RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Toblerone

Harness Syndicate rort

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Jack Sprat...

 

You describe my posting as "hogwash" and then produce absolutely no evidence to back up your allegation.

You are providing the pig swill in this discussion...hysteria, allegation, innuendo, accusation...all without doing any research and all without foundation.

 

I have been forced to repeat some parts of the discussion as the relevant malicious lies keep being repeated.

 

If my maths is flawed, please explain the flaws. I am backing my mathetical ability in this matter...now back your statement.

 

I have no idea what "doubling your output" means in this context as I have only responded in my previous posting to what has been actually said by another.

 

 As to "playing the man instead of the ball", I responded in kind. I am capable of descending to the level of another when required and sometimes disappoint myself when I do so...not on this occasion.

 

Clearly, you are unable to conceal your biased approach to the matter at hand.

 

Further, please delineate my "flawed lines"...i'm always looking to learn.

 

I don't get "blue in the face". I look at any matter at hand and deal with it in a rational and objective manner... in the main.

I ask that you adopt a similar approach when looking at this syndication instead of attaching the sins of others to your viewpoint and running with bigotry.

 

Regards.

Ashoka

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Hogwash #1
Let's stick with your example of 200 shares being sold, and the seemingly reasonable cost estimates from the original post.

The total outlay over the life of the syndicate will be around $230k. Take away the $100k from the sale of 200 shares, and you're left with a shortfall of $130k. In return for covering this shortfall, the promoters will retain 80% of all stakemoney, and 80% of the sale price of the horses when the syndicate is wound up.

The potential loss of $140k that you speak of, is purely a figment of your "creative" accounting, and couldn't happen even if both horses retired penniless, and worthless!

The horses would only need to be moderately successful, and retain a portion of their original value, for the promoters to get the "free ride" that apparently isn't available.

There is of course the possibility that more than 200 shares will sell, in which case the "free ride" will kick in much earlier!

Hogwash #2
Your insistence that the trotter was by Muscles Yankee had some bearing on it's value at the time of the sale, by which time it's ability had to speak for itself, is ludicrous in the extreme.

And to then suggest that the costs incurred in breeding a horse, have some bearing on it's value several years later, is optimistic as it is naive. Breeding is an important factor in the sale ring, but once a horse steps out on the racetrack, his mummy and his daddy can't help him any more!

The world is full of well bred horses that have graced the inside of pet food cans. I'll take the mongrel bred trotter that can run 1.58 over a Muscles Yankee that can trot 2.02 any day of the week!

Hogwash #3
To somehow conclude that the need for a serious surgical procedure doesn't affect the current value of a horse, and that the downgrade in value is somehow a slight on the veterinary professional, is mind boggling.

Any competent vet will stress the element of risk involved in even the most basic of surgical procedures, and common sense would suggest that the higher up the scale of risk you go, the more the value of the horse drops.

Hogwash #4
You attempt to denigrate the opinions of Racecafe users, (unsuccessfully I might add) yet choose to participate yourself. Internet forums such as this simple spread the word about dodgy practices a lot faster than in the past. Hence this very debate, which I should thank you for keeping at the top of the page..

Anti-Hogwash
You'll notice that though out this post, I haven't felt the need to resort to the use of big words to increase my self importance, nor made any insulting remarks about your level of education, mental capacity, living arrangements, honesty, integriry, or personal hygiene.
 

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As an aside to this thread , I note some 6 people are noted on the "Testimonial" page with general quotes re Harness Synd.

 

Now I am a regular in Syndications ,currently I am in a few both Gallops and Harness.

 

However I have never been a member of the 3 under this group ,yet I am quoted.

In fact I am pretty sure 4 of the folk quoted would be talking from their ATC synd experiences.

Personally I am not fussed about being quoted ,as I can [kind of] see the association.

 

I believe the facts,figures,risks,rewards etc are spelled out and it is up to the individual to decide if its for them.

These huge synd. give a slight taste of horse involvement/ownership and maybe a little incentive to attend a few more meetings etc and to meet some new folk.

Personally I'd spend a little more and go for one with less shares !!!

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some quotes from John Robinson here

 

http://www.southlandharness.co.nz/stories/story1/34

 

Double the Fun Set To Fly (Monday 19th August 2013)

 


Bruce Stewart

 


Registered syndicator Noel Kennard is venturing into the Southland harness market by launching a new syndicate with two horses, one of which is trained in the province.

