014. Any rumours out there? Sacred Falls I guess when he retires he will go to Waikato? Anything else out there I have missed?

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Cambridge have been making noises about a new one.......still no announcement.

[optical 41]

Cheers Lloyd, I read today that Cambridge now are not bringing the new stallion due to unforeseen circumstances...... 

[Octagonal 0]

Cheers Lloyd, I read today that Cambridge now are not bringing the new stallion due to unforeseen circumstances......

The word was Camelot was their stallion announcement, confirmation earlier in the week that he is standing at Coolmore in Australia. That will definitely put some heat on there mare numbers through the gate - 2 Coolmore stallions, & some nice horses who will probably get 50 mares each at a push. Windsor also heavy reliant on the Coolmore horses but I do love Poi Mour.

Stallion super powers are now Waikato Stud, and Westbury will only strengthen. CD Nadeem flying & Alamosa developing with emerging horses coming through.

Moving forward stallion ownership & Aust horses moving at realistic fees are where it's at. Waikato's strategy is reaping its rewards through years of stallion investment, and racing its mares. Options - Criterion, Green Moon, Sessions, Dissident, Eurozone, Shamus Award. Shamexpress will probably be picked up by an NZ stud due to O'Reilly factor. Possibly Bull Point.

If El Roca wins either the Doncaster or All Aged he will be possibly be out of reach. Dundeal is a big loss.

[fitzy 143]

No doubt Dundeal a very superior racehorse, and outstanding at his best.

I understand that the NZ studs which were interested had every chance to get him so maybe he was just too many $$ to make it work.

 

As a stallion prospect though its worth remembering that hes only 15.2 hh at best and has some hoof problems as we have seen evidence of recently. On that basis he may prove to be a slightly risky stallion prospect.

 

Asd Octagonal notes above we need to be thankful that outfits like Waikato Stud have had the foresight to purchase outright stallions like Savabeel and Ocean Park. Renting horses off Coolmore will not aid the long term future of TB breedingin NZ.

[Octagonal 0]

Good comments Fitzy.

I don't think Dundeels size matters, his turn of foot is the key, shown last Autumn but also he sat outside Atlantic Jewel & won. Stravinsky, Not a Single Doubt, & even Raise the Flag are small horses but leave good types. Value on Dundeel is one thing but as an owner where would you want him to stand here or Arrowfield, think that answers itself.

Zabeelionaire is a good punt horse on a low intro fee, we need to protect the Zabeel line, & the Carnegie cross is proven here. Zed is kicking goals still. The Machiavellian line is proven - Shocking had a good sales series, Oz horses are known which is the key for Oz trainers syndicating their horses - Chivalry could be a nice horse which I think Mr Harvey has ownership in long term.

Shaft is for sale - could be a good RTR, Karaka million stallion - well bred, good record, trade horses. Could be an opportunity for studs to look at Partnerships with a Vinery or Eliza - horses like Onemorenomore, Big Brown, Love Conquers All, even a Wanted would get great mare numbers here. These horses are all competing vs boom first season sires - the punt is how their progeny is performing in 2 yrs time.

[Forrest 78]

FIORENTE would be a great aquisition, I wonder if NZ could secure him?,really interesting pedigree and fantastic looking horse.

[classic one 12]

Agree Fiorente and Green Moon would be good aquisitions for stud in NZ and would sell well at Karaka.

 

Any horse that raced from three to six years of age in good company has to be tough and sound.

 

The year Green Moon won was one of the strongest ever going by timeform ratings.

[Breeder 607]

I saw Mawingo for sale on Gavelhouse recently and thought he would have been a great horse for a mid range NZ stud. He did not stay on the site long , so I assume someone snapped him quickly.

[optical 41]

I saw Mawingo for sale on Gavelhouse recently and thought he would have been a great horse for a mid range NZ stud. He did not stay on the site long , so I assume someone snapped him quickly.

 

I think he would be ideal for a stud to take a punt on. G1 winner and international race form (singapore cup form). Miswaki sireline and sadlers wells mare. Would suit our type of mares I would think. 

[highview 2]

What's your thoughts on Tobique, sold not to bad at Karaka, cut short by injury I think.

[biff 2,158]

Chatted to someone who was offered Fiorente…a difficult sell to mare owners in Australia.  However NZ would be mad not to snap up Green Moon - Montjeu sire line works in NZ.  However the Sadler's line doesn't in Australia because they don't have enough "like for like" mares.  Lovely stallions on offer in NZ and most are priced realistically.  Widden announced Zoustar today at $A44K which is totally ridiculous.  NZ prices for Pour Moi, Rip V Winkle, Power are excellent and that's why I've sent my mare over - good choice of complimentary stallions at reasonable prices.  However I believe Ocean Park is a silly price at $30K for NZ.  Sacred Falls has a wonderful race record and whilst he is "neat" he is not an imposing type. Interesting year…for those interested in breeding sprinters, I think Dalghar and Per Incanto are real chances…and they're well priced.  Theywayyouare is going great guns, which proves you don't need to spend heaps of money to breed a racehorse -  but just ensure you match your mare on type and then pedigree.  After all, you only improve your mare's pedigree by race track performance!!

