Indy King first winner

[Swynford 121]

Simply speaking Berri you are ignoring the line breeding patterns that you know very little about. And to my mind they will have a huge imput into the mating. 

 

Told you about my position on the challenge. read back if you are confused. 

 

For some one who has won a Melbourne Cup and a Great Northern Steeplechase (the ultimate to me in staying races,).

whats your problem with stayers, you appear ungrateful for your ultimate thrill.

[Berri 2,131]

Not ungrateful at all...on the contrary I absolutely love staying races and there should be a better program for them. Speed is cheap....if you're a purest.

I'm not confused....I simply think you don't have the mojo to stick your neck out and gamble that you can reliably pick them. You MUST have already picked a few so theoretically you should be able to pick three names off a postage stamp. So I include the Indy King filly above as one of your selections?

As for breeding stock, you can either make your own wine or go into the shop and buy it. If you decide to make it, then you have the influence over what variety you grow, what fert you put on, when you pick it, how you process it and when you bottle it. You then get great pleasure from drinking it.

Horses is like that. If you know what you're doing and how you want to do it, then you have the reigns in your hands. It's all yours to do.....and the pleasure if it works!!!

And by the way...I hope Indy King works, I really do. For me there are too many unknown probabilities so I am a sit and wait.

That's why you breed horses.

[hummels 7]

If youre a sit and wait then why do you sing the praises of Pour Moi and Tavistock? They are hardly proven?

[Henri Jooste 40]

That's an interesting choice Swynford.

By a stallion who was unsound (At $2.2m Stronach had to do something with him - who is out of a mare who couldn't get warm until she was five), out of a mare by Almutawakel out of a Centro (slow horses) daughter of Limitless (Brisbane Cup winner) who was by Sir Tristram out of a Zamazaan mare.

Shame New Zealand doesn't have a good staying race pattern program anymore. Do we add this offspring into your selection bag?

 

Berri, Swynford has put forward paper mating, it does not as yet exist. 

 

As to be expected Berri you have done your homework, firstly you are correct on the purchase price, however the observations  around INDY KING’S soundness and the racing maturity of his dam Queena need some context.  INDY KING was injured pulling up after a morning gallop after stepping in a hole and tore a tendon. He had shown genuine ability in work against the very best of Frank Stronachs horses, enough to be given a berth at Adena Springs Florida. Stronach has at any one time at least half a dozen horses that are bred in the purple that can be pressed into stallion service so the decision to stand the unraced INDY KING was not a random decision.  Retired to Adena Springs around the same time was Olmodaver a graded stakes winning son of A.P. Indy.

 

Queena the dam of INDY KING was a late starter, she raced only at 4 and 5 years, why I do not know, I think that it is a long bow to assume that it was because she was a slow maturing type. As one would expect of a daughter of Mr Prospector she showed speed from the outset and had the class to race against and beat the best of her sex at a mile. Queena  won 10 races from 6f through to 9 furlongs (average winning distance 7.05 furlongs) . She had a busy season at 4 years contesting  nine races and won 5 (four in succession) including the GR2 First Flight Handicap over 7 furlongs. As a five year old she raced eight times winning five in succession including the GR1 Ballerina Stakes (7 f),GR1 Maskette Stakes (8f) and GR1 Ruffian Stakes (8 ½  furlongs ). These efforts earned Queena an Eclipse Award and she was the top rated older mare in the USA in 1990.

 

La Reina the full sister to INDY KING did race at 2 years , four times in fact. On her debut over 6 furlongs she ran second, she then won her next start over 7 furlongs by 5 lengths before winning  the GR3 Tempted Stakes over a mile. Three weeks later La Reina ran second in the GR2 Demoiselle Stakes over 1700m. Half brother Brahms raced in Ireland as a 2 year old where he won over 6f on his second start and then ran second to Giant’s Causeway in the E.B.F. Futurity Stakes GR3 over 7f and second in the GR1 Dewhurst Stakes(7f) behind Distant Music at Newmarket.

 

Grandam Too Chic, by champion 2 year old Blushing Groom, only raced at 3 years winning 4 races from 8 starts, mainly over a mile culminating in the GR1 Maskette Stakes at her final race day appearance.  Too Chic equalled the course record at Belmont over 8 ½ furlongs. Too Chic was rated the 5^th best filly of her generation (17000 filly foal crop). Too Chic also bred Chic Shirine ,GR1 Ashland Stakes 8 ½ furlongs , a full sister to Queena .