 

The Double The Fun Syndicate which commenced earlier this month is looking to sell 1000 shares in Western Art trained by Nigel McGrath and Astro Boy trained at Ryal Bush by Hamish Hunter.

 

Both horses have been purchased for big money by Kennard who hopes Southlanders will come on board and enjoy the fun of racing two well bred, ready made race horses.

"By the time you purchase two horses for five figure amounts, insure them, train them for two years and with all the marketing there's no coin left over from $500,000. The reason we purchased the two horses is because it's no use buying a horse for ten to fifteen grand that will win a race and that's it. We wanted to buy horses that had the ability to be very good horses and perhaps race for good money."said goharness Sales and Marketing Manager John Robinson.

 

Astro Boy was the first horse bought by Kennard for this syndicate after impressing at workouts and a trial. He was trained by respected trainer Gerard O'Reilly and trialed by Canterbury trainer Nigel McGrath.

"We enlisted Nigel to trial horses. The first one he trialed was Astro Boy and we bought him straight away. He trialed another six before we bought Western Art. When we bought Astro Boy off Gerard he'd won two workouts and a trial and we were very excited and those thoughts have been echoed by Hamish. He said he was a very smart horse."

 


Astro Boy is part of the first crop from Kindergarten Stakes winner Ohoka Arizona (Christian Cullen) while Western Art a three year old colt by Art Major, will stay with McGrath in Canterbury.

 

To join Double The Fun syndicate costs only $500. And this is a one off payment with no other costs incurred in the two seasons the horses will race.

"The horses must be sold after the two years. At the end of their four year old season all the stake money and the sale money is divided out to the syndicate members. If they want, syndicate members can form another syndicate and buy the horses. At that age the horses are still a saleable item with a good market in Australia."

 


Noel Kennard under the goharness banner has already had success with his first two syndicates. The In It For Fun Syndicate race Franco Harrison which had foot problems, but is back in full work and is due to be back at the races in September. The second syndicate, Trotting Is Fun races Saratoga.

"We had little response from Southland in the first two syndicates so thats why we have put one of the horses is in the Southland region with Hamish."

Western Art is still to qualify while Astro Boy is expected to debut at Winton early next month, and Robinson is hoping more Southlanders will get on board once they see Astro Boy race.

"This is a great way to race horses. You can try before you buy. The new syndicate rules allow you to race a horse before all the shares are sold."

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As an aside to this thread , I note some 6 people are noted on the "Testimonial" page with general quotes re Harness Synd.

 

 

However I have never been a member of the 3 under this group ,yet I am quoted.

In fact I am pretty sure 4 of the folk quoted would be talking from their ATC synd experiences.

 

 

 

Well there you go. If this is true, and it isn't another Gary Williams from Nelson and his ATC synd friends, then visitors to the GoHarness site are being, at least partially, misled under the title "What other people are saying about GoHarness Syndication."

 

Gary, can you please follow up with any of the others on that page and ask if they provided those quotes to Go Harness after entering syndicates with them? Lorna Hogan is a member of Racecafe isn't she? "HogieHorse" .. maybe she could shed some light.

 

 

 

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"By the time you purchase two horses for five figure amounts, insure them, train them for two years and with all the marketing there's no coin left over from $500,000."

 

Going on the figures in the disclosure statement and standardised insurance and training rates, they must be spending at least $250,000 on marketing.

 

Right.

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Hogwash #1

Let's stick with your example of 200 shares being sold, and the seemingly reasonable cost estimates from the original post.

The total outlay over the life of the syndicate will be around $230k. Take away the $100k from the sale of 200 shares, and you're left with a shortfall of $130k. In return for covering this shortfall, the promoters will retain 80% of all stakemoney, and 80% of the sale price of the horses when the syndicate is wound up.

The potential loss of $140k that you speak of, is purely a figment of your "creative" accounting, and couldn't happen even if both horses retired penniless, and worthless!

The horses would only need to be moderately successful, and retain a portion of their original value, for the promoters to get the "free ride" that apparently isn't available.

There is of course the possibility that more than 200 shares will sell, in which case the "free ride" will kick in much earlier!

Hogwash #2

Your insistence that the trotter was by Muscles Yankee had some bearing on it's value at the time of the sale, by which time it's ability had to speak for itself, is ludicrous in the extreme.

