Indy King first winner

[Abernant 37]

I see Indy King had is first winner in New Zealand with Kings Secret trained and own same people as Vespa. good start one starter one winner

[Henri Jooste 40]

It was an ideal start for Indy King in New Zealand.  The winner King’s Secret has had a bit of a reputation around him for a while now, since being broken in.  Reports out of the stable suggest that there is very little between King’s Secret and Vespa in work and the co -lateral racing form around Steel Rose and Silk Belt confirms this. King’s Secret is bred to be a classic type with looks to match, that he was able to win over 800m bodes well for his future, the runner up Xcuses Xcuses was solidly supported to follow up on her recent 7 length jump out romp, whilst her stable companion Lenin The Brown who ran third in the race is a handy sort.

[Abernant 37]

I see he has no inbreeding through five x cross.  In America most of his winners have Mr Prospector or Blushing Groom cross

[Forrest 78]

That is a great start for any new sire but in particular for a stallion who did not serve big numbers.

 

p.s mrs ed

      hope we are not going too over the top for your liking

[Henri Jooste 40]

Abernant  you will find that Indy King is a versatile sire in terms of compatibility with a wide spectrum of bloodlines.  The mating that produced King’s Secret was a planned one and infuses a number  key ancestors further back.  As you mention Indy King has sired good winners to mares returning strains of Mr. Prospector and Blushing Groom eg stakes winners Mindy Queen and Queen Lily Kay. He has also bred very good horses devoid of Mr Prospector and Blushing Groom bloodlines, the likes of Pleasant Prince, Indy Joe and Su Majestad.

 

To date he has not served a mare by Stravinsky whose pedigree contains both Mr. Prospector as well as Blushing Groom. As one would expect he has shown a strong affinity with mares carrying strains of La Troienne, in New Zealand mares by O’Reilly and Towkay look ideal consorts.

 

One of the more interesting  pedigrees from his first New Zealand crop is a colt out of Kiwi Summer (by Desert Sun). Kiwi Summer won twice at two years and is an own sister to Komplete Kaos the dam of GR1 winner Rockdale. This colt is bred 3x3 to Seattle Slew and his half brother Great Charmer. Their dam My Charmer is intensely inbred to La Troienne the most influential mare in the modern North American stud book. 

 

[Abernant 37]

That’s interesting Henri because I have a winning Chinese Dragon Mare who could go to stud next year. Chinese Dragon by Stravinsky and she is out of an Oregan mare the same as Kings Secret.

 

You say King Secret was bred to be a classic type, as a small breeder it is sometimes hard to see in what way the mating was trying to achieve this ?

 

.It is the same when you go to the sales unless you do a lot a study on the pedigree it is hard to see if it a random mating or planned and what the plan was?

 

 Do you think that most mating’s should be planned in some way, or follow fashionable and commercial sires to maximise returns.

 

 

[Henri Jooste 40]

Abernant you pose some interesting questions, as no one else has responded here are some of my thoughts.

 

A “classic horse” is how one would describe a horse that at three years has enough speed to contest against their own age over the Guineas distance(1600m) and as the season extends display stamina to contest at a middle distance up to a mile and a half (2450m). In days gone by a true classic 3 year old would by seasons end also be a contender for the ST Leger (2800m). The Derby distance of 2450m is considered the true “classic” distance and these horses tend to be well balanced, stand over a bit of ground, have a good length of rein and a shoulder angle of 45 degrees. The emergence of Northern Dancer has changed/challenged the typical phenotype of the classic horse.

A “classic” pedigree would be one where the immediate forebears are classic type racehorses or very closely related to classic horses. It is important to appreciate that speed goes hand in hand with class in the classic horse so when breeding with classic types one does not necessarily compromise on the speed element. My interpretation of a sprinter is that this is a horse with severe stamina limitations. The Quarter Horse breed needs constant infusion of the Thoroughbred to be able to maintain its speed and integrity. The best classic horses have the speed to win at 2 years and later on are capable of running sectionals as fast as any sprinter.

 

Regrettably today the vast majority of breeders are in the business of breeding a cheque.  Very few if any have a specific long term breeding program or approach. Commerciality ensures that good stock by default are the base material for most breeding activities and this keeps the business ticking over and the outcomes mostly ordinary. The most successful breeder of all was Frederico Tesio and he had a distinct breeding program that focussed on the classic racehorse and he would use what he deemed were the best stallions to this end regardless of their commerciality. Tesio also trained his stock which aided him in his selection process. In modern times the Aga Khan is one of only a handful of breeders that has a breeding program in place. The Aga Khan has reverse shuttled Redoute’s Choice at age 17, why ? Because he is thinking long term and strategically, he wants to infuse the blood and attributes of Redoutes Choice into his stud’s classic European gene pool.