 

Getting back to Queena  a late start should not be confused with slow maturity and dourness, Queena and all her immediate relatives displayed racing ability of the highest class over 7 furlongs and a mile capable of winning at 2 years and training on. 

 

More to follow........  

[Tapu 48]

I see that Queen Lily Kay won another well paid race in USA this week

[Nasrullah 180]

Am new to this blog but have been breeding a while.

 

Stakes winners to runners or foals is a good guide but it also must be remembered some stallion work better in some countries than others.

 

Indy King is hardly the best AP Indy around and Indy Kings own half brother Brahms by 'international ' proven sire of sires Danzig has been disappointing

 

I accept that there are sires that start off on cheap service fees that have upside but I don't think Indy King is one.

 

Henri has honestly point out that he has a connection or works for the owner of Indy King. I commend his honesty but can you imagine was this site would be like if it was the owners of the stallions pushing there own?

 

 

I feel that the $3000 to $8000 service fee range has some great value whether that be at the proven mark or unproven.  

[Davey1 28]

"I feel that the $3000 to $8000 service fee range has some great value whether that be at the proven mark or unproven"

 

What are these sires for those of us on limited budgets?

[Forrest 78]

"I feel that the $3000 to $8000 service fee range has some great value whether that be at the proven mark or unproven"

 

What are these sires for those of us on limited budgets?

In that range, I think SHOWCASING is great value at $7500,given he has had 10 winners already in europe and is either leading or running second on the first season sires list,has also had a number of placegetters and a blacktype performer.

If he can have a similar impact in Australia and or NZ in his first season, could prove to be a bargain.

[Ruby 160]

Davey1 I think Keeper, Bachelor Duke, Battle Paint all provide good value

[Henri Jooste 40]

Comments by Oppenheimer in 2010.....

Pleasant Prince (Indy King) and Ice Box both made strong late rallies in the Florida Derby and only a nose separated them at the finish. Both have the look of late-maturing runners so typical for the A.P. Indys. Pleasant Prince to date has won only 1 race from 7 starts, though he is now G1-placed and Derby bound. He did win a one-mile maiden special at 2 last year, and this year he’s been raced exclusively at 1 1/8 miles and has the racing style, pedigree, and feel of a stayer.

He’s out of the Pleasant Tap mare Archduchess and was bred by Adena Springs, which consigned him to the 2008 OBS August sale where his current owners, Ken and Sarah Ramsey, purchased him for $30,000.

Career Statistics:

•Starts: 29

•Firsts: 5

•Seconds: 4

•Thirds: 4

•Earnings: $696,483

This is probably Indy King's best progeny based on ratings

Analysis by Crop in all countries

Crop Foals Starters Winners Wins SW

2005 24 18 15 39 1

2006 40 28 20 68 1

2007 42 20 7 13 0

2008 18 0 0 0 0

124 66 42 120 2

% of foals 53% 34% 2%

Sorry boys...I don't see it. It doesn't matter how small a breeder you are, there are ways of helping your odds and this probably isn't one of them. That's not to say that this horse won't produce a good one...just that the odds are against you and you've got to know what type you're about to breed. That's why I challenge the likes of Swynford. If he was that good, he'd be a top breeder. In my humble opinion, his read of the suggested mating produces a late maturing stayer....but you've always got to remember, genetics say that the horse comes from the dominant gene....so any mating COULD throw to a fast maturing Mr Prospector gene....but the odds are not stacked in your favour of that happening. If he was a short coupled sprinting type then I'd say your chances are better....but he's not....knee half way down his leg, staying type (typical AP Indy)

Still waiting for your selections Swynford....

 

INDY KING may be one of those sires that when one looks back at past issues of the stallion register in 10 to 20 years time you would pause and wonder “what were breeders thinking ! How come they could not appreciate the pedigree and grab the opportunity ? “

 

As a specimen his stallion register photo does not do him justice. In the flesh he is an impressive individual with beautiful length and balance, INDY KING has a masculine quality head,  a good length of rein through the neck, and shoulder. He is strong  through  the gaskins and hocks, with great length from hip to hock. Though leggy upfront he has good bone with correct knees and pasterns. INDY KING has a kind equable temperament which he passes on to his progeny.