And to then suggest that the costs incurred in breeding a horse, have some bearing on it's value several years later, is optimistic as it is naive. Breeding is an important factor in the sale ring, but once a horse steps out on the racetrack, his mummy and his daddy can't help him any more!

The world is full of well bred horses that have graced the inside of pet food cans. I'll take the mongrel bred trotter that can run 1.58 over a Muscles Yankee that can trot 2.02 any day of the week!

Hogwash #3

To somehow conclude that the need for a serious surgical procedure doesn't affect the current value of a horse, and that the downgrade in value is somehow a slight on the veterinary professional, is mind boggling.

Any competent vet will stress the element of risk involved in even the most basic of surgical procedures, and common sense would suggest that the higher up the scale of risk you go, the more the value of the horse drops.

Hogwash #4

You attempt to denigrate the opinions of Racecafe users, (unsuccessfully I might add) yet choose to participate yourself. Internet forums such as this simple spread the word about dodgy practices a lot faster than in the past. Hence this very debate, which I should thank you for keeping at the top of the page..

Anti-Hogwash

You'll notice that though out this post, I haven't felt the need to resort to the use of big words to increase my self importance, nor made any insulting remarks about your level of education, mental capacity, living arrangements, honesty, integriry, or personal hygiene.

 

 

Well done. You saved me having to write it all out. 

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Well there you go. If this is true, and it isn't another Gary Williams from Nelson and his ATC synd friends, then visitors to the GoHarness site are being, at least partially, misled under the title "What other people are saying about GoHarness Syndication."

 

Gary, can you please follow up with any of the others on that page and ask if they provided those quotes to Go Harness after entering syndicates with them? Lorna Hogan is a member of Racecafe isn't she? "HogieHorse" .. maybe she could shed some light.

 

 

 

Just to let you know that I have never been part of Go Harness Syndication, and do not intend to be.  Gary is correct in stating that those four testimonials are in fact relating to our involvement in the ATC Syndicates.  

 

I do recall some years back at the time Changeover was racing that Noel Kennard interviewed me and the others and there was an article in some sort of publication (KRAFT  ;) !!!) from which my "testimonial" has obviously been taken.

 

Hope that clears it up.

 

LH

 

 

 

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Ashoka, I suggest you read the disclosure statement of this syndicate very carefully.

 

For $500, syndicate members are rightfully entitled to a 1/500th share in the no-further-payments package.

 

This figure comfortably allows every single expenditure to be covered that you could imagine (barring, perhaps, airfares) as well as $30,000 in marketing and management fees for the organisers. This is fair and reasonable to anyone involved.

 

Instead, people are getting a 1/1000th share. This is unavoidable and irregardless of how many shares are sold.

 

There will be no loss to the organiser if 50% are sold... all your sums are moot as you cannot account for Kennard paying $500 per share, when he himself is only guaranteeing the equivalent of $250 per share!!!!

 

I am not going to go back over the old ground that JackSprat has succinctly covered.

 

There has been a revelation below that at least one of the six quotees on their testimonials page is not a shareholder in any syndicate.

How do this stack up with what you say about business integrity?

 

How am I odious or malicious and especially gutless for sound-board some VERY REAL and SERIOUS concerns that I and many others have with this syndicate? Because you say and your mate say uncle noel is a bastion of integrity, that is the end of discussion is it? No one is allowed to question anything?
 
Another thing. The valuation of a horse's value as a going concern has nothing to do with what the horse has cost to date and especially irrelevant is the service fee. Sure, the original owner may well price it according to what he is owed to date, and that is their prerogative, but that does not make it the horses value. If it was a license to print money... every one would be doing it. How many horses have you purchased in your lifetime? I have purchased well over 100 horses and feel suitably qualified to comment on a horse's value.
 
Finally, what value do you place on Saratoga now? He has had two operation of two seperate legs in 12 months, for the same condition. Still worth $63,000? He's by Muscles Yankee after all  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

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Just to let you know that I have never been part of Go Harness Syndication, and do not intend to be.  Gary is correct in stating that those four testimonials are in fact relating to our involvement in the ATC Syndicates.  

 

I do recall some years back at the time Changeover was racing that Noel Kennard interviewed me and the others and there was an article in some sort of publication (KRAFT  ;) !!!) from which my "testimonial" has obviously been taken.

