the chippy 2 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 Read it again. Even the person who makes the stuff acknowledges that it is NOT a performance enhancer. So myo-inositol trispyrophosphate (ITPP), a product which increases the oxygen level in a horse's tissues by 35%, is in your mind not a performance enhancing drug? The racing industry worldwide would beg to differ with you. Why would a trainer have been willing to spend $2000 on it I wonder ? ) hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 Read it again. Even the person who makes the stuff acknowledges that it is NOT a performance enhancer. You really dont seem to know what your talking about.Have you even bothered to read my previous posts. Heres another comment just for you.Now keep in mind ive previously stated that australian racing authorities have issued press releases that arsenic is a known component of itpp. Can you name the Cambridge trained horse, trained by a certain woman ,who returned a positive to arsenic at last years jewels. And the answer is .Precious mach.Trainer (now lets think) i think her first name was nicky. hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichter 4 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 What A Post You are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. And when you start posting this sort of defamatory nonsense it can't go unanswered. Despite what you have read online, you are only perpetuating a mistake that was made some time ago by an Australian reporter. Arsenic is not a component of ITPP. I quote Australian Dr John Vine, laboratory director of Racing Analytical Services in Victoria: "Internet suggestions that arsenic is a component of ITPP are as nonsensical as saying a banana is a component of an apple.'' The arsenic detected in the swabs from Delightful Christian and Precious Mach came from the use of the common tonic Caco Iron Copper. The Chippy You too are talking bollocks. No studies have been done on the effect of ITPP in horses and just because it might help mice in the laboratory does not mean it would do so in a horse. You obviously missed this: In an affidavit, the world's leading authority on the drug, Kentucky Professor Tom Tobin, said he believed anyone who had bought, or attempted to buy ITPP had been victims of a sophisticated commercial fraud. "ITPP has a completely undeserved reputation as a performance-enhancing substance," Tobin said. Tobin, whose lab synthesised the drug in September, 2012, and sent it to Hong Kong as their forensic standard, says he does not believe ITPP has ever been available commercially, and he says it is unlikely that it would even work. While ITPP, theoretically, could be performance enhancing, it would have to be administered in huge doses, 250 times greater than that recommended by the internet vendors. Some improvement had been shown in the oxygen releasing ability of haemoglobin in laboratory mice with heart disease, but that did not mean it would work in a 450kg horse. It was highly unlikely to be absorbed in any significant amount after oral administration. Midget 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chippy 2 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 The Chippy You too are talking bollocks. No studies have been done on the effect of ITPP in horses and just because it might help mice in the laboratory does not mean it would do so in a horse. You obviously missed this: In an affidavit, the world's leading authority on the drug, Kentucky Professor Tom Tobin, said he believed anyone who had bought, or attempted to buy ITPP had been victims of a sophisticated commercial fraud. "ITPP has a completely undeserved reputation as a performance-enhancing substance," Tobin said. Tobin, whose lab synthesised the drug in September, 2012, and sent it to Hong Kong as their forensic standard, says he does not believe ITPP has ever been available commercially, and he says it is unlikely that it would even work. While ITPP, theoretically, could be performance enhancing, it would have to be administered in huge doses, 250 times greater than that recommended by the internet vendors. Some improvement had been shown in the oxygen releasing ability of haemoglobin in laboratory mice with heart disease, but that did not mean it would work in a 450kg horse. It was highly unlikely to be absorbed in any significant amount after oral administration. If that is correct and it is useless then why would someone have paid big money to try and bring it in illegally? (unless they wanted to feed it to mice) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedley 1,900 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 ..You sound like you Lichter., apologising like's become the bastion~practice of the FourthEstate generally, the last 3 decades. you Sound like a t.v.One so-called, journalist/reporter...yet again explaining National party mantra and policy. thTrots are 'shat'...because the punter has watched on televised racing, what they suspected was going on before each race was televised, and the hitherto apologies for the likes of Smallman and His contempt for the punter, and all that Changeover crap, has found us examining the culture even More than we thought we had to be doing., because no other bastard Charged with the position to look after the Punters, has had the neutrality, nor the balls to Do so., and so We've had a gutsfull., "o.K!" ITTP is probabley..'an Island'...where it can mask., if not further cloud 'the muddy waters' of analysis, other crap being used. ..and i say an Island, because when it comes to the Courtcase, this "harmless" "substanceless"..Flumox, is the road Gone down by the defence council/lawers., and another bastard escapes justice, And has already pocketed the hapless punter's dough, "Savvy!