 

Make no mistake INDY KING is a sire capable of breeding quality horses over all distances. He is certainly able to breed two year olds and sprinters as well as milers and middle distance horses. It is worth noting that Indy Joe his first runner from his first US crop won on debut over 6 furlongs by 7 ¼ lengths and would go on to become INDY KING’s first stakes winner at three years. Indy O from that same crop ran third on debut over 400m, he broke his maiden as a 2 yr old by 12 ¾ lengths over 6 furlongs.  Indy O an out and out sprinter is a winner of 6 races from 5 ½ f to 6 f. From his second small crop INDY KING sired the good filly Mindy Queen who won three races at 2 years over 6 furlongs, each by a margin exceeding 6 lengths ! At three years Mindy Queen won another 5 races, three over 6 furlongs and twice over a mile including the Assinaboia Oak (L) in Canada by 9 ¼ lengths. At 4 years she won twice over 6 furlongs including the listed Prairie Rose Stakes.

 

Perhaps his most brilliant filly of all was his daughter Su Majestad who raced in the Dominican Republic where she was rated the Champion imported 2 and 3 year old filly. Admittedly the opposition in the Dominican Republic is weak but it is manner and authority of those wins that were something to behold. Su Majestad would thrash her older rivals of both sexes as a 2 year old by up to 20 lengths. I have seen video of her racing over 1400m where she has come from 20 lengths off the pace and win easing up under a tight hold, conversely she could race on the pace and streak away to win by up to 20 lengths !

 

Pleasant Prince who was reviewed by Bill Openheim in your article above was a very, very good horse. The review  was an attempt to talk up the merits  the Kentcky Derby hopefuls  as possible staying types (by US standards). Openheim had it right in his assessment of Pleasant Prince as a fast stayer. To date neither Bernardini nor Congrats have been able to produce a 3 year old capable of a performance as good as his in the Florida Derby GR1. Bernardini has been represented in the Florida Derby (To Honor And Serve 3^rd and Stay Thirsty 7^th). Pleasant Prince was ruined because his owner was hell bent to qualify him for the Kentucky Derby which has an earnings based entry qualification and rushed him straight into the Blue Grass Stakes GR1  (ran 7^th)and Cliff’s Edge Derby Trial GR3 (ran 3^rd) after the Florida Derby. He did not qualify for the Kentucky Derby, Ice Box who beat him by a pixel in the Florida Derby did, Ice Box next raced in the Kentucky Derby and ran second. Pleasant  Prince nevertheless went on to annex the Ohio Derby  and Oklahoma Derby before lining up in Zenyatta’s Breeders Cup Classic GR1 where she tasted defeat for the first time.

 

In New Zealand Indy King has only had one starter and that was King’s Secret who has won over 800m as a 2 year old at just his second start.

 

INDY KING has achieved these results consistently from limited numbers and modest mares. He has shown that he can produce horses as good as any other son of A.P. Indy at stud anywhere in the world.

[Berri 2,131]

Henry....Queena...Shin soreness, back muscle problems. cracked knee then she was four....talked with my mate Peter Bradley who used to manage Overbrook. Knew the mare well. If that isn't maturity problems I don't know what is. She had ability from the get go which she proved but she was a late maturing filly.

Brahms was a Danzig so you'd expect him to follow suit to have form at 2. Very disappointing stallion though. I did a bit of research on the family.

Sorry to be negative on Indy King but I was compelled to make a comment because Swynford was challenged to supply three yearlings based on pedigree and ended up talking about an Indy King mating over an Almutawakel mare that he said was a good mating. I also did some research on his progeny as I will always take an interest in a new blood stallion. I like unconventional pedigree lines...I bought Deputy Governor for Jim and he was by Master Willie for heavens sake. But he was a VERY good High Line representative if you know what you're looking at. Jim bought him unseen because I convinced him of the trait I thought was present.

I have seen AP Indy in the flesh and maybe 150-200 of his progeny so I sort of know what they're like. I've also seen his best sire sons so you get a feel for what they should look like. So when Swynford mentioned Indy King, I thought great...another stallion. Then I was mentally challenged by the prospect of Indy King being used as stallion. So I'm sorry about being negative but facts are facts.

As for my interest in Pour Moi and Tavistock, they both interest me because we lost Mont Jeu to Australia. Both were very good horses by that great stallion....one a Derby winner and the other a sprinter/ miler. It's much like Sir TRistram....Marauding (Golden Slipper) vs Grosvenor (Derby) vs Zabeel (miler). When Patrick was being mentally challenged to stand a son of Sir Tristram, the things I said were that all the leading studs stood sons of their best stallions (or mares) as they knew the breed and that they should go after the pedigree in respect of race performance. Zabeel was very like Sir Tristram on type, had the best pedigree and won at an Australian distance (miler).