 

Hope that clears it up.

 

LH

 

 

Thanks, Lorna. I'm not surprised to read this. It seems to be in-line with the whole set-up.

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and your contribution was.....

less than yours

entrenched views need little direction ...... the path is closed

the thread is boring - full of personal attacks as substance missing

the most boring thread on this site for years

but hey, carry on ..... promote the cheats on seats industry .. there is a consistency there

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This thread has been done to death

Can we flag it and move on?

 

There are a few people who would just love for that to happen!

 

One sure way to fix any problem is to sweep it under the carpet, and pretend there's nothing wrong ..... not! And this syndicate is definitely a problem, with many unanswered questions, and you have the gall to say "flag it and move on". What about those Hanover Finance guys, were they hard done by too!

 

I doubt that I'm the only who's totally unsurprised by the deafening silence of the pro-syndicate lobby!

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There are a few people who would just love for that to happen!

 

One sure way to fix any problem is to sweep it under the carpet, and pretend there's nothing wrong ..... not! And this syndicate is definitely a problem, with many unanswered questions, and you have the gall to say "flag it and move on". What about those Hanover Finance guys, were they hard done by too!

 

I doubt that I'm the only who's totally unsurprised by the deafening silence of the pro-syndicate lobby!

I agree this thread has gone off the rails and I may have contributed to it.

 

My comments were relative to theTrotters Syndicate when the initial posts and criticisms were relative to the ambitious two horse 1000 shares syndicate of which I have no experience and cannot comment.

 

My posts re the trotters were to defend Noel as a Registered Syndicator not a charleton and his enthusiasm and credibility.

 

The pro syndicate Trotters lobby are silent as they have no cause for complaint. They read the prospectus with ageing eyes and paid their $500 gst inclusive and are paying their $50 per month.

 

In return they had the thrill of owning a royally bred sire from a World Champion. Toga hasd winning form prior to purchase, won a race for us at the Mot and ran second in a Group 1 race on only three legs.The pro lobby also attended the 3yoTrotters Derby but sadly Toga pulled up lame.

 

Extensive vet tests after this showed he had bone chips which the VETS presale inspection did not reveal.

 

Not Noels fault as some have said in buying a horse from a mate with a flaw at the syndicators expense..

 

Backing these wins and placings up is a life time racing leasse on normal terms of three royally bred two year old fillies who want to trot, according to the trainers recent reports. 

 

Please dont use words like "rorts' relative to a genuine Registered Syndicator  and cast aspersions on their credibility, as mud sadly sticks.

 

Let Toga and the fillies do the talking on the track in the future and perhaps reconvene these discussions in 12 months time..

 

Consider my opinion as that representative of the pro lobby having purchased shares myself, regardless of being the leasse and as some would say I have a vested interest.

 

Email me on ivan@cawl.co.nz and I will see if I can use my position to influence the pro lobby to make a share available to you, which may have a premium attached.?

 

I CONSIDER THE POSTS CLOSED.GOOD NITE.

 

Ivan W Mc Nicholl

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There are a few people who would just love for that to happen!

 

One sure way to fix any problem is to sweep it under the carpet, and pretend there's nothing wrong ..... not! And this syndicate is definitely a problem, with many unanswered questions, and you have the gall to say "flag it and move on". What about those Hanover Finance guys, were they hard done by too!

 

I doubt that I'm the only who's totally unsurprised by the deafening silence of the pro-syndicate lobby!

I have no financial or commercial interest in the Syndicate -one way or the other 

I have no interest in the "Cheats on Seats" - the words are self explanatory 

The thread is boring - the offer is clearly explained - it is up to the buyers

Caveat Emptor

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My view.....for what it is worth.....is that the promoters have had a sincere desire to involve as many people to dabble in the 'excitement' of horse ownership.

For many this just isn't possible as owning horses is a very expensive hobby.......here is a synd where it does become possible ,a small outlay and no further payments.....throw in the social events ,maybe a group trip to a stable or a rendezvous with horse and trainer and their full attention at a workout at Addington etc etc 

And when the horse races ,a few hundred extra on course to help diminishing crowds plus some food and drink sales.

 

I just think the promoters may have been too cautious with their calculations ....even Synd looking at 50 shares are having trouble selling all shares, I know of one of 100 shares where only 70% shares sold.