[fitzy 143]

Henri I must say I find your last paragraph above to be total garbage.

First and foremost successful breeders must strive to breed an athletic horse with soundness and temperament adequate to achieve success on the racetrack. When these attributes are combined over time you end up with superior stallions and mares. For your own illogical reasons you choose to define this as "fashion".

 

The reality is that sires like O'Reilly, Savabeel etc are fashionable because they have more success on the racetrack that 95% of their competitors. Breeders who try to breed the next Bonecrusher, Sunline etc by using cheap stallions and obscure "line brreding" theories are doomed to failure.

 

As a yearling buyer if i see a yearling by a sire which has produced runners, from a dam sire and grandam sire which were successful experience tells me that this is a better bet than a yearling thats "line bred" but by a stallion which couldnt run out of site on a dark night!

 

As to your comments re the Aga Khan one could only presume that he is tired of breeding slow maturing European plodders and wants to inject speed and precociousness into his broodmares.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Fitzy can you please tell me exactly which part is garbage ?

 

Firstly I did not use the term fashion and where did I “define” fashion ?

 

There is no mention of “cheap sires” or line breeding in the paragraph or anywhere else in the dialogue. Please don’t make up or attribute your perceptions as those of mine.

 

The discussion was around classic horses and the explanations for the benefit of Abernant who from his questions one would assume is relatively new to the breeding industry.  

[Breeder 609]

Fitzy

 

 If I could achieve 10% of the success that the Aga Khan has I would be " over the moon" --in fact 1% would be OK.

 Everyone has their own ideas of what the best way to go is. There is no magic formula because if there was everyone would be into it.

 Those who believe in line breeding or variations of it are not confined to using "non commercial" stallions --you only have to look at the catalogues to see that.

[fermoy 226]

Henri I must say I find your last paragraph above to be total garbage.

First and foremost successful breeders must strive to breed an athletic horse with soundness and temperament adequate to achieve success on the racetrack. When these attributes are combined over time you end up with superior stallions and mares. For your own illogical reasons you choose to define this as "fashion".

 

The reality is that sires like O'Reilly, Savabeel etc are fashionable because they have more success on the racetrack that 95% of their competitors. Breeders who try to breed the next Bonecrusher, Sunline etc by using cheap stallions and obscure "line brreding" theories are doomed to failure.

 

As a yearling buyer if i see a yearling by a sire which has produced runners, from a dam sire and grandam sire which were successful experience tells me that this is a better bet than a yearling thats "line bred" but by a stallion which couldnt run out of site on a dark night!

 

As to your comments re the Aga Khan one could only presume that he is tired of breeding slow maturing European plodders and wants to inject speed and precociousness into his broodmares.

so tell us then how much you have spent buying yearlings and how much stake money they have won?

"cheap stallions"  or non commercial sires such as Desert Sun,Pag Asa,Crossways and Blarney Kiss never stopped champions like Sunline,Bonecrusher,Veandercross and Kiwi did they?

[fitzy 143]

No Fermoy cheap stallions dont stop them siring good horses its just that the % who achieve success is so much lower.

The point you seem to miss is that those who breed these horses are for the most part destined to lose money on thier breeding activities, and then they complain about it on forums like this.

 

As to my yearling record at last count I have purchased 24 yearlings, 23 of which have raced and won. The 24th was returned to the breeder due to an injury not disclosed at the sales. I have no idea of the stakeswinnings of the winners, most have been sold as trial or race winners. Prices have varied between (approx) $3k and $30k.

[Abernant 37]

we understand that buying a O'Reilly or  Savabeel gives you a better chance of having a winner but you say your yearling cost you $3k to $30k  At thePremier Yearling Sale the lowest sales price for O,Reily was $50K and Savabeel was $47k becuase the are proven stallions.

 

Sir tristam stud at $2k when he first went to stud so if a stallion has a low price to start with doesnt make him a dud until proven otherwise on the track ?. If Kings Secret wins the sires in a weeks time what would we make of that.

 

 

[fitzy 143]

Abernant the yearlings referred to have been bought over a 20 + year period. However if my memory is correct the top class O'Reilly filly Hera this season (not one of my buys) cost $28k as a yearling 2 years ago so my points are entirely valid.

 

Sir T's fee in 1976 was representative of the industry at that time. Along with perhaps only Volksraad & Centaine he would really be the only stallion in my time who started in the basement and got to the Penthouse. There are a few others like Straight Strike etc who did incredibly well from humble beginnings but could not be put in the same class.

