Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Totals 805 510 333 887 26 (14) 45 (22) Keeper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Zed was off a $500 service fee.My bet is Zed will out do Indy as Zed's first two crops are 5yo and 4 yo so you comparison is misleading. You are comparing Zed's 4yo and 5 yo who still have racing left in them to Indy Kings 8 yo and 9 yo who have likely all finished racing. Just how dumb do you think joe public are? stakes winners to runners, Zed 3.8% Indy King 3.8% Keeper 5.1% Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Jooste 40 Report post Posted July 11, 2014 I think a breeder is better off going to Zed. By far! Two winners today at Waverley, a much better gauge than Costa Rica..... oops, I mean Dominican Republic. A sireline and broodmare sire line , and dam line that have worked in NZ and Australia. Breeders please check out Arion Pedigrees website. A great way to compare apples with apples. This is really tedious, it does not matter what I say. My views on Zed are on this site for all to see in previous postings so am just providing information in response to Nasrullah’s post who earlier suggested that a comparison with Zed would be comparing apples with apples. Nasrullah you accuse me of a misleading comparison. Ok then, lets to narrow it down to their first crop ? It would not be unreasonable to say that any meaningful changes to results and statistics are unlikely to occur with their respective first crops. Again forumites can draw their own conclusions. Let’s again narrow it down to 2 years olds from the first three crops. All three crops have had the opportunity to race at 2 years. Again forumites may draw their own conclusions. ZED first 3 crops 2yr olds Age Foals Rnrs Wnrs Plcd Wins 2 185 4 0 0 0 INDY KING first 3 crops 2year olds Age Foals Rnrs Wnrs Plcd Wins 2 109 39 9 3 12 Nasrullah I see that you are selective in you representation of statistics using only stakes winners to runners. ZED 3.8% INDY KING 3.8% Nasrullah you conveniently ignored stakes winners to foals. So let’s use just the first two crops because their racing results are exposed and it is unlikely that Zed will improve significantly on those stats (his third crop still has room for improvement). We would not want to mislead forumites now would we? Stakes winners to runners (first two crops) ZED 3.4% INDY KING 5.2% Stakes winners to foals (first two crops) ZED 1.45% INDY KING 3.1% For the record I see this as a pointless exercise, the folk at Grangewilliam and La Stud have got themselves a nice stallion in Zed. This is not comparing apples with apples because these two sires are producing different types of runners which the 2 year old stats above reveal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapu 48 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Henri Do you by any chance have any photo's of Queen Lily Kay or Mindy Queen or the other Black type winners sired by Indy King? I am trying to find out how many of his progeny resemble him. My filly (first NZ crop) looked like her dam as all of that line have but my colt who has gone to Eagle Farm looked like his sire more than his dam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Two things that are staring me right in the face. 1. Ones chances of getting a stakes winner if breeding a mare to either of these stallions and most others is less than 5 %. That means 95% of all their other progeny wont be stakes winners. With the cost of either breeding one or buying one from the yearling sale, not to mention training fees, can we assume that 85 -90% wont be returning a profit. Even the top stallions with higher strike rates (from much higher class of mares) when their service fee is taken into account the above figures would still hold true. Yet we still call these stallions successful. 2. There seems to be so much focus on stallions yet surely the mare has just as much input. The pedigree below shows Indy King's Group One performer is from a mare that is from the same female family that produced A.P.Indy. Without seeing statistics this pattern is quite rare to me. Is there some way that stats could be obtained for this pattern with this stallion. I saw some years ago with another stallion and they were astounding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Again Henri is misleading. Why anyone would try and compare two year old stats from a son of Zabeel is strange. Zed does have a much lower percentage of foals to runners. This is because most have not been tried and not what Henri is pointing out as if they were tried and were not good enough or worth trying with. I think Zed has had three five year old winners in the last three days so proves my point that even his oldest crop has got plenty more to come. I guess breeders have understood that Zed is far better.Zed served 168 mares last year. Indy King 31, with most of the 31 the owner. For the sake of the NZ thoroughbred breeding industry we need to up our game and the more success for anyone and everyone is what we need. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Jooste 40 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Nasrullah as I have said before - I am sure that you have bred some really good horses haven’t you ? Why don’t you tell us about one of them Nasrullah. I would like to talk about something else other than INDY KING. As a breeder for many years share some of your successes with forumites, I am sure that we could all learn so much. I bet that you will evade this invitation with some weasel words and that we will never get a specific name of a horse that you have bred. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Jooste 40 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Henri Do you by any chance have any photo's of Queen Lily Kay or Mindy Queen or the other Black type winners sired by Indy King? I am trying to find out how many of his progeny resemble him. My filly (first NZ crop) looked like her dam as all of that line have but my colt who has gone to Eagle Farm looked like his sire more than his dam. Tapu below are photos, top left Queen Lilly Kay, top right Mindy Queen, bottom left Pleasant Prince, bottom right Indy Joe and bottom centre "wonder filly" Su Majestad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 Not trying to be a snop Henri but I wouldn't waste my time with you if you are going to be as biased or misleading in your arguements as you have been. Great to have a discussion forum but my previous comments above have no doubt caught you out. If you want a challenge then perhaps a new subject/heading to pick which stallion will be the leading first season 3yo sire and 2yo sire would work. 3yo should be broken down into various categories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 Indy King on type is the expression of Blushing Groom, Raise a Native and Klairon (head shape) with a small splattering of Tom Fool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Jooste 40 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 Nasrullah - I bet that you will evade this invitation with some weasel words and that we will never get a specific name of a horse that you have bred. Just one please maestro, what have you got to hide ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 Just to make it interesting Indy King tree.doc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapu 48 Report post Posted July 18, 2014 Thankyou Henri and Beri for photo's, now just have to figure how to get them off posts and on to my IPhoto file. Nasrullah, don't spoil this site with sarcasm - everyone has an opinion and has to be respected for that, not forced into believing someone else's ideas. Henri is right to ask what credentials you have bred to back up yours. Most people on this site are fairly open and free with their interesting posts. A few years ago it was almost a war on the breeding posts - very unpleasant. Keep it light and informative without shafting those game enough to offer an interesting post. Breeder and Swynford 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted February 16, 2016 On 9/07/2014 at 9:28 AM, Henri Jooste said: Here are the stats, forumites can draw their own conclusions Time for an update on above numbers on our NZ bred Zed. I have seen no change with Indy King's first 3 crops but the Zed statistics make good reading. Zed's first 3 crops as of today are below. Compare to above dated 9/7/14 Crop Foals Rnrs Wnrs Wins SW (GW) SWs(GWs) NZ$ 08/09 90 43 26 66 1 (1) 2 (1) 1,151,129 09/10 47 26 16 46 3 (2) 6 (5) 1,350,728 10/11 48 26 14 28 1 1 802,365 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted February 18, 2016 Look....Indy King is a very average stallion that isn't his old mans type. I know that's not what most people who are connected with the horse want to hear, but that's the way it is. He will produce a "good horse" but the genes are not him on type. Someone earlier in this thread why I was pumping up the Tavistocks....it was all based on type. ....Type rules, not fashion, or breeding. The sooner you breeding buffs figure this out the less disappointed you will be. I have yet to meet a breeding buff that is a champion breeder but I've met plenty of champion breeders who are stockmen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 19, 2016 15 hours ago, Berri said: Look....Indy King is a very average stallion that isn't his old mans type. I know that's not what most people who are connected with the horse want to hear, but that's the way it is. He will produce a "good horse" but the genes are not him on type. Someone earlier in this thread why I was pumping up the Tavistocks....it was all based on type. ....Type rules, not fashion, or breeding. The sooner you breeding buffs figure this out the less disappointed you will be. I have yet to meet a breeding buff that is a champion breeder but I've met plenty of champion breeders who are stockmen. Agree with you Berri Indy King may always struggle, but I believe with the right mare I could get a good horse out of him. Because I believe an ounce of blood is worth a ton of bone. And this breeding buff isn't dissappointed, I will explain this further in a different thread but two mares that I selected for my client to suit a particular stallion based on line breeding both sold colts at the Select and Festival sale and they topped each sale. And type wasn't really on the list when the mares were brought. And you say you never met a champion breeder who does't study pedigrees, you must walk around with your eyes closed, Years ago I had quite a few sessions around pedigrees with a mate of yours Sir Patrick and I can tell you he knows far more than what people realize. He has had so much success with horses like (Sir Tristram, Zabeel, Eight Carat and now Tavistock ) that have stout female families that I don't believe it is a coincidence and comes from studying pedigrees. When he first brought Tavistock I remember him saying he is from the same family as Foxbridge I also read years ago, I think it was in an old Bloodhorse or Hoofbeats magazine Nelson Schick "has a passion for Pedigrees' certainly the head man there now Steve is a huge pedigree man I have walked into Trelawnys office many years ago and there were pedigree print outs stacked high. These people all very successful, not saying they don't take type into consideration, we all do, but I don't think it 'rules Breeder 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzy 143 Report post Posted February 19, 2016 Swynford good luck with your Indy King breeding programme. I admire your optimism but wonder if studying alchemy may not prove more successful in the long run .