I publically marked Showcasing because be is a type. I did the same with Ifraaj and really like Rip Van Winkle's progeny on type. If you ask a number of stud masters that I prattle onto from time to time you will find I've been talking about horses called Siyouni (Pivotal) and Maxios (Monsun) and Bated Breath (Dansili). They are types that NZ could well do with for our future breeding bench.

But these are my opinions only....I could very well be very wrong....because after all this is the horse industry

[Henri Jooste 40]

Here is a photo of an Indy King 2 year old filly taken in February when being broken in. The filly is out of the staying Balmerino mare Colmerino and is a half sister to the stakes winner Figure of Speech. She will race in the spring.

[Nasrullah 180]

Henri -the horse in the photo looks nice enough.

You are incorrect or not being upfront on your comment that Indy King can produce a horse as good as any other son of AP Indy anywhere in the world.

Even a quick look let alone an in depth look on Arion Pedigrees website shows that Bernardini and Mineshaft are in a league way above Indy King. We would not want to mislead the reader who does not know any better or who doesn't check or doesn't know how to check.

Or are you say as good meaning how they look etc have four legs but generally I think we are talking about progeny ability.

Readers have no doubt heard of Boban or Ruud Awakening both by Bernadini.

To quote a horse that was a champion in the Dominican Republic gives no sense of relative quality. I could name the champion from the Chatham Island annual races in NZ if they are still held and say he won his race by 20 lengths.

I would query a stakes race in recognized countries like Argentina let alone one that does not show up on the main Arion Pedigrees or Thoroughbred Internet websites.

The international graded stakes or group race might give someone confidence.

No different here in NZ. When a race gets weaker the race gets a warning and can be down graded to a lesser standard etc.

[Henri Jooste 40]

My BS detector says Colin Whightman is back again.

[Berri 2,131]

I couldn't tell whether that's a good looking filly or not. Either the person on board is big or the filly is small...that's all I can see. Can we see her standing up so that we can have a proper look?

[fitzy 143]

Henri are you now saying Nasrullah is Whiteman......... I thought you accused me of that.

Did he say something you didnt like?

[Henri Jooste 40]

Fitzy where have I said that Nasrullah is Whightman ?

Are you saying that the poster Nasrullah is not Whightman because you are ?

What are you saying ? Easy to sort this out just give us your real name.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Berri here is a photo of the filly in December soon after arriving at the breakers. She is now 16hh.

[Nasrullah 180]

No I am not.

 

Henri reply to my comments? Are you embarrassed?

 

Dominican Republic..... wow a champion in the Dominican Republic folks!! 

 

Could of been a champion in Fiji or New Caledonia or even my back yard.

Next thing you will tell us is she broke the track record time but the time was recorded by an old hour glass.

 

Henri have you ever heard of Boban? Trained in Aus by Chris Waller?

 

Or Ruud Awakening? Bernardini their sire was a serious racehorse .

 

Breeders have far better proven options around or unproven with upside.

 

I said Henri was honest for saying he is on the Indy King payroll but he doesn't have to mislead the average breeder.

 

Berri has listed the stats and they don't read that impressively.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Let’s make one thing clear, there is no intention on my part to mislead anyone or misrepresent here. We are all guests on Racecafe and should behave accordingly. I approach it as a whole bunch of us enthusiasts getting together at the bar at Karaka and talking about horses and pedigrees.

 

I find it somewhat bemusing that for someone who has just joined the forum you are looking for an opportunity to get scornful and accusative straight away. I will try and answer questions openly no matter how tedious.

 

I will repeat my statement “He has shown that he can produce horses as good as any other son of A.P. Indy at stud anywhere in the world.”  INDY KING’s son Pleasant Prince is proof of this, his performances at three years old bear this out. The GR1 Florida Derby (1800m) is a good yard stick for this assertion. An important lead up contest for the Kentucky Derby it has been dominated in recent years by the progeny of A. P. Indy and his sire sons. INDY KING  (average foal crop of 25) has never been afforded the mare numbers or quality of many of the leading sire sons of A.P. INDY, his breeding has come through by his ability to sire a horse of the calibre of Pleasant Prince.

 

Study this picture below, in it you will see the two best American classic performers from the 3 year old crop sired by all sons of A.P. Indy foaled in 2007, Ice Box (by Pulpit) and Pleasant Prince (by Indy King). The race was run on a fast track on a clear day in a time of 1:49.19.