The promoter is left carrying the can for unsold shares ,and if it involves 3 or 4 horses the costs can escalate quickly.

Hence often considerable $ are spent on advtg/marketing them etc.

Throw in the various NOM fees for series and bonus schemes and the possibility of endless travel[poss Australia] ,plus the Acctg,audit requirements of synd and costs can get away on you ,even before serious but not career-ending injuries strike.

 

I'd be very careful with how I approached a 'one-payment' type synd as well ,espec if filling say 60% of it could be a problem.

 

There are several other possibilities for those who wish to try 'ownership' ,none as dirt cheap as this tho.

 

I see no justification for 'hammering' away endlessly at these people.

 

Horse valuation is always an interesting one.....owners always over value their horses in their mind......even the 'cost of production' method is often waaayyy too high.

A slow horse is worth diddly -squat.

At least if you buy at auction the original cost is known ,but then there is the long wait from yearling sales to racetime that is a source of frustration.

Another possibility is to lease the horses ,so no original cost and if they come from big stud or caring owner sometimes they can be replaced if injured or too slow to qualify.

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There is a double page promotion for this in the latest "Canterbury Farming" in the mail today.

As a matter of interest, the horses were purchased for $58k and $50k plus GST and commissions.

Add 2 years training costs, feed, insurance, marketing, sundries ( racing colours, website..?! ) and the well is dry.....apparently.

HRNZ audit all costs though - if that gives you any comfort...

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less than yours

entrenched views need little direction ...... the path is closed

the thread is boring - full of personal attacks as substance missing

the most boring thread on this site for years

but hey, carry on ..... promote the cheats on seats industry .. there is a consistency there

 

You are not forced to read the thread if you're bored turny, and the personal attacks are pretty minor really.

 

Most boring thread on this site for years? That's the biggest over exaggeration I've read on this site for years!!

 

The thread has got contributions, plenty of them, and opposing viewpoints. That's what a Discussion Board is supposed to contain, isn't it? And it's something this Board has been sadly bereft of in recent times.  

 

As for promoting the "cheats on seats" industry, this is a Harness Discussion Board. If you're not interested in the sport, piss off somewhere else.

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Jack Sprat...

 

Hogwash #1

 

Each share will return the same amount at the end of the Syndicate life regardless of who owns it.

Bills are paid with real money..."money" from unsold shares is ephemeral.

If the money from the sale of syndicate shares fails to cover the costs incurred against any stakemoney won, then Mr Kennard, as the Syndicate underwriter, will incur a loss on this venture.

In the current economic climate, that is a real possiblity and the reason why nobody else is attempting to do this.

Given the number of smart-but-shifty types I have encountered in my time in the racing industry, if this was the easy money you suggest that it is, there would be a queue stretching around a very large block trying to get in on the action.

 

Hogwash #2

 

If it was as easy to judge a horse's potential while it is a three-year-old as you suggest, this game would be easy.

When assessing the potential of a three-year-old, you say it's performance to date is the major consideration.

Have you actually had a good look at Saratoga's early performances? He showed plenty of upside.

I believe that breeding is a major factor when assessing a three-year-old as a trotter can race on for many more years, with some only realising their full potential at six, seven and even later. You say to disregard breeding in these circumstances...I say that you are crazy. Our opinions differ. It may or may not be relevant that I think a lot of people are crazy.

 

Hogwash #3

 

I have never said that surgery is not a factor when assessing a horse's value. It most certainly is.

You have misunderstood my reference to veterinary care.

This horse was assessed by the relevant professional vet as having had fully-successful surgery. In other words, the vet's opinion was that the need for surgery would not affect the horse in the future. Nothing in life is guaranteed and that goes double when a horse in involved. The vet said that the horse is fine and he was purchased for a fair price based on that assessment.

You appear to be saying that Mr Kennard needs to be clairvoyant when purchasing a horse for a syndicate.

The details about the horse were fully available to everyone before they decided whether or not to invest.That is the best that can be done.

The fair price, $60K, assessment is based on the potential earning power seen in the said horse. When assessing potential, I would take into account the breeding of the animal in question. If you wouldn't...well...good luck to you for you will definitely need luck as I think you judgement skills are all to hell.

 

Hogwash #4

 

I have not denigrated RaceCafe participants.

I enjoy reading the posts on the various topics very much indeed and I appreciate the opportunity of learning that this reading affords me.