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby13 74 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 I find this interesting. On the one hand the drug may have been misrepresented and the person of interest has been misled into believing it has some enhancing properties for a horses performance. On the other hand it may be that it is used as a masking agent to hide the use of other enhancing agents. Either way the person of interest has shown a propensity to disregard the rules and try to garner an advantage through illegal means,and been caught Redhanded. The motive was clear, when are we going to see some Justice prevail in these matters. Nothing really has changed since the bad ole days,its just now a bit more sophisticated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 Mr LIchter I have read several articles on the internet which stated arsenic was a component of itpp.Reporters bredan cormick,nicholas godfrey,paulick report are some of those to have written such articles.I even read a news release on the harness nsw website as to the same.If you are saying they all got it wrong then sobeit.It just goes to show you cant believe what you read in the papers. Now can you clarify this for me. You appear to be saying that she spent a large amount of money trying to import a substance marketed as a performance enhancer and known to be illegal,but that she had no intention of using it to improve the performance of horses she trained as just because tests on mice showed increased oxygen levels,that did not mean it would help her horses. Feel free to clarify this if im wrong. You also state the positive to arsenic was a result of the use of a tonic.Well its a shame for those disqualified in nsw for similar positives to arsenic werent treated the same as over here ,isnt it. Lastly . Can you tell me how she is getting on with her defence to the positive to the powerful pain killer Tramadol,returned in a swab. taken from precious mach.? Clobber 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichter 4 Report post Posted July 8, 2013 What A Post 1. They did all get it wrong. And why am I so sure? Because I made exactly the same mistake, before correcting it, when researching this topic last year. What it does confirm is you can't take for gospel what you read on the internet. There is absolutely no doubt that arsenic is not a component of ITPP. 2. You, like most other people on this website, continually state that ITPP is illegal. Under the NZ rules of harness racing, it is neither illegal to possess, OR USE, ITPP on a horse in training. That was confirmed last week by HRNZ chief executive Edward Rennell. It is, however, deemed to be a prohibited substance if detected in a raceday sample. But, again, almost everyone here does not understand the meaning of a "prohibited substance." It is called prohibited but that does not mean it is banned from use. HRNZ is currently undergoing a review of ITPP to see if it should be reclassified as banned even out of competition. I doubt that anyone who has fallen victim to what Professor Tobin called a "worldwide scam" and tried to buy ITPP would have researched the scientific papers, namely the French study which found ITPP boosted the exercise levels of mice with heart failure. In the words of Professor Tobin: "There is no objective evidence whatsoever of ITPP being used anywhere in the world as a performance altering substance in racing horses. Rather, there are worldwide rumors that ITPP is a potent performance altering substance, and unscrupulous individuals advertise and/or market materials supposedly containing ITPP to naive and unsophisticated individuals worldwide, capitalizing on these worldwide rumors.'' 3. As far as I am aware no charges have yet been laid in the tramadol case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigious 111 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 To be honest. This is nowhere near the top end of offending. We all know the real stuff being used. In the end you reap as you sow. The American thoroughbred industry is dwarfed by the European industry because of their appalling use of substances, which have devalued and debased their bloodstock. The same is now happening with trotters. What goes around comes around. hedley 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka 1,179 Report post Posted July 9, 2013 Prodigious... I presume that, when you use the word "trotters" towards the end of your piece, you actually mean "standardbreds". As a fan, particularly of the straight-out trotter, I certainly hope so. Cheers. Ashoka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahmcl 69 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 email my partner received from Nicky Chilcott Dear valued client, I wanted to reassure you that it is business as usual at White Star Stables, despite the malicious talk out there about my recent court case. The last few months have been trying emotionally but I continue to put my horses first and to do my very best by each and every one of them. It was my very determination to ensure that you, my owners, were not being ripped off by wickedly inflated prices for everyday medicines, that landed me in trouble