 

Bernardini has shown that like many sons of A.P. Indy he can sire very good horses. Few sires have been afforded the opportunities that Bernardini has. To get a perspective of exactly what an opportunity Bernardini has had here is a statement made by Charlie Boden who is the Darley America Head of Sales “He has bred a full book every year he has been at stud. His first year he had 275 mares submitted in the first week after his retirement was announced,” he said. “He attracted the finest book of mares ever bred to a first-year stallion with 64 Grade 1 winners or producers in his first group”

 

 

From that first incredible book of mares Bernardini was represented by two runners in the Florida Derby run the year after Ice Box’s. The race was run in near identical conditions, fast track, clear skies, the winner Dialed In (by Mineshaft) won in a time of 1;50.07.  Third placed 7 lengths adrift was To Honor and Serve(by Bernardini) and seventh beaten 17 ½ lengths was Stay Thirsty (by Bernardini). These are the only two representatives by Bernardini to date that have raced in the Florida Derby to date. I think that this example shows that INDY KING is capable of breeding a horse as good as any son of A.P. Indy.

 

As for the Su Majestad all I can say is lighten up !! If a filly won a maiden race at Waimate by 20 lengths any reasonable racing fan would talk about it. If she in the process won in record time and repeated such performances everyone would sit up and take notice. For heavens sake all the studs talk about their trial winners especially ones that win by wide margins. We will never know how good or not so good Su Majestad may really have been, she caused a stir with her performances and was said to have been the best filly ever to race in that part of the world.

 

So if it makes you feel good then go ahead and put the boot in, I am sure that you have bred some really good fillies haven’t you ?  Why don’t you tell us about one of them Nasrullah. I would like to talk about something else other than INDY KING. As a breeder for many years share some of your successes with forumites, I am sure that we could all learn so much. I bet that you will evade this invitation with some weasel words and that we will never get a specific name of a horse that you have bred.

 

 

[Nasrullah 180]

I don't agree with you and the stats show that.

He does not produce horses as good as any other son of Indy King anywhere in the world.

I reckon Waimate would likely be 20 lengths better than the Dominican Republic.

Studs talk up trial winners in early days of a stallion to hype up breeders so can't understand you giving Su Majested.

So would you rate the Chatham Island Cup winner?

I have not put the boot into you personally but I can't agree with your comments.

When I post a comment and you don't agree, go for it.

I think a breeder is better off going to Zed. By far! Two winners today at Waverley, a much better gauge than Costa Rica..... oops, I mean Dominican Republic. A sireline and broodmare sire line , and dam line that have worked in NZ and Australia.

Breeders please check out Arion Pedigrees website. A great way to compare apples with apples.

[Berri 2,131]

I wouldn't go that far Nasrullah. What tends to happen is that horses with extraordinary ability pop up all over the place by all sorts of breeds. So bagging Dominican Republic is not such a smart move in such a broad manner. I can't remember the name of it but quite a few years back a bloke called Emmanuel de Seroux bought a filly from the Dominica who had won 8 from 8 (if I remember correctly). He bought it for Allen Paulson and it went on to become a champion in America. I can't be bothered looking up what its name was.

The rest of the World would probably have looked at Bonecrusher and Sunline in much the same light as you are suggesting, before they achieved their own championships. Be mindful that good horses come from anywhere.

[fitzy 143]

My BS detector says Colin Whightman is back again.

That's what you posted Henri in answer to Nasrullah. Obviously as reliable and factual as many of your other comments.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Here are the stats, forumites can draw their own conclusions

 

[Nasrullah 180]

Keeper

 

Commenced stud duties in New Zealand in 2002

Third on NZ Sire List in 2010-11.

 

Analysis by Crop

Crop Foals Runners Winners Wins SWnrs(GWnrs) SWins(GWins) NZ$ 03/04 97 79 59 179 5 (2) 5 (2) 8,378,595 04/05 66 49 30 81 3 (3) 9 (6) 2,745,840 05/06 67 56 45 143 5 (1) 9 (1) 4,838,052 2006 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 06/07 94 76 55 161 6 (5) 11 (9) 7,395,903 07/08 57 38 18 62 2 (2) 3 (3) 2,265,596 08/09 109 80 55 139 1 3 3,759,540 09/10 102 65 42 87 3 4 2,747,548 10/11 105 55 26 31 0 0 570,864 11/12 107 12 3 4 1 (1) 1 (1) 99,820 Totals 805 510 333 887 26 (14) 45 (22) 32,801,758