I post what I believe to be the truth and stand behind my opinons until I have been proved wrong. 

I think that is what nearly all of us do.

I do have an opinion of posters who post in unnecessary ignorance and my reference to them in this thread is not an indiscriminate comment on all posters.

 

Hogwash #5

 

I use the English language in my own way, as do all of us. If my usage offends you, that's regrettable and that's all. 

Your reference to self-importance is simply inane.

When provoked, I have responded in kind as I am wont to do and I make no apologies for this

 

The quote from John Robinson is a little surprising. However, given what I have spent on standardbred ownership over the years, I am not prepared to say that he is definitely wrong. The salient point is that it is highly unlikely that the sum of money he is referencing is going to be available. 

 

All the best.

Ashoka

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Toblerone...

 

Each share is worth the same amount regardless of who owns it.

If the amount required to pay the Syndicate bills exceeds that gained from Syndicate shares sold and the earnings of the two horses, and this is a real possibility, then Mr Kennard, as the Syndicate underwriter, will lose money on this venture.

I took the liberty of ringing Mr Kennard in order to confirm my understanding of this matter prior to my last posting on this subject.

 

You started this thread with the title "Harness Syndicate rort". That is not the title for a discussion. That is the title of a character assassination. This may not have been your intention but it is what you did.

 

You say that you have purchased well over 100 horses. You say that, when assessing a horse as a going concern, you don't consider their breeding or the service fee. I believe you but I have to say that I find this extraordinary.

 

The price of $60,000 is fair given that the horse had a full veterinary clearance. Muscles Yankee has proved himself to be one of the most significant sires in the history of trotting. Is he worth $60K now? That depends on the veterinary prognosis after the latest surgery. If he returns to the track sound, then he is worth every cent.

 

I find the references matter surprising.

I rang Mr Kennard again and Mr Robinson on this matter.

They are going to look into this and correct any anomalies.

Mr Kennard assures me that he has a stack of references from happy clients and I believe him.

 

I covered Central Districts harness racing for the NZ Harness Racing Weekly for ten years and I also covered Hutt Park harness racing for the then Dominion newspaper for eight years. I have been actively following horse racing for over forty-two years. I have had ownership interests for twenty-seven years and been involved in racing administration for twenty-one years. I have had contact in one way or another with a significant number of industry participants. I very rarely reference individuals when commenting on harness racing in general. I have had dealings with Mr Kennard for around twenty years and, until this thread, I had heard nothing negative about him at all. This is not the norm and is the reason why I have responded as I have.

 

Cheers.

Ashoka

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Re Hogwash # All of the above

A few things you might have missed while you "covered Central Districts harness racing for the NZ Harness Racing Weekly for ten years and I also covered Hutt Park harness racing for the then Dominion newspaper for eight years. I have been actively following horse racing for over forty-two years. I have had ownership interests for twenty-seven years and been involved in racing administration for twenty-one years."

  • By the time a horse is 3yo, it's breeding is virtually irrelevant - that's why the 3 or 4 stables on either side of the Tasman with the biggest cheque books buy up all the fastest young stock, not the best bred ones. Smoken Up and Im Themightyquin weren't bought because of how they were bred!
  • Any surgery, and I do mean any surgery has a dramatic effect on the value of a horse. With the benefit of hindsight, and being able to see how a horse recovers from the surgery, that effect is mitigated, but to quote a good friend of mine who buys and sells more horses than most in this country, "The moment you stick a knife in a horse, you move the decimal point in his value, one place to the left."
  • If this syndicate model does take off, I'm sure it will become a vehicle for many a charlatan, however in it's present format, I can't see that happening.
  • Your use of the english language doesn't offend me in the slightest. On the contrary, it brings joy to my day, and conjures up images of the television show "Upstairs, Downstairs", and how us mere Racecafers can aspire to the upper floors!

 

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Some of the responses in here are a sign of why harness racing will eventually disappear in NZ if you don't change your attitude.  Tolberone points out a rort to the sum of a possible $250,000. Not just a couple of thousand .....$250,000!!!!  And what attitude does Tolberone mostly encounter?  "If people buy into it tough luck for them."  How can you have this attitude and yet claim to care about getting new owners involved?  Why don't HRNZ just change their slogan to "Screw the punter and screw the small time owner" and be honest.......

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