with the Ministry For Primary Industries. The Ministry for who? I can hear you say. Yes, well, I hadn't heard of them either before this business escalated out of all proportion. If you haven't followed the case, it all started when I brought some electrolytes into the country last year - ironically, for another trainer - and did not declare them because I didn't think they were medicines. Instead of simply confiscating them, and giving me a warning or instant fine like you see on that TV show Border Control, they launched a big operation as if I was a heroine dealer which resulted in my being charged with trying to import medicines not licensed for use here. None of this stuff was illegal under racing rules, despite what you might have seen in the papers. They were medicines to keep your horses healthy, almost identical to ones you can buy here. I know all my owners are feeling the financial pressure of paying training fees with costs going up all the time and I did not see why you should be billed $130 for Caco Iron Copper, for example, when I could buy it online for $17 from Australia. The trouble is while perfectly legitimate, some of these medicines are not registered for use here, because their manufacturers don't want to spend what can be anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000 to have all the tests done to get government approval. Maybe I should have checked to see if they were licensed here - as if I have the time to go through all that red tape! - but I simply took the word of the exporters that they sent their meds routinely to New Zealand and Australia without problem. Unfortunately, when TVNZ covered the case last week, their reporter got it all wrong and basically sensationalised her story to say I had admitted smuggling in a doping agent from Australia and that I had given a performance enhancer to a champion I trained. I wish I had that supposed champion she talked about! My lawyers have already laid formal complaints with both TVNZ and the District Court judge who sat on the case and if we do not get a satisfactory apology we will have to consider suing TVNZ for defamation. Thankfully all reporters aren't as bad as this one and an accurate report of what happened appeared in the Sunday Star-Times last week. When the judge delivered his decision on Friday, he categorically rejected suggestions that I was a drug cheat, and accepted that media coverage had adversely affected what he called my otherwise "impeccable reputation." The judge said he was satisfied that I would never endanger the safety of my horses nor endanger my livelihood by using any substances on raceday that might lead to my licence being revoked. And he basically sent a message to Harness Racing New Zealand to that effect, saying that in the pending review of my licence they had to take into account his judgment, which was about as far as he could go to influence them, according to my lawyer. I pleaded guilty to the charges of trying to import this stuff so it was logical that I be convicted but the judge discharged me without any penalty, which I reckon sends out the right message. I am not a drug cheat, and never will be, and I hope you will continue to support me in the future and appreciate that any results I manage to get with your horses are through nothing more than hard work. Regards, Nicky Chilcot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
what a post 811 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 Look ,i had thought ive said enough about this subject but having read this latest post i wondered about a couple of things. In paragraph 8 of Nicky Chilcots letter to clients she uses "Caco iron copper" as an example of the difference in prices of products she could pay here compared to overseas. Yet this is the product that she says returned the positive to arsenic.Maybe its got a with holding period or something on it now,but if i was her i wouldnt ever want to see it again. The other thing that i dont understand refers to Mr Lichters reply where he stated " it is neither illegal to possess or use itpp on a horse in training" , Surely thats academic. Why would anyone use this substance on a horse in training,and have no intention of using it at the races. What a waste of money that would be! That one just doesnt make any sense to me and never will. What is clear is she does have a loyal bunch of people supporting her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichter 4 Report post Posted July 10, 2013 What A Post If it helps give you peace of mind: 1. Caco Iron Copper is the most commonly used tonic by both harness and galloping trainers, and has been for more than 30 years. You are correct in your assumption that they now follow a withholding time recommended by vets. 2. There are numerous "prohibited substances" that people use on horses in training but not on raceday. Evidence given in court by Chilcott was that she would have assumed ITPP was a prohibited substance ie. it could not be used to enhance a horse's performance on raceday. She said she believed it would help horses recover after racing and was a good product to use to help get the best out of them in training. Expert testimony during the hearing suggested it would almost certainly have done neither. You could compare this situation to trainers here who use Lasix on their horses in training to prevent them from bleeding, but make sure it is not in the horse's system come raceday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...