[fitzy 143]

Fail to see your logic bagging Ocean Parks fee when the horse he beat in the Cox Plate stands at A$66,000 !!!

[biff 2,158]

Whilst OP was an exceptional race horse, he doesn't have the strength in his pedigree whilst All Too Hard was a perfect specimen, great family behind him and we never really saw the best of him.  But I do think $A66K is also ridiculous - if you are breeding commercially I'm not sure how you can be expected to make any money.  Stallion fees in general for 2014 have gone into the "stupid" domain.  There is not an endless money pit out there….or a supply of quality mares worthy of spending this kind of money on.

 

Vinery Stud has realised that if you charge big money then breeders will not support you on a continuous basis.  They have reduced More Than Ready from $100K to $60K - so with all these young, unproven stallions hovering around the +$30K, for commercial breeders, MTR represents good value.  I think breeders who supported Coolmore over the past years based on hype surrounding their stallions - Henrythenavigator, Duke of Marmalade, Dylan Thomas - and paid big money, cannot help but be wary...

 

But I still believe NZ offers value for money and a fantastic environment to rear lovely horses.

[crustyngrizzly 1,700]

Does money actually chage hands with some of these stallion fees.Studs nowseem to send their mares allover the place and i was thinking maybe you can send 1 mare to my horse for 10k and i will send my 2 mares to your stallion at 5k each..Years ago this type of thing wouldn't happen on a large scale ,

[fitzy 143]

Ferlax looks like an interesting contender for Haunui. Pentire has been a better than useful sire, and his best progeny have been very good. Seems fairly priced at $7k.

 

Following Biffs comments above about overpriced Aussie sires interesting to note a new horse "The Factor". Obvioulsy a good class son of boom sire War Front, but stand at US$16000 in Kentucky and he A$22000 at Newgate !! (converts to US$17200)

 

Never knew that Aussie breeding rated itself ahead of Kentucky.

[fitzy 143]

Whilst OP was an exceptional race horse, he doesn't have the strength in his pedigree whilst All Too Hard was a perfect specimen, great family behind him and we never really saw the best of him.  But I do think $A66K is also ridiculous - if you are breeding commercially I'm not sure how you can be expected to make any money.  Stallion fees in general for 2014 have gone into the "stupid" domain.  There is not an endless money pit out there….or a supply of quality mares worthy of spending this kind of money on.

 

biff I can’t agree with your pedigree observations above. For my money a son of Thorn Park (a superior sire lost to early) from a daughter of Zabeel, and from the family of Champion sire O'Reilly and Golden Slipper winner Courtza is easily comparable to a son of Casino Prince from a Desert Son mare. To be fair there is little doubt that ATH is from a top Aussie family, but no way is his overall pedigree superior, even with the Black Caviar factor.

 

We could debate the merits of various stallion prospects for weeks and never agree, but the proof will be in the performance of their progeny in 3 or 4 years time on the racetrack.

[biff 2,158]

Fair comment Fitzy and duly noted,  however I've based my opinion/analysis on the fact that ATH had unlimited racetrack potential, great style of horse and his immediate family from a stallion perspective is going great guns - Magnus and Wilander. His grandsire Flying Spur has plenty of young sons doing the job at stud and is absolute star broodmare sire.  However I think OP is a great coup for NZ but as Thorn Park is an unknown as sire of sires go, and Nureyev has not been a the star sire in this part of the world as he has been in Europe.  In fact, the Sadlers Wells arm of the Northern Dancer dynasty has not been that dynamic in our part of the world, with the major exception of the sensational Montjeu.  In fact, the world's best sire, Galizzz, could be assessed as a "flop" re his Southern Hemisphere exploits. I think its possibly down to the kind of mare these superbly bred horses cover in Aus - probably not "like for like"?

 

But what I will confirm that stallion fees in general for 2014 are very mixed.  Pierro and ATH fees are ridiculous.  I believe the Coolmore stallions that are NZ based for the Southern season represent excellent value and will have the opportunity to cover the "right" type of mare - a bit like High Chap did in his Windsor Park days….let's hope RvW and PM don't end up in the Hunter Valley, because it will not end well…again, just like High Chap…you can pick up HC fillies for not a lot of money….obviously they are not "on trend" in 2014...

 

Also, Coolmore stallions stand for much higher fees in Ireland than they do in Aus or NZ - Power, Declaration of War, Camelot etc etc.   with the one exception being SYT….and that's due to his "cult" status in this part of the world.   Also, Hanui stands Iffraaj for a lot less than he stands for in Ireland.  I guess Newgate have seen a trend developing with the War Front line and have decided to cash in…..and of course, The Factor has other sons of War Front to contend with in the US….so he needs to be reasonably priced in that neck of the woods...

 

As for Ferlax, I won't pass judgement but he won only one race of note and he never seemed to reach the heights his trainer seemed to expect?

 

But its a very exciting time - plenty of new stallions and plenty of horses for the buying bench to spend other people's money on which seems to be what's happening on the GC right now!