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 19, 2016 Fitzy I don't have an Indy King programme, ( I do have a breeding programme/portfilo ) was just trying to help the guy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 19, 2016 and to add to that I don't have a Zed breeding programme either. But I'm sure there is a lot I could do to help here too..... 4 stakes winners from 95 runners feel sorry for the brood-mare owners ...another 50+ didn't even make it to the track Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) and most of that on a $500 service fee... do the maths on that starting to think that's was too much Edited February 19, 2016 by Swynford Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted February 20, 2016 Firstly thank you Swynford in finally starting to admit Indy King may always struggle. Berri had raised some good points about why he would struggle. Perhaps if he was a Mr Prospector speed dirt horse it might of made some difference but most recent dirt stallions have been very disappointing in NZ. Zed has a low foals to starters ratio because most were not even tried. His winners to runners and stakes winners to runners are now starting to look quite reasonable off the quality of mares he served. Zed's best is yet to come. The year he served 168 mares has that crop now as yearlings. The quality of mares he served that year off his $5,000 service fee was much greater than he had previously served. i don't think Zed will be the next Zabeel but will be a good bread and butter horse. Zed currently sits 10th on the NZ sires list from his 54 runners this season. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 On 19/02/2016 at 2:20 PM, Swynford said: Agree with you Berri Indy King may always struggle, but I believe with the right mare I could get a good horse out of him. Because I believe an ounce of blood is worth a ton of bone. And this breeding buff isn't dissappointed, I will explain this further in a different thread but two mares that I selected for my client to suit a particular stallion based on line breeding both sold colts at the Select and Festival sale and they topped each sale. And type wasn't really on the list when the mares were brought. And you say you never met a champion breeder who does't study pedigrees, you must walk around with your eyes closed, Years ago I had quite a few sessions around pedigrees with a mate of yours Sir Patrick and I can tell you he knows far more than what people realize. He has had so much success with horses like (Sir Tristram, Zabeel, Eight Carat and now Tavistock ) that have stout female families that I don't believe it is a coincidence and comes from studying pedigrees. When he first brought Tavistock I remember him saying he is from the same family as Foxbridge I also read years ago, I think it was in an old Bloodhorse or Hoofbeats magazine Nelson Schick "has a passion for Pedigrees' certainly the head man there now Steve is a huge pedigree man I have walked into Trelawnys office many years ago and there were pedigree print outs stacked high. These people all very successful, not saying they don't take type into consideration, we all do, but I don't think it 'rules I think you have failed to read what I have said. I said "I have yet to meet a breeding buff that is a champion breeder but I've met plenty of champion breeders who are stockmen". Both Patrick and Nelson know their pedigrees unbelievably well (and Steve Till) but are not breeding buffs. They are first and foremost stockmen who really know their pedigrees. People like you are breeding buffs who put forward theories that are interesting but until you can say you've disproportionately bred mares to produce group one winners, then you cannot be classed as a champion breeder. I'm just stating fact. If you do, then I will prick my ears forward. Ashoka 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 26, 2016 my theories have bred Group One winners and have been disproportionately way ahead of most stallion statistics Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 26, 2016 sorry all stallion statistics and your ears isn't what is most important to me, i love to help others WIN been told what goes out there comes back and today very happy with the planned matings we have done from both a type and performance point of view Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swynford 121 Report post Posted February 27, 2016 Berri ...just been watching Hall Of Fame night on Trackside and thought it was very interesting about Eight Carat perhaps you should watch it. Maybe you where there Sir Patrick stated that he was very keen on the Bruce Lowe ' # 9 family' just like what I promote He brought Eight Carat on her pedigree within hours not on type Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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