 

I hope Kings Secret does perform well, but one swallow does not a summer make. A quick look throught the winners of the Manwatu Sires over the past 20 odd years would be proof of that. How many other winners have there been like Roys Boy and Nacho Man? Where are there sires now and how many more SW's did they sire?

[Henri Jooste 40]

I think we have uncovered another Colin Whightman folks !!!

[pablo 0]

Abernant the yearlings referred to have been bought over a 20 + year period. However if my memory is correct the top class O'Reilly filly Hera this season (not one of my buys) cost $28k as a yearling 2 years ago so my points are entirely valid.

 

Sir T's fee in 1976 was representative of the industry at that time. Along with perhaps only Volksraad & Centaine he would really be the only stallion in my time who started in the basement and got to the Penthouse. There are a few others like Straight Strike etc who did incredibly well from humble beginnings but could not be put in the same class.

 

I hope Kings Secret does perform well, but one swallow does not a summer make. A quick look throught the winners of the Manwatu Sires over the past 20 odd years would be proof of that. How many other winners have there been like Roys Boy and Nacho Man? Where are there sires now and how many more SW's did they sire?

[Abernant 37]

Worldwide - All countries, calendar year

 

Year Rnrs Wnrs Runs Wins SW (GW) SWs(GWs) NZ$ 2007 7 3 23 3 0 0 232,235 2008 36 13 171 23 1 1 654,212 2009 54 34 390 63 1 1 1,144,289 2010 60 35 485 74 2(1) 3(1) 1,755,063 2011 48 28 452 57 1 1 875,658 2012 35 18 304 40 0 0 749,797 2013 30 17 281 29 1 1 428,582 2014 13 3 42 3 0 0 40,386 Totals 104 73 2148 292 4(1) 7(1) 5,880,222

 

This is not (one swallow does not a summer make) kings secret is his first NZ starter

 

[Berri 2,131]

Fritzy...the Aga does sometimes breed for the second generation ie. he's trying to breed a filly that he eventually wants to mate with some other horse that he has in mind. So he does not only breed to race. That is what I think Henri was trying to say.

[fermoy 226]

No Fermoy cheap stallions dont stop them siring good horses its just that the % who achieve success is so much lower.

The point you seem to miss is that those who breed these horses are for the most part destined to lose money on thier breeding activities, and then they complain about it on forums like this.

 

As to my yearling record at last count I have purchased 24 yearlings, 23 of which have raced and won. The 24th was returned to the breeder due to an injury not disclosed at the sales. I have no idea of the stakeswinnings of the winners, most have been sold as trial or race winners. Prices have varied between (approx) $3k and $30k.

so if its only 24 horses over 20 odd years it shouldnt take too long for you to add up what you spent on them and find out what stakes they have won,surely?

[fitzy 143]

I think we have uncovered another Colin Whightman folks !!!

 

How pathetic Henri - is that the best you can come up with?

 

I think any reasonable person would conclude that comments like this just demonstrate your lack of knowledge as to the realities of thoroughbred racing and breeding. I just hope that not too many readers are mislead by your crackpot theories and comments.

[Davey1 28]

I for one have always enjoyed Henri's posts in the breeding section in what other wise can be a very boring part of Race Café. And yes I have been involved in the realities of thoroughbreds unfortunately most of the time and have experienced enough of life to know what a crackpot theory looks like!

 

Henri & Fitzy can you both keep debating the issue and future ones it is interesting and stop the personal approach.

 

Cheers

 

Richard Davey

[Breeder 609]

Well put Richard.

It always amazes me that there is so much criticism of breeding ideas in thoroughbred breeding when in most other areas of animal and plant breeding, genetics has very strong footing.

[Henri Jooste 40]

Thanks for the comments Davey1.

Fitzy I don't know what your motive or agenda is but you seem hell bent on having a go at me. You have stated that what I contributed here (last paragraph post #7) is garbage , I have asked you to state what exactly you thought was garbage and have yet to get an answer from you. Furthermore you have escalated your attack by claiming that I espouse "crackpot theories and comments".

I will therefore ask you to provide examples of exactly what garbage, crackpot theories and comments I have made.

[Abernant 37]

Indy king had 3 starters in usa over the last 4 days and all won including stakes winner Queen Lilly Kay and one starter in seoul for a winner taking his progeny earnings over $6,000,000 from 105 starters.

But no up dates on dalacine farms web site and this is not the only stud web site that  stays the same.

In these testing times promoting sires and racing should be a must. i have a indy king filly and others by different sires and like to be kept upto date from the studs

[Henri Jooste 40]

Point taken, the site will be updated overnight and regularly thereafter, good reports around the traps re those who do have them in training.