[Dibbles 65]

Ferlax - I do not think running 2nd to Alantic Jewel & many other good horses in a Gr1 is nothing to be cried at considering only one horse ever bet her.

[biff 2,158]

I'm not going to argue but I believe there are better stallions to support. Re racecourse performances, horses such as Rebel Dane & Solzhenitzen had his measure....whilst he was a nice looking horse, perhaps he didn't reach his full potential? Also, another interesting fact, his unraced 6 yo full sister was offered by Widden at the recent Sydney breeding sale and she made $11,000....

[Henri Jooste 40]

A most interesting sire prospect. Hanui Farm deserve kudos for giving this son of Pentire a commercial opportunity. I doubt that the full potential of Ferlax was ever realised. His class was such that he won his first four races in succession, the fourth being the GR1 Australian Guineas at Flemington. Ferlax never raced beyond a mile in his nine lifetime starts and his manner of racing strongly suggested that he would have been a tour du force at 2000 - 2200m. After the Australian Guineas Ferlax had his finest moment when running on to finish second to Atlantic Jewel in the Memsie Stakes and in the process confirmed his class by beating Dundeal, Green Moon, Fiorente, Happy Trails and Silent Achiever. His 2 length 7th placing as a Spring 4 year old in the GR1 Sir Rupert Clarke Stakes 1400m indicated that he had trained on and upheld his Group One status.

 

At 16.1 1/2  HH Ferlax does not resemble his sire Pentire physically but rather his distaff grand sire Tights. He is the product of the successful affinity between Pentire with the Marscay branch of the Star Kingdom line. At a time when commercial stud farms are rather reluctant to stand stallions who aren't sons of shuttle sires or local champion sires it is refreshing to see a horse such as Ferlax take up duties with a reputable stud. Standing sires such as Ferlax and He's Remarkable (also by Pentire) gives NZ a unique product offering dissimilar to our neighbours and elsewhere in the world where sales catalogues begin to look much the same and lack diversity.  

[biff 2,158]

Whilst I don't agree that Ferlax is good "addition to the ranks", I do agree he provides diversity.  But seriously, does anyone send a mare to a stallion on the basis of running a good 7th! and the supposition the horse seemed to  train-on? I don't believe he is an "upgrade" to the NZ sire ranks

 

NZ has some wonderful stallions at good value, in the past week or so many stud masters have re-evaluated their terms and conditions also, making some very favourable adjustments. Like say, live foal on standing, and payment deferred until 2015.

 

As the conditions for race owners in NZ are so appalling, the days of "experimenting" by hobby breeders/owners (unless millionaires) seem to have passed. Of course, NZ is not alone, Victoria went down the path to mediocrity about 20 years ago and learnt the hard way.  Whilst NZ breeding industry still has good bones, it should continue to seek out young, quality performed individuals, like Shamexpress, for stud duties.  

[fitzy 143]

Interesting comments Henri, but if he looks like Tights then based on that sires performance it would'nt be any help to him.

I actually thought he may have thrown more to Marscay who was around 17 hh - how did he ever win a Slipper ? (answer - cause McGinty was injured  )

 

biff agree with your opinion of Shamexpress.Whilst he only won the one G1 he started against the best every time he went to the track and never shirked. Great combination of top class sires in O'Reilly and VW from a tough family. No weak stallions in his line up in my view.

[Henri Jooste 40]

When I look at Ferlax  the more I like what I see.

 

Biff the way I see it as long as there is room for the small breeder racing will stand a chance of surviving and keep it's appeal. Ferlax certainly fulfils the criteria you mention "young, quality performed individuals" and then one can argue we never saw him race over what should have been his best distances. Ferlax won his first 4 starts including a GROUP One against his own age, he stepped up as a four year old in the Memsie and beat everyone bar Atlantic Jewel. Beaten by him that day were Super Cool and Dundeel. The colateral form stacks up. When we look at the race records of Dundeel and Sacred Falls it is clear that Dundeel had the wood over Sacred Falls, they met three times and each time Dundeel beat Sacred Falls. In the Memsie Stakes, as mentioned above, in third place was Super Cool with Dundeel fourth. Super Cool met Dundeel on four separate occasions and beat him each time.

 

Biff, Ferlax certainly trained on, if one has to dismiss the 2 length 7th place at GR1 level of Ferlax then based on that logic one would have to do the same with Shamexpress who ran 9th and 7th in the King's Stand Stakes and the July Cup ( finishing 5 lengths and 5 1/2 lengths adrift respectively) after his career highlight when he won the Lexus over Moment of Change receiving 5 Kg from the runner up. The collateral form around Temple of Boom would indicate that over sprint distances there was not much between Feralx and Shamexpress. It would appear (to me at least) that Ferlax therefore satisfies the criteria of being a "young, quality performed individual" and deserves the same chance being afforded to Shamexpress and Sacred Falls. These three new sires can only be good for the NZ breeding scene.

 

PS Tights is the dam sire of So You Think.

[fitzy 143]

"PS Tights is the dam sire of So You Think."

 

That's true Henri - but could you name anything else Tights will be remembered for ? (other than heavy boned slow maturing types with bad temperaments)

 

One swallow does